Beer & Pretzels ? (Full Version)

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39battalion -> Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 8:57:10 AM)


I have been very impressed by the many positive comments about this game and I am seriously considering purchasing.

However I am a little concerned about the way it has been described by some as a relatively simple game. The cartoonish unit graphics also add to this impression.

Is this a "beer & pretzels" type game ? If so it is not for me. I really like challenging games with plenty of detail and immersion. As an example my favourite game of all time is WITPAE.

As well as the Pacific Theatre I like East Front games. Unfortunately WITE didn't quite do it for me as I found it to be a rather "cold" and not nearly as immersive as WITPAE.

So before I dust off the credit card I want to make sure that DCCB is not an entry level easy to play type game.

Thx



alex0809 -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 9:07:08 AM)

What you are scared about is (IMHO) what this game does PERFECTLY:
it is simple, yes - when I started the game for the first time, it was immediately clear how to move, how to attack, how to use air forces etc. Yet is is complex: there are quite some rules that you have to know to master the game, there are lots of stats for every individual unit (experience, entrenchment, readiness and of course the stats of the equipment just to name a few), the HQ range/supply system is again easy to understand but it isn't easy to actually have all your troops in HQ range and fully supplied.

And then apart from all that, it's simply the vast, vast scale that makes the game challenging to play - but also enables you to employ the strategy you want, there are multiple ways to win you don't have to capture a certain victory point to win. You are commanding (with replacements that trickle in) over 1,000,000 soldiers over a year in the longest campaign - regimental sized units! Do the math, that is a LOT of units[:D]



Forever -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 9:22:09 AM)

Hello

sorry for my English, but translators are still not perfect

The game is really cool
At first may seem quite simple but it is only the beginning
The longer I play it the more I'm impressed

I recommend any fan of strategy



BodyBag -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 10:45:21 AM)

Please stop referring to the unit art as "cartoonish",- it's drawings, allright?

Most boardgames has used this kind of art for their counters and maps for years, and it was the designers intention to make a boardgame for the PC.



kemmo -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 12:28:23 PM)

I think the games 'simplicity' tag comes from the fact it's easy to get into and pick up the basics.The actual game itself is far from simple,having higher hq's seting objectives and the possibilty of the dismissal for failing give you a feel for an actual commanders problems.As for the graphics,there are many mods allready,my own favorites being those by redmarkus4.



PirateJock -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 12:38:39 PM)

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein

A good approach [:)]

Cheers



TJD -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 1:19:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BodyBag

Please stop referring to the unit art as "cartoonish",- it's drawings, allright?




I think people are entitled to state their opinions, and I too think that the drawings are cartoonish and even amateurish. Fortunately the game is easily modded in this area and the tireless RedMarkus has been on the case.

Best,

Tim



James Ward -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 1:19:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 39battalion


I have been very impressed by the many positive comments about this game and I am seriously considering purchasing.

However I am a little concerned about the way it has been described by some as a relatively simple game. The cartoonish unit graphics also add to this impression.

Is this a "beer & pretzels" type game ? If so it is not for me. I really like challenging games with plenty of detail and immersion. As an example my favourite game of all time is WITPAE.

As well as the Pacific Theatre I like East Front games. Unfortunately WITE didn't quite do it for me as I found it to be a rather "cold" and not nearly as immersive as WITPAE.

So before I dust off the credit card I want to make sure that DCCB is not an entry level easy to play type game.

Thx


I was hoping for a more and pretzels game when I bought it myself. It's definately not that but it is also not WITE or WITP. It's sort of in the middle.
My only real complaints are the small number of unique scenarios and the fact that there are really only two 'battles' covered, Case Blue and Uranus.



Templer_12 -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 1:59:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJD


quote:

ORIGINAL: BodyBag

Please stop referring to the unit art as "cartoonish",- it's drawings, allright?




I think people are entitled to state their opinions, and I too think that the drawings are cartoonish and even amateurish. Fortunately the game is easily modded in this area and the tireless RedMarkus has been on the case.

Best,

Tim

Right!

They may be 'drawings' but they feel 'cartoonish'. For a war/strategy game not serious enough!
But as good as the game is, and as satisfactorily it is to play, you will overcome this issue with ease.



MengJiao -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 2:47:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward


quote:

ORIGINAL: 39battalion


I have been very impressed by the many positive comments about this game and I am seriously considering purchasing.

