Case Blue: Unwinnable? (Full Version)

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dmixer -> Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 1:57:13 AM)

Trying the Case Blue (full) map.

Is this set up so the Germans have no chance of winning? Within a few turns, the Russians have destroyed the middle and are pouring troops through the gap. I can grind forward up top, hold the bottom, but middle is a lost cause.

I can see absolutely no way for the Germans to even have a chance of capturing any of the objectives, the Russians just have endless waves of troops.

Am I playing this wrong? Is it set up so that the objectives are unreachable, and you are just trying not to lose what you started with?



dmixer -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 3:21:51 AM)

Sorry... didn't realize how frustrated I was when I posted that. :P

Anyway, I'm sticking with my original question. The Soviet lines in the Case Blue match are a tough nut to crack. I can force them back up north, but it's slow going after the first turn.. usually just a few hexes here and there.

In the middle, the Sovs a;ways punch two big holes. While I can usually cut them off and chop them up, the middle is a lost cause, with no hope of advancement.

The south... ahh the south. If I try and do any offensive actions in the south, the Sovs crush it with massive reinforcements.

Played.. lord.. all day, and restarted 3 times. There really seems to be no possible way to capture even one of the objectives. I can get close to the north one... but by then the German casualites are so high it's a lost cause.

Anyone figure out just what the heck you are supposed to do with this map?!!



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 6:51:53 AM)

are you talking about Uranus? i played Case Blue Short on normal settings to the end and had a major victory.

[image]local://upfiles/36103/4C8CA492B70543B5974E30C24DE295BD.jpg[/image]



sanderz -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 7:09:54 AM)

i assume he means the Case Blue campaign (not Uranus)

i am only on turn 3 - its very tough and whilst i have some breakthroughs i'm not optimistic

i haven't experienced any soviet counter attacks in the centre though - or is it too early for that?



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 8:39:16 AM)

i made major breakthroughs in the center and in the northern part of the map resulting in huge pockets. the soviets made some counterattacks in the area of Rostov. Rostov area was a stalemate until the armor of center swung south and assisted in putting pressure on the defenders there.



sanderz -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 9:11:55 AM)



also got a major breakthrough in North but mud on turn 3 isn't helping - so not sure if i will be able to swing south for a big pocket - its possible though as the middle part of the soviet line hasn't retreated

mini breakthroughs in other parts of the line and some minor pockets - am hoping the line will crack in the next few turns


Keunert - any chance of a screen shot? Also, what turn was the pocket created?



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 9:51:51 AM)

i repost some screens from beta testing Case Blue Short. Situation August 5th North/Center:


[image]local://upfiles/36103/CA11F28EC6564D6BA949A5BBEECFF174.jpg[/image]



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 9:56:05 AM)

South: the pocket was later successfully created

[image]local://upfiles/36103/6377D96DD08D4841AD84A31CD51215AE.jpg[/image]



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 9:57:07 AM)

and here casualties at the end of the scenario:

[image]local://upfiles/36103/717908B358C04643B75E7BBC2E511228.jpg[/image]



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 10:01:09 AM)

to be honest i think Germany should rather get less oil and have more troubles when not reaching major goals in time once you are more familiar with the game. have to try mp, that will surely be a completely different story.



sanderz -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 10:45:24 AM)

thanks for that - gives me some hope as i am only on turn 3



dmixer -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 1:54:11 PM)

Yah.. I'm talking the Case Blue(Full) scenario. Any attempt at punching through the soviet lines results in the troops being cut off and eliminated.

Even if I keep the line strong throughout to prevent Russian breakthroughs, the German possible advance is small...at best. Capturing half a dozen hexes a turn... much less any actual line advancement.

I would really like to here from anyone that has had any success with this, cause right now I'm thinking its a non starter for the Germans.



dmixer -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 5:36:20 PM)

Blah, Im throwing in the towel for now on this. Got to middle of July and then Russian troops started falling out of the sky. I had pushed the lines back about halfway, then everything just collapsed from the weight of the Russian hoard.

I'll try one of the short scenarios next week, but as for now, Case Blue (Full) is a no win match for the Germans.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 6:24:15 PM)

Hi DMixer,

Maybe you could describe your playstyle for us? Do you use all the tools at your disposal in the game (especially the commander actions and card options) to maximize success and maintain tempo?

Regards,

- Erik



sullafelix -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/19/2012 10:06:11 PM)

Please do remember that historically the Soviets had massed and were attempting a very large offensive manuever out of the Izium bridgehead.

So in the beginning playing as the Germans it is kind of touch and go in the middle of the map.

One of the best things about DCCB is that historical tactics and strategy do work. So your main goal as the German player is to put a hurting on as many Soviets as possible early on. In the historical campaign once the Soviets got a bloody nose at Kharkov they retreated fast enough so that they didn't suffer any encirclements as in 1941. So their troops were still alive and fighting as the winter approached.

