RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (Full Version)

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KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/12/2012 7:49:53 PM)

T52 center (Soviet)


Minor adjustments.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/A03AC1CB8F99496FB39B5FC708FF7568.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/12/2012 7:51:33 PM)

T52 center/south (Soviet)



Withdrawal.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/50083D9372474A73B76A46B8FBD31354.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/12/2012 7:53:40 PM)

T52 south (Soviet)



Panzers appeared near Stalino forcing me to fall-back behind river bend. Reinforcements are on its way.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/1F8D008A08C34FC0A34AA4A3A1C06073.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/12/2012 9:10:06 PM)

T53 center/south (German)


Last turn of mud so Saper is resting his forces.


7 previously encircled infantry divisions were destroyed (52k).

[image]local://upfiles/37480/17984757FCB04699A5C548CE43D15E56.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/13/2012 6:20:58 AM)

My 2 cents Kamil, I think you are relying too much on the carpet defence. To defend Moscow carpeting with good units is necessary. But elsewhere where he has panzers you should, IMHO, form 3 lines (or even more) leaving generally one space between each line. Your best units, especially your tank corps should be in your rear line where they can be used to hit and run. Of course, where possible, you should make use of the terrain and rivers.



bigbaba -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/13/2012 11:01:32 AM)

i had a similar situation in a game against bomazz but in mid 43.

he encirceld a entire front with more then 500.000 men and in this stage of the war it was the deadly strike for me.

but in mid 42 you still have time to recover. something i simply did't have in my game with such a late date and my opponent deep in russia.

good luck for your defense strategy.




Flaviusx -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/13/2012 2:15:33 PM)

I think Kamil got caught out of position due to the mud, which left him unable to get all his mobile units to the rear. These alternating mud/clear turns are a real pain in the neck.

Fundamentally, his problem is the Red Army just isn't that strong. And it's getting weaker fast.



Walloc -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/13/2012 2:21:11 PM)

Kamil, any chance of losses/oob screen at turn 53/54?

Kind regards,

Rasmus



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/13/2012 3:17:21 PM)

quote:

Harrybanana

My 2 cents Kamil, I think you are relying too much on the carpet defence. To defend Moscow carpeting with good units is necessary. But elsewhere where he has panzers you should, IMHO, form 3 lines (or even more) leaving generally one space between each line. Your best units, especially your tank corps should be in your rear line where they can be used to hit and run. Of course, where possible, you should make use of the terrain and rivers.


Thank You for advice but I have to say I disagree.

Carpet defence in Moscow area is in my opinion big mistake - I will stand my ground, because hex or two matters there.

Leaving spaces between defense lines while facing concentration of all German panzers is invitation to disaster - more battles and more ground is lost, forming mini-pockets (what Saper likes to do) is easier.


quote:


Flaviusx

I think Kamil got caught out of position due to the mud, which left him unable to get all his mobile units to the rear. These alternating mud/clear turns are a real pain in the neck.

Fundamentally, his problem is the Red Army just isn't that strong. And it's getting weaker fast.




That is true.

That is why instead of trying to stop him I will aim to wear his panzers down - they will be targets of my counter-attacks. I will form infantry corps for that purpose when necessary.


quote:

Walloc

Kamil, any chance of losses/oob screen at turn 53/54?

Kind regards,

Rasmus



I will include them in next batch of posts



Walloc -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/13/2012 3:38:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil
quote:

Walloc

Kamil, any chance of losses/oob screen at turn 53/54?

Kind regards,

Rasmus



I will include them in next batch of posts


Thx Kamil. Btw could u also include Manpower generated in all until now, please. A picture isnt necesarrily needed u could just type the number.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



76mm -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/13/2012 3:51:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil
Carpet defence in Moscow area is in my opinion big mistake - I will stand my ground, because hex or two matters there.

Leaving spaces between defense lines while facing concentration of all German panzers is invitation to disaster - more battles and more ground is lost, forming mini-pockets (what Saper likes to do) is easier.


I agree, I can only think that the people that suggest using belts with gaps haven't played someone that likes to gobble up units. I think it is fair to say that carpets are the worst form of defense for the Sovs--except for everything else!



Peltonx -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/13/2012 4:02:32 PM)

Smaller pockets at the start of summer 42 is kinda standard with a close game. He needs to get small pockets for the first 4-6 turns then he can think about larger pockets and Moscow. The small pockets get the AP crunch going and if he can towards the end of summer get a few large pockets it over. Tipping pt is about 150ish pocketed units, more then 200 its over.

If GHC sets-up 3 infantry Corp and 1 PZ Corp right he could start a 1 to 2 hex a turn drive(3 wide) on Moscow, which would set it up for a major offensive come late August early September. Dispite reserves activation it can't be stopped, unless a good size inf Corp activates and thats still ifiy with allot of poiner/air/art support.

Kamils defences look good, hes taking advantage of terrian, has strong units in 3rd+ row with some reserves.

Not much more that he can do.

It mostly depends on how things went in the summer of 41+ blizzard and the German player's game play in 42 as to how things will roll out in 42. Only so much the SHC can do.

I think Sapper got the better of Kamil in 41, but Kamil did better then average in blizzard.

It is really a draw so far.



Walloc -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/13/2012 5:09:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

It is really a draw so far.


We would have to disagree on that. Just a question of german keeping the grind on. Fact is its very limited what u can back from with current manpower modifiers, if u have a "bad" '41. The biggest mistakes german players seems to make it letting up on the pressure. Going in a defensive mental mode. The amount u need to chip away each turns isnt particular high. Just set ur turn by turn objectives to that and u will stop any rise in SU army. If u can create big pockets great, but there are other ways of accomplishing that, that is much more manageble.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Peltonx -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/16/2012 3:24:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

It is really a draw so far.


