Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (Full Version)

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WiZz -> Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 4:47:14 PM)

Hi to all.

In my games I met such situation. I found a beautiful planet in enemy territory and I can't colonizing it. It's normal, when my empire is not at war with owner of this system. But when I declared war I can't still colonize a planet.

I reproduced this situation in the editor few times with the same result.

I also uploaded savefile on your FTP. Filename is Isseun Conformity 2754-03-14.zip



Fideach -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 4:53:03 PM)

I would say that is how it is suppose to work. Rather or not you are at war with them, the planet is still with in there territory of control. You have to out there sphere of influence in that area by taking over the enemy colony that gives them control of that area.



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 5:21:30 PM)

No war should trigger the lift of all territory restrictions. The devs already confirmed that.



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 5:31:47 PM)

As for me I don't understand need of this border system entirely. Let's think, how can enemy empire stop my miners and colonizers if opponent doesn't have any military in a system?
In my opinion, border system must work in that way: AI or I can ALWAYS mine, colonize, build a station at the planet in the opponent spheres of influence but with a large diplomatic/reputation penalty. If I/AI attack enemy/my miner or colonizer in my/his own system I/AI get no penalty to my/his reputation. Only relations with attacked empires break down.



Cauldyth -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 6:01:00 PM)

You can mine, colonize or build a station at any planet in an opponent sphere of influence, it's just considered an act of war. Thus, once you declare war, you can proceed to do any of those things (once they fix the bug).



Mysterius -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 6:08:58 PM)

It's not really considered an act of war. It's just a (potentially huge) relationship hit. Also, you can't colonize at all in the sphere of another empire (afaik).

I like it better this way. The galaxy is much more "territorial" and it adds a lot to the strategic possibilities (for example, colonize a crappy planet only to secure a segment of the galaxy).



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 6:10:25 PM)

I mean to do this things without declaring war...



Locarnus -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 6:31:54 PM)

I concur with WiZz.
Colonizing and building mining stations should be possible within others influence spheres.
Their needs to be a setting, for which empires the ai should not care about influence spheres, or leave for manual colonization/mining.

When the colonial powers in earth history set out to build a mine or a colony in africa, they didnt ask for permission. They just saw that the owners/sphere holders over there could not enforce their spheres against them. Then the original owners had to "attack" the colonizers to take back what was theirs in the first place (of course nearly all of them failed, because the colonizers did this only to those who could not protect their property in the first place).

Thats how it works in reality.
A sphere is a claim, it has little value if you can not support it (eg by force).
Imagine an empire having only 1 colony left, but no military. Its rediculous that you have to take over that colony to access the 20 systems in their "sphere".



Cauldyth -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 6:49:10 PM)

quote:

It's not really considered an act of war. It's just a (potentially huge) relationship hit. Also, you can't colonize at all in the sphere of another empire (afaik).


That's my point. You can colonize if you declare war (once the bug is fixed). Therefore, you are perfectly able to colonize within another empire's sphere, it's just considered an act of war, and you must declare war in order to proceed. (Again, once the bug is fixed - currently you can't even do it while at war.)

I'm new to the game, but from what I've seen I would be very opposed to allowing colonization within another race's sphere when not at war. Yes, it could come with an extreme relations hit, but it still forces the onus to declare war onto the victim in order to oppose it, when the true act of aggression was by the other party. That's particularly irritating for races whose victory conditions include starting the fewest wars. It's a recipe for them getting walked all over. The aggressor should be the one forced to declare war, not the victim.



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 7:07:59 PM)

No, making a colony in enemy territory is STEALING territory. If Israel builds new settlements in Palestine it is a fricking theft of land and that IS more enough reason for war!

I don't say anything about mining. Though that is clear theft on state property...



Locarnus -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 7:54:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nedrear

No, making a colony in enemy territory is STEALING territory. If Israel builds new settlements in Palestine it is a fricking theft of land and that IS more enough reason for war!

I don't say anything about mining. Though that is clear theft on state property...


Yes, I fully concur with this. It is a reason for war, to build colonies in others sphere of influence, but you dont have to declare war to do so. The one whose sphere is invaded has to declare the war, not the aggressor.

After all, the allies declared war on germany in world war 2, not the other way around. And Japan didnt declare war on China. Israel didnt declare war on Palestine. The US not on the Spanish, when they invaded the Philippines, the British and French Empires didnt declare war when they colonized and so on...



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 8:42:12 PM)

I think examples from Earth political geography are not always useful in Galaxy. Galaxy is a vast, empty place. How do we know where territory of the first empire ends and begins another one? How does empire know that some system is not under its control or not be mining now without monitoring station?




HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 8:50:26 PM)

Most of the original players of DW wanted the territory feature because after playing the game since the begining they knew what the game needed.

I guess new players would feel the same eventually if the played the original DW and ROTS.



Cauldyth -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 9:02:28 PM)

Well, it's a matter of semantics. Yes, in WW2 the allies were the ones who "declared war" but Germany and Japan are the ones who "started the war" by most people's definitions. If the game could differentiate between those two things, it might be a different story. But as it is, that's probably too subtle for game code to discern. In the game, being the one who "declares war" brings with it some drawbacks. In the real world, the allies didn't suffer any such drawbacks for declaring war, because by most people's interpretation, it was Germany and Japan who "started the war."



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 9:05:57 PM)

So what? As for me, I played DW very long time. And I don't think that border system is necessary, especially in this form.
In original DW or ROTS I had to hunting for good planets and made colonizers as quick as possible. Now it is enough to appear in good sector. It's not necessary to hurry up. Why? Good planets in your sector can't be colonize by opponents. There is no competition in colonization.



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 9:14:46 PM)

They can if at war and the enemy will consider doing that for good planets in a reckless universe.