Playing as the German player in the Uranus scenario or the campaigns you find out quickly how bad the equipment and training was in some of the axis satellite nations. So as the German player you are even more outnumbered than it looks at first.



dmixer -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/20/2012 12:14:39 PM)

Hmm... I use arty and air to soften up the big stacks... try and concentrate on a few key spots to force breakthroughs, cut off and chop up Soviet incursions..

You know, typical wargame stuff [:)]

One thing I have noticed is that air power in this game is very weak compared to.. other games or real life. I've sent my entire airforce against one hex... and it did nothing but reduce cover by about 50, and cause no damage. In the real battle, the Germans destroyed an entire armored column with air strikes and here it's more of an annoyance then anything!

Same with arty. The Russians called artillery "The Queen of the battlefield". Again, not so much here. Maybe it's the scale of the game? Units involved just too big to be really affected by air or artillery?

Russian reserves are truly monsterous in this scenario, so attempts to create pockets usually just gets overwhelmed and the forward units cut off and destroyed. Sum it all up, and you have my experience! lol

Game is well crafted, no doubt about it. You can tell lots of effort went into OoB and getting the 'feel' of a monster wargame into a computer game. No complaints there, I'm just frustrated at how ... hopeless the German position is in this scenario. Like I said, I'll have some time next week, and I'll try one of the other matches, maybe the Germans are more evenly matched in those.






sanderz -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/20/2012 2:06:40 PM)

On the subject of air/artillery - can't say i have experienced your problem as quite often ( not all attacks) there will be 'red' kills

On the campaign as a whole i'm only on turn 6 but its looking very difficult as the Germans - i'm hoping there will be a sudden 'break point' following a few mini pockets where they all run for the hills and i can take some of the PP objectives.



Vic -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/20/2012 2:22:23 PM)

Hi dmixer,

Well I could not win Case Blue playing the Soviets. Read this AAR on the Armchair General:
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/decisive-campaigns-case-blue-after-action-report.htm

And I designed the game...

Please try playing the scenario on 'easy AI' level.

Furthermore... playing Case Blue against the Soviet AI might in the start be more difficult than playing against a human player since the AI will not try to pull back to the Don but fight where it is.
It is essential to make breakthroughs. you must focus your panzers on the weakest part of the line. It might seem hard, but once you have a good breakthrough it will be a huge problem for the Soviets.

Best,
Vic



ComradeP -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/20/2012 2:27:58 PM)

My very limited experience with the game thus far seems to indicate that the game is more challenging for the Germans than the majority of other wargames in terms of their relative strength compared to the Soviets. I haven't touched the Case Blue scenario yet, but will at some point in August (probably).

Keunert: did you play the full scenario and did you win in August by capturing the autovictory objectives?

As to artillery and air power: although I see the need to make sure they're not superweapons, the performance of artillery in particular makes things difficult for the Germans because the drop in artillery effectiveness increases losses during attacks which inevitably favours the side that gets the most replacements:the Soviets. A 50% artillery effectiveness for 3 turns before it returning to 100% could already make a significant difference over the 25%-50%-75%-100% system in place now (unless I don't understand the rules correctly).

It's all about averages in the long run and I'd much rather have a reduced effectiveness on the third turn after using the artillery compared to the current effectiveness than a 25% effectiveness on the first turn after using it. That is however just my first opinion based on what I've seen in the first two scenarios of the 1st Panzer Army linked campaign, so it might very well change.

The system is better than TAOW's anyway, where you could shell a unit with everything you have and it would result in 1 element being destroyed.



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/20/2012 3:18:37 PM)

I played the Case Blue Short variant. I missed Stalingrad and didn't reach Rostow on time but i got still a major victory. at the end of July the soviet front was no continuous front anymore, i managed to kill around 650'000 soviets while only losing about 100'000 germans. st the end of August germany fielded around twice as many troops as the soviets.

the german strategy should rely on mobility and the creation of Kessel. artillery and airstrikes are needed to soften ennemy positions before groundattacks. even though they do not inflict lots of losses the reduction of readiness and entrenchment will lower the losses of the attacker and increase the defenders losses in the battles on ground. they aren't very usefull on their own. with the exception of divebombers vs tanks.

i am an experienced but rather average player. Case Blue Short definately is winnable on normal settings. but it sure does require that you are familiar with the game mechanics.



Flaviusx -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/20/2012 4:30:08 PM)

Heh, so much for going for the oil.