However I am a little concerned about the way it has been described by some as a relatively simple game. The cartoonish unit graphics also add to this impression.

Is this a "beer & pretzels" type game ? If so it is not for me. I really like challenging games with plenty of detail and immersion. As an example my favourite game of all time is WITPAE.

As well as the Pacific Theatre I like East Front games. Unfortunately WITE didn't quite do it for me as I found it to be a rather "cold" and not nearly as immersive as WITPAE.

So before I dust off the credit card I want to make sure that DCCB is not an entry level easy to play type game.

Thx


I was hoping for a more and pretzels game when I bought it myself. It's definately not that but it is also not WITE or WITP. It's sort of in the middle.
My only real complaints are the small number of unique scenarios and the fact that there are really only two 'battles' covered, Case Blue and Uranus.



Yes, it is in the middle -- not quite Beer and Pretzels and not quite a monster BUt it is a sophisticated representation of Case Blue.

Also, if you take the May 12 start and let it run to April 1943, you cover a lot of 'battles' (some perhaps only potentially): Stalingrad, the Caucausus, Sevastapol, Kerch Disaster,
Lots of forgotten offensives around Voronezh, All three stages of Case Blue, Uranus, Winter Swan Song (or whatever the Manstein doesn't get to relieve Stalingrad offensive is called) Little Saturn and about half-a dozen forgotten Russian offensives -- eg, Star and Gallop -- and of course wait for it -- THE BACKHANDED BLOW -- 2nd and 3rd Kharkov -- the Popov Group disaster and Badanov's Christmas Day raid (okay technically that's Little Saturn -- but Still -- it's covered ---



jack54 -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 3:37:27 PM)

I also had concerns since 'Advance Tactics' (by the same designer) was not for me but this game seems to fill a void. It has nice detail not too crazy--- (Warning: there are a lot of units)). Graphics are ok with me and as others have mentioned there are Mods. I am still feeling my way around but it seems to be a nice system! [:)]



rominet -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 4:05:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 39battalion


I have been very impressed by the many positive comments about this game and I am seriously considering purchasing.

However I am a little concerned about the way it has been described by some as a relatively simple game. The cartoonish unit graphics also add to this impression.

Is this a "beer & pretzels" type game ? If so it is not for me. I really like challenging games with plenty of detail and immersion. As an example my favourite game of all time is WITPAE.

As well as the Pacific Theatre I like East Front games. Unfortunately WITE didn't quite do it for me as I found it to be a rather "cold" and not nearly as immersive as WITPAE.

So before I dust off the credit card I want to make sure that DCCB is not an entry level easy to play type game.

Thx


Only for information and to help you to compare:
i don't like WitE and AE not because they are bad games but because i reached my own limits with these games, they are too huge for me, too much uninteresting details and so on.

However, i still continue to like and play WitP because my limit is not reached in this case and i love pacific war.

Now, DCCB is really simpler than these 3 previous games.
The gameplay is intuitive, you don't have to read 3 hundred pages of manuel to begin to understand something.
That doesn't mean that the game is superficial, it is even the opposite.
As shown in the Voronezh tutoriel, the tactical and operational module is very rich, the combat results are quite good (even if i think the losses are a little bit exagerated but it could be corrected) and the strategic simulation is far better than the WitE'one especially because of prestige, politic points and cards. This strategic system also allows a great replayability.
Moreover, i think the space-time scale chosen in DCCB (10km/2 days) is better than WitE's ones for a realistic and pleasant simultation of war in Russia.
And if you have an old computer (like mine, uncapable to run Rome Total War), no problem, DCCB is very few greedy with PC.
Now at last but not the least, in DCCB, there is an EDITOR, yes,yes[&o] Thank you very much, Vic!!!

So I think you understand, with DDCB, you are directly immersed in the tactical, operational and strategical challenges Russian and German commanders at the front were faced during the war.
All other details are futils.[:)]



sandman2575 -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 4:27:33 PM)

The Decisive Campaigns hit the sweet spot between beer&pretzels oversimplicity and too-bogged-down-with-minutia-to-be-enjoyable hyper grognardism. It's reasonably simple to learn, but there's so much going on under the hood that, in time, you really begin to appreciate all the subtlety and flexibility Vic has worked into this terrific game.

***And for what it's worth: I *love* the aesthetic of DC from start to finish. People are entitled to their opinions about whether the graphics are cartoonish, but I find them sleek and stylish, and frankly wouldn't want Vic to change a thing about them in any future DC editions. ("Battlefield Academy" is comic-book cartoonish, deliberately so -- DC is by no means comparable.) DC's artwork gives the game an instantly recognizable and distinctive character. I think it's completely brilliant.