We would have to disagree on that. Just a question of german keeping the grind on. Fact is its very limited what u can back from with current manpower modifiers, if u have a "bad" '41. The biggest mistakes german players seems to make it letting up on the pressure. Going in a defensive mental mode. The amount u need to chip away each turns isnt particular high. Just set ur turn by turn objectives to that and u will stop any rise in SU army. If u can create big pockets great, but there are other ways of accomplishing that, that is much more manageble.

Kind regards,

Rasmus


The German player can not grind above 2.6 to 1 in 1942. a ratio of 3.2 to 1 or less and the russian player is winning. These ratios I have more then posted ecte ect.

GHC must get pockets or the GHC will grind itself into dust in 1942.

Grinding can be used at the start of the 1942 offensive to get past the fort belts, but pockets are a must. "grinding" in 42 or 43 will cost the GHC 250,00 to 400,000 less per yr. Thats less as far as manpower totals.

If the GHC doesn't pocket at least 150 divisions in 42 its toast, been there done that winning and losing after 1.06 manpower numbers.




Walloc -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/16/2012 1:17:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

GHC must get pockets or the GHC will grind itself into dust in 1942.


My point was ppl tend to go after big pockets. Catching 15-50 units at a time. Those are much harder to make and will many times fail. Getting nada. If one instead focus on making pockets that are much smaller and there for more manageble. U can get the grind effect much more than 10 turn trying to make bigger pockets that all fails is much worse than 10 pockets with pockets much smaller but a much more sure thing.
If SHC side gets 100k, 30k in attrition, 10k from battles to make smaller pockets al u actually need to pocket on average per turn is 65k to even it out 5k from disabled kickbacks and reinforcements. As seen in some of the recent AARs u see SHC geting easily get down to 90k in 42. Then the number is 55k. Thats not alot of hexes and if ppl use 20 pz divs to get the big pockets done. U really should be able to herd smaller pockets together. Not saying it will fit all situasions but the its one counter to the carpets tactics.

quote:


Grinding can be used at the start of the 1942 offensive to get past the fort belts, but pockets are a must. "grinding" in 42 or 43 will cost the GHC 250,00 to 400,000 less per yr. Thats less as far as manpower totals.

If the GHC doesn't pocket at least 150 divisions in 42 its toast, been there done that winning and losing after 1.06 manpower numbers.


Manpower numbers discussion will hafta wait for another day.

Kind reagrds,

Rasmus



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:49:53 AM)

T53 north (Soviet)


I guess not much is going to happen here.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/12750DB2AEE84DB985A6B9B3E82B4106.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:51:06 AM)

T53 center (Soviet)


This is most important location in whole game, but fortunately Saper has his attention focused elsewhere.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/68AE3B81FFAA468FBA17549DA8236259.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:52:24 AM)

T53 center/south (Soviet)


Might of German army is concentrated here, that is why I made tactical withdrawal.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/371C468A6E2345CCA94273339A9B4101.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:54:41 AM)

T53 south (Soviet)


I am very weak in far south, but I do not expect intensive fighting there. At least for 2-3 turns.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/060534657A024E6FB0920F56FE581E86.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:55:39 AM)

T53 OOB (Soviet)


Simply speaking situation isn't great

[image]local://upfiles/37480/6DDE4DB50B074334BB25879A3B3E363C.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 1:29:40 AM)

T54 center (German)


Surprisingly strong pressure in Moscow area.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/2550A76C1B3E4A03BB6628CF6A367456.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 1:32:07 AM)

T54 center/south (German)


No attacks here and maybe even half of panzers gone.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/B92C24343627423AADD729A7AC6B250C.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 1:33:44 AM)

T54 south (German)


My defensive line was breached, withdrawal will be necessary.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/55513CB6FCA941FB9978AA968B4A0391.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:01:40 PM)

T54 center (Soviet)


I will try to hold my ground without reinforcements.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/392184845A4A4C6B94C852D33B7DDBD9.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:03:23 PM)

T54 center/south & south (Soviet)


Withdrawals.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/64D50281D8E84B14BEFA502A13AA7002.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:29:25 PM)

T55 center (German)


Saper committed plenty new troops to his assault in Moscow area. I will have to address this issue.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/2C8CA3A3EBD941798E87CCD259BED790.jpg[/image]



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:30:42 PM)

T55 center/south & south (German)


German advance south of upper Don continues.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/7682E58233F14EACB7002230D5BD546A.jpg[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:30:56 PM)

Response to post 414 not the last one

I wonder if you should be more aggressive. You had a 4 hex attack on the stack just north of Lipetsk showing a mot div on top, and it looked fairly easy to have knocked it back given the CVs of your units there: especially after a bit of bombing. Grinding his mobile forces down with counter-attacks when you get the chance will slow him down more than anything else.



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 12:56:44 PM)

quote:

sillyflower

Response to post 414 not the last one

I wonder if you should be more aggressive. You had a 4 hex attack on the stack just north of Lipetsk showing a mot div on top, and it looked fairly easy to have knocked it back given the CVs of your units there: especially after a bit of bombing. Grinding his mobile forces down with counter-attacks when you get the chance will slow him down more than anything else.




He has plenty of panzers there, possibly in reserve mode too. I will wait for him to commit himself before counterattacking.

I prefer to play it safe at the moment.



KamilS -> RE: GC41 - Saper222 (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov) (No Saper222) (8/19/2012 1:00:51 PM)

T55 center (Soviet)


I railed several quality units here, including cavalry army under Bagramyan (4 cav corps 5-7 CV).

Inf corps have been created for the purpose of counterattacking.


Losing Moscow is not an option.

[image]local://upfiles/37480/690D3194FFB5425FB3561DA13CB1EAB9.jpg[/image]



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