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 9:44:33 PM)

Colonization? At war? Near enemy territory? Bad idea, I think.



elliotg -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 9:46:29 PM)

Hi all

Appreciate the feedback on this feature. The current implementation operates as designed: you cannot colonize in another empire's territory, even when at war.

However we plan to alter this in the next update to allow colonization in another empire's territory, but only when at war with them.

Thanks
Elliot



Cauldyth -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 10:17:02 PM)

Sounds good to me! (I guess it wasn't a bug after all, but is still getting changed.)




WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 10:19:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg
However we plan to alter this in the next update to allow colonization in another empire's territory, but only when at war with them.


It's very sad for me [:(] Only war?



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 10:29:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Locarnus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nedrear

No, making a colony in enemy territory is STEALING territory. If Israel builds new settlements in Palestine it is a fricking theft of land and that IS more enough reason for war!

I don't say anything about mining. Though that is clear theft on state property...


Yes, I fully concur with this. It is a reason for war, to build colonies in others sphere of influence, but you dont have to declare war to do so. The one whose sphere is invaded has to declare the war, not the aggressor.

After all, the allies declared war on germany in world war 2, not the other way around. And Japan didnt declare war on China. Israel didnt declare war on Palestine. The US not on the Spanish, when they invaded the Philippines, the British and French Empires didnt declare war when they colonized and so on...


The game represents major galactic powers and you would not just willy nilly do what you want in their territory without war.History is the same when major powers are involved.The most important factor is gameplay and making borders actually matter with enforced rules.



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/29/2011 11:45:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Hi all

Appreciate the feedback on this feature. The current implementation operates as designed: you cannot colonize in another empire's territory, even when at war.

However we plan to alter this in the next update to allow colonization in another empire's territory, but only when at war with them.

Thanks
Elliot




Hmm, so we declare a war, colonise a planet in another emipre's territory and then sue for peace.

What happens then? Do they stay at war with us until we give them their planet back? Do we have to pay them a large amount of money for the planet?

I hope it doesn't become an exploit.



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 12:10:23 AM)

Exploit? You get a warmonger rep hit with them and a reputation hit and have to pay for peace for the territory IF they accept it. I wouldn't call THAT an exploit...



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 12:18:27 AM)

Well if you are a powerful empire a small rep hit can easily be fixed with monetary gifts and attacks on pirates.

Personally I would like that if we declare a war on an empire and then colonise one of their planets, the only way to reach a peace agreement would be to give them that same planet back. They should not sign a peace agreement with us if we keep the planet we took from them.



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 12:20:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HectorOfTroy

...if you are a powerful empire...

They should not sign a peace agreement with us if we keep the planet we took from them.


Yeah sure... smart move. If Great Britain decides to take half of Cuba totally crushing it's armies and afterwards offers them "peace and new borders or destruction" they will totally say "war to the death!"

I can see that in some cases of fervor and brutal races but not in the majority. Especially not if facing a big empire...



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 12:25:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nedrear


quote:

ORIGINAL: HectorOfTroy

...if you are a powerful empire...

They should not sign a peace agreement with us if we keep the planet we took from them.


Yeah sure... smart move. If Great Britain decides to take half of Cuba totally crushing it's armies and afterwards offers them "peace and new borders or destruction" they will totally say "war to the death!"

I can see that in some cases of fervor and brutal races but not in the majority. Especially not if facing a big empire...


Well then all we have to do is:
- declare war;
- colonise as many of the enemy's planets we wannt;
- sue for peace and voila we have multiple new planets (plus if we are powerful we can make the weak empire also pay us tribute to obtain that peace);
- improve our rep by killing pirates and sending small gifts to others;

I personally would not like the game to turn out this way;



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 12:30:41 AM)

The problem is not that you can do that - the raped empire will still HATE you in Diplomacy because of WAR! - but that your old deeds are forgotten. I criticized that in the old P&P games and therefore made my own alignment system which remembered ALL your deads not just adds + to - and gives an actual score. If other empires new you are an evil scheming empire always stealing land in war, then they should isolate you. Actually I am against an override of past deeds. It should rather be a repair without wiping out your past deeds.

Elliot give an empire two values: Good deeds, bad deeds and let them be judged by their doing. One who does much good and bad at the same time should be distrusted as he is unpredictable and should suffer accordingly in diplomacy.



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 12:34:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nedrear

The problem is not that you can do that - the raped empire will still HATE you in Diplomacy because of WAR! - but that your old deeds are forgotten. I criticized that in the old P&P games and therefore made my own alignment system which remembered ALL your deads not just adds + to - and gives an actual score. If other empires new you are an evil scheming empire always stealing land in war, then they should isolate you. Actually I am against an override of past deeds. It should rather be a repair without wiping out your past deeds.

Elliot give an empire two values: Good deeds, bad deeds and let them be judged by their doing. One who does much good and bad at the same time should be distrusted as he is unpredictable and should suffer accordingly in diplomacy.


That is why I think once you take over the planet during the war, the other empire should stay at war with you unless you give the planet back or exchange it for another or a huge amount of money (maybe have a value for each planet = max population + medium development + 10% tax level)



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 12:37:44 AM)

That is not realistic. If you are powerful and the enemy screams in your face "Why should we make peace with you scum! Give us our territorial worlds back or we will fight you to the death!" will you ignore them or happily mesh the rest? Total war - including war weariness - is NOT an option. Maybe for warlike races but not in generell. NEVER forget war weariness!



Cauldyth -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 1:56:06 AM)

That seems like an odd implementation of war. What it would mean is that the victor in the war has won the right to buy the conquered territory off of the loser. That doesn't reflect any real world war that has ever happened.



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