Templer_12 -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 5:07:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 39battalion


I have been very impressed by the many positive comments about this game and I am seriously considering purchasing.

However I am a little concerned about the way it has been described by some as a relatively simple game. The cartoonish unit graphics also add to this impression.

Is this a "beer & pretzels" type game ? If so it is not for me. I really like challenging games with plenty of detail and immersion. As an example my favourite game of all time is WITPAE.

As well as the Pacific Theatre I like East Front games. Unfortunately WITE didn't quite do it for me as I found it to be a rather "cold" and not nearly as immersive as WITPAE.

So before I dust off the credit card I want to make sure that DCCB is not an entry level easy to play type game.

Thx

Somewhere on the Internet I read over and over:

Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue is a kind of WitE 'light' and it stands between Panzer Corps and WitE.
I would confirm that.

Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue can far not be measured on the scale, complexity and depth with WITPAE.

If there is anything in common with WITPAE then maybe the player's "hand" is needed, which expires in Wite largely automatically (i. e. the attaching sub-units and the air war).

Cartoonish? Yeh. The worst are the faces. But use redmarkus4 great 'Remove all Unit Portraits' mode and the sun will rise again.
It is easy to play - but it is not modest!

The Decisive Campaigns series are no Beer & Pretzels, it's a great and smart series with some great ideas and features implemented.
Check therefore the free public download manual.

But...
When WITPAE is your unit of measurement, then you should not consider on the purchase of Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue.

Should you still take the plunge, then share your experiences with us. [:)]

By the way, I love War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition and I loved (after introduced in the Decicive Campaigns series i'm not sure anymore) Gary Grigsby's War in the East.



Flaviusx -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 8:01:58 PM)

The game is a lot deeper than it looks on first inspection. Easy to learn, hard to master.




Grotius -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 8:06:50 PM)

Well, WITP/AE is one of my favorite games of all time, and I love "Case Blue". I don't think "Case Blue" is beer and pretzels at all. It's not as complex as AE, but nothing is. In some ways, it's MORE daunting to play than AE, because every turn in CB you have to look at every formation. In AE, once you send a Transport TF on its way, it moves of its own accord for the next several turns (or longer). Once you set a sub TF to patrol, you don't have to check it every turn. But in Case Blue, every corps is busy every turns, and I usually examine most units on the map.

Put another way: the first turn or two in AE is longer. But turn 3-5 in Case Blue's campaign actually takes me longer than later turns in AE, which often take me less than an hour.

As for the drawings, I love them too, and I have no intention of modding them. The "lock and load" boardgame series uses similar art. I think it's a refreshing change of pace from the usual black-and-white photographs we've seen a thousand times.




James Ward -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/8/2012 9:17:15 PM)

I don't have a problem with the art work in the game. After all, I'm not hanging screen shots on the wall of my man cave [:D]



39battalion -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/9/2012 4:25:52 AM)


Well many thanks to everybody for the really helpful comments. You have made my decision easy: the credit card is out of the wallet and ready to go [:D]

@alex0809:your description perfectly addresses my concerns

@BodyBag:sorry I meant no offence with "cartoonish". Each to his own taste but the unit graphics are not to mine. Thankfully,as others have pointed out,there are some great mods available.

@rominet:very helpful comments.

@Templer:thanks for the thoughtful comments.

@Grotius:Yes you are correct "It's not as complex as AE,but nothing is". I needed to be reminded that it is unfair to use the AE monster as a benchmark [:D]

Another reason for proceeding with the purchase is that this is a very friendly and helpful forum. Thanks guys [sm=00000436.gif]



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/9/2012 7:12:56 AM)

You won't regret your purchase :)



jonny211 -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/14/2012 10:37:08 PM)

Hi all,

I've been considering getting this as I'm a fan of eastern front games, how would it compare to something like Korsun Pocket? The whole 'front' thing in KP is what drew me in compared to WITP where I was fighing over specks in the ocean, and never finished a game.

Cheers.

Jon



Grotius -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/15/2012 3:10:36 AM)

I played Korsun Pocket, and I remember liking it a lot, but I don't remember it too well now. As I recall, it was on a somewhat smaller scale than Case Blue, which is operational in scope -- 6-mile hexes, with regiments as the basic units. I like both KP and Case Blue. But then, I liked WITP too, whereas it sounds like you didn't.