Seems like the way to win here is the same way as anywhere else: take a pass on that crackbrained plan by Hitler and destroy the Red Army.




amatteucci -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/20/2012 7:14:16 PM)

Consider, also, that, if I'm not mistaken, playing against the AI at normal difficulty does, in fact, give the AI substantial advantages. Only with the "easy AI" setting there is no combat, movement or transfer bonus (or malus) whatsoever.



LiquidSky -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (7/20/2012 8:16:12 PM)



I have started a Case Blue (Full) game with free setup to see if I can do better as the axis. I moved the 11th army to the front, and put the hungarian 2nd Army in the crimea with the rumanians (yup, they can cooperate), along with all the german artillery. I know i have entered the realm of fantasy, but I am hoping it will make for a fun game.



Pawsy -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (8/12/2012 5:43:37 PM)

Case blue short major victory for Germans on normal AI by some margin and it was first full scenario so I was learning most of the time. TBH difficult to loose as Germans but was very enjoyable AI was great. I choose Stalingrad. Took Rostov after some hard fighting.



okeefe -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (11/9/2012 5:26:15 AM)

I know this is an old thread, but there is an chance to take rostov on the 6th turn, from what i see you guys are going the long way around, if you try to cut off the 2 units on the rail.. you will take some casulties but you can smash your way through above them. Once you get close to rostov you do a recon and you can see there is only 1 unit with about 2k men in the city.. blow the bridge behind it and cut off the rail line to the east. Bring in all your artillery and airstrikes next turn and use your leader card.. I don't know how smart this tactic is in the long run but you can take rostov way ahead of schedule. I did this on easy AI, with very slow thinking



76mm -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (11/9/2012 6:25:57 AM)

I just finished my first game--long Case Blue as German on Normal AI--and got an autowin before the end of November after taking Stalingrad, Saratov, Astrakhan, Poti, and Baku, and almost taking the town in the SE corner of the map (Chapaev?).

I don't think I did anything special, but the Sov AI's inability/unwillingness to withdraw resulted in numerous pockets, and its inept counter-attacks didn't help.

The only places where the AI really put up a good fight were Rostov and Saratov; Rostov I took in time for the prestige and then lost, and then just screened it until after Stalingrad had fallen (it was unoccupied by the AI), after which the Sov's line from Rostov to the east was rolled up from the east, and it completely collapsed.

Stalingrad was unoccupied, and there was also no resistance in Astrakhan--the AI held the bridge to the north of Astrakhan (uh oh!) but then pulled back without blowing the bridge, and I was able to march into Astrakhan itself with no resistance. After the line extending from Rostov was broken, there was only token resistance in the Caucauses. At one point one of my units enountered about eight (!) AA units clustered together, strange...



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (12/18/2012 8:50:54 PM)

My experience with DCCB so far;

1. Short ealry Kharkov as Russians, won.
2. 1st Panzer Army linked Campaign, won first got completely overwhelmed on second. Quit.
3. Case Blue long campaign as German vs. Normal AI given as much time as it wants:

Initially, I have been just hammering away and picking off select locales which allowed for encirclement bonus and keeping an eye out for potential pocketing. This went on and on until I began to take some hexes, not many, but a few each turn. I then began to pocket small groups of Russians and bypass them. I use engineers, flak, anti tank brigades to mop up these isolated groups after they've sat and starved for a few turns.

It's tough going, no breakthroughs to mention. I am only about 1/2 way to my major objectives, with more being added and my prestige dropping. I have one promising move towards Voronesh but the AI of course is completely unlimited in reserves and transport capacity. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. I haven't used my PP's yet.

Around Rostov I am on the brink of collapse, I had to rail in a security division to bridge a gap in the lines. I'm on the outskirts of the city, but the Russians have reenforced with thousands of troops. It's looking very hopeless overall.

Dismissal emminent, I have to take one major objective before the end of July, otherwise I'm kaput.

Along the way, I've learned a few things about playing the game that I will try next time around. But I'd say, it's not easy to win as Germans.




Jeffrey H. -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (12/18/2012 8:54:52 PM)

Things were kind of looking up for a bit there when the AI started throwing Militia units at some of my advance units. I started to hope it was running out of regulars. Of course it found more regulars. *ugh*. No joy there.



wallas -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (12/18/2012 9:28:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dmixer

I've sent my entire airforce against one hex... and it did nothing but reduce cover by about 50, and cause no damage.



I suggest you read the manual, air power is about troop suppresion, entrenchment reduction, and finally unit destruction. Anything over a hundred stacking points in the battle and you will suffer more air losses then necessary. Think of it as overstacking.

I really suggest you read the manual on how combat works



PKH -> RE: Case Blue: Unwinnable? (12/21/2012 5:44:03 PM)

Are there any negatives to overstacking air attacks if there's no aa or interceptors ? Will there be a reduced effect, like you stack 150 pts, but f.ex. only 120 are used in the attack ?



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