Anyway, Case Blue certainly has fronts! Long lines of units snaking north and south, encirclements and counter-encirclements, cities and RRs and roads to capture, "Prestige" to earn (or lose), aircraft: there's lots of fun stuff here.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/15/2012 2:54:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jonny211

Hi all,

I've been considering getting this as I'm a fan of eastern front games, how would it compare to something like Korsun Pocket? The whole 'front' thing in KP is what drew me in compared to WITP where I was fighing over specks in the ocean, and never finished a game.

Cheers.

Jon


If you preferred Korsun Pocket to WitP then I would expect you to love DC, which is basically Korsun x 2 but without the overwhelming granularity of WitP. I own and love WitP AE, but like you, I have never completed a campaign.



jonny211 -> RE: Beer & Pretzels ? (8/16/2012 8:54:03 AM)

Well I have DC now, thought I'd give it a quick try yesterday evening and next thing it was 2am. Very much like KP's big brother and I'm having my own disaster on the Donets as the Germans, love it.



Templer_12 -> No Beer & Pretzels ? (8/16/2012 12:19:27 PM)

I own Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets, and play it very much.
But, the graphical UI is worse than for Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue.
And the AI, quite good, although not as good as Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue.

I can't find much similarity between SSG series and Decisive Campaigns series.
Beside colorful graphics. [:(]

I hope you will be happy with Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue.

You will discover that it is definitely no beer and pretzels.

But if you want to, you can while playing, of course, place beer and
Pretzels on the side of your desk. [:D]



Kipper -> RE: No Beer & Pretzels ? (8/25/2012 7:14:02 PM)

Folks some advice please? I am thinking of making the plunge into DC after a layoff from wargaming. I love operational games, am an East Front nut and also think Vic is a genius coz I love AT/AT Gold. But I am thinking that the smaller scenarios of CD Warsaw to Paris might be a less formidable learning environment. Smaller scenarios, for example. Then I get Case Blue after I am comfortable with the system. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.



Keunert -> RE: No Beer & Pretzels ? (8/25/2012 7:21:49 PM)

I would just jump in the recent title. It sounds like you are an experienced wargamer and the DC series will make you feel at home fast. Case Blue has more small scenarios to learn the game. and if you are an eastfront fan i would go with the new one.

I also think that both games really shine in pbem and the new title has really an advantage here: the Slitherine server system and a lot of players willing to battle.



budd -> RE: No Beer & Pretzels ? (8/25/2012 7:28:30 PM)

You'll be mostly right at home with the UI because you played At/ATG, there very similar. I purchased both since DC1 was on sale,but I started with case blue smaller scenarios and having fun with it.
Since you mentioned ATG, there is a new beta patch for ATG in case you didn't know.



Kipper -> RE: No Beer & Pretzels ? (8/25/2012 8:14:09 PM)

Thanks very much for the advice I'll head off and buy DC: Case Blue. I'll wind up buying Warsaw at some stage as I am keen to support Vic, not often a designer of his talent comes along. Thanks for the tip about the ATG patch BTW!!!



RCHarmon -> RE: No Beer & Pretzels ? (9/1/2012 4:31:50 PM)

Because of the posts by Redmarkus4 I'll be getting the game.

I am too much of a history guy and I like to see historical results if I play historically, then when I play the "what ifs", I try to see and understand the battles from a different vantage point; but don't get me wrong I understand that it is always a game. Nothing will ever be perfect.

I did read a post where it was said that this game made adjustments to make it more playable. I hope that is not the case, but I will soon learn. I understand that some adjustments must be made; I just hope this game retains a historical flavor.

I was terribly disappointed with WITE. It fails in too many areas and I am done with the template(so I will not be getting WITW). I will give credit and will say that WITP AE is a very good game. I own Garys War Between the States which is a good game though it doesn't properly resemble history. SOWG is a great game that I have played for a while now.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: No Beer & Pretzels ? (9/1/2012 9:23:38 PM)

Welcome to the DCCB club! While there are some historical points that Grognards report with the game:

1. Most will be fixed or modded out pretty soon.
2. The overall game play makes up for the issues - no crazy AI super carpets or insane winter rules to deal with here.

I am a seasoned war gamer with 40 years experience going all the way back to Avalon Hill and all that. DCCB is the best overall east front computer war game experience I have had to-date, bar none.



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