RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (Full Version)

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Michael T -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 1:34:42 AM)

I see it like this. Baring glaring incompetence by either of us from now on, and the game state as it is bewtwen us, any game that claims to be a half decent game on the war in Russia from 1941 to 1945 should result in a crushing defeat for Germany. So if I ultimately win at least one aspect of the WITE model will be proven correct. That if this strategy had been applied in the real war it would have meant an early defeat for Germany.

If Pelton wins then I would claim WITE is a very poor game on the war in Russia. Remember I am assuming competent play on my behalf from here on in. If he were to win because I make some gross error or he pulls off some absolutely brilliant summer 42 campaign that is a different matter and he would deserve his victory and be vindicated in his views. But I see no evidence that is likely to occur.

If you believe that in the real war Germany could have won or drawn through this ploy then we are not on the same page and it is pointless in debating this outcome. I will never subscribe that if Germany did this that she could have won or drawn the real war.



Tophat1815 -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 2:58:07 AM)

All due respect MT but:

1)Zukov and the Mars offensive,utter failure......

2) The 6th Army at Stalingrad being allowed to fight its way out of the box instead of holding fast.

3) Manstien having the additional forces of 6th army and various odds and ends available to him in winter 42'-43'.

4) Someone listening to Guderian and German mobile forces being brought up to strength in 43' while on the strategic defensive.

You are assuming the Germans were simply doomed with no hope of ever doing any better than they did in WWII. There are many more instances I don't address from not stranding Army group North/Courland to redeploying more troops from Norway. Would the Reds have won,most probably,could the war have been prolonged also most probably.

The end result is you still have to actually get the win,not just declare yourself the winner. If you want to declare victory go right ahead and do so but pelton's says he's willing to go through the effort to try and win. He thinks he has a case with the morale system the way it is to tie you up and keep you from a decisive win. hell if all you think is that a marginal win is inevitable then just stop playing it now.

My little rant is due to your a crushing defeat for Germany is inevitable statement or the game is not a good representation of WWII on the eastern front. Never take competent play as a given certainty. Did anyone expect Pelton to do what he's done? Who knows,you seem rather rash perhaps you'll go and get that Big Red machine of yours tits in a blender.



Michael T -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 3:24:00 AM)

I think you misunderstand me. Nevermind.



Tophat1815 -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 3:36:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I think you misunderstand me. Nevermind.



Sorry if I did. Was really looking forward to this matchup,perhaps I had unrealistic expectations that have colored my perception.



Michael T -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 3:54:57 AM)

The game goes on. No one has given up. Pelton is on vacation.



Michael T -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 4:48:54 AM)

Anyway back to the game. Anyone care to predict where Pelton's stop line will be in his retreat? He has reached the Dneipr in the Centre and we are still a turn away from the blizzard. I am pursuing with mostly Cav now and some Inf. My main front line is several to many hexes further east.



Fishbed -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 8:41:48 AM)

Any way you could take the sweet opportunity of pushing Finland out of the war in 1942?



randallw -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 9:10:14 AM)

I am not sure if Pelton has some secret sneaky devilish plan in progress, or is simply doing something that is desperation, suffering results of the game he is not accustomed to.



Michael T -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 9:35:06 AM)

I have considered the Finnish question. I think if he goes all out attack in 1942 I will just maintain the status quo there. If he turns turtle I will seriously consider building a bunch of INF Corp and using the Finns as training/morale fodder.



Fishbed -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 10:31:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I have considered the Finnish question. I think if he goes all out attack in 1942 I will just maintain the status quo there. If he turns turtle I will seriously consider building a bunch of INF Corp and using the Finns as training/morale fodder.


Yeah, why sacrifice usefulness or pleasure when one can have both ^^



Michael T -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 10:48:22 AM)

End Soviet T23 (20 Nov 1941) Snow

Sov OOB 6.4
Sov Cas 2.12
Sov Dis 0.799
Sov Man 2907
Tr Pool 214
Tr Units 138
Tr Repair 45
Total Tr 397

Ger OOB 3.34
Ger Cas 0.538
Ger Dis 0.355
OP AFV 1725


No more updates till Pelton returns sometime next week.


[image]local://upfiles/22630/1CC1C493C05B46A08B541EC64693FB46.jpg[/image]



Fishbed -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 12:24:41 PM)

haha. We actually nearly see more of Pelton's army than of yours on that screen [:D]
Any reason you'd suspect some spying from a ring of German sympathizers? [&:]



Ketza -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 2:22:23 PM)

I now use the Finnish front in 42 as an area to train up new Soviet units especially tank Corps. Its one of the reasons I do not use the bottleneck strategy.

Its kind of annoying however when the Finns keep surrender so easy.



Flaviusx -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 3:59:59 PM)

If you want to knock out the Finns in 42 you may actually want to build a handful of arty brigades for that. (Not lots, a half dozen maybe.) It can be tough sledding up there with just rifle corps, especially 42 rifle corps.

Pelton's stop line presumably will rest just outside the blizzard zone given his obsession with preserving morale.



Seminole -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 4:50:11 PM)

quote:

If he turns turtle I will seriously consider building a bunch of INF Corp and using the Finns as training/morale fodder.


I had an opponent that basically stopped AGN on the Daugava river line and tried to dig in there once. I stopped him in the center and south and had an excellent blizzard since he hadn't pressed me hard and tried to stand fast in his forts with reserves. I created three armies of Guards Rifle Corps in '42 and over a dozen arty bdes, but couldn't crack the Finns line with them. Partially my fault for not assigning sappers to the corps (it was my first campaign against a person, second overall), but the Finn morale/exp/terrain/forts were giving me ugly losses.
I got more creative.



Ketza -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 6:10:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If you want to knock out the Finns in 42 you may actually want to build a handful of arty brigades for that. (Not lots, a half dozen maybe.) It can be tough sledding up there with just rifle corps, especially 42 rifle corps.

Pelton's stop line presumably will rest just outside the blizzard zone given his obsession with preserving morale.


That is exactly what I do. My hope is to use them later to merge into newly created art divisions and add the experienced elements to them. Havent had a game go that far yet but the one I have now is getting into Nov 1942.

I have never had a problem mowing down the Finns using the arty brigades with engineers, tank corp reserves and lots of air support.



Flaviusx -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 6:36:59 PM)

Yeah, ordinarily I take a pass on the brigades, but then, this isn't an ordinary game, where I would ignore the Finns until 44. Even here you shouldn't go nuts with them, build just enough to get the job done and knock them out, no more. You really need arty divisions for the main show against the Germans. Especially if they are turtling hard.

Merging the brigades into divisions later on is a clever idea.



Seminole -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 8:49:25 PM)

quote:

Merging the brigades into divisions later on is a clever idea.


Does the game allow that? I don't recall a reference to it in the manual and loading up the '43 scenario I can't build up Lt Hwz Bdes into a Div.

If it is possible, which artillery units can be built up?



Michael T -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 9:18:00 PM)

The game does not allow it. It should IMO. See here. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3192234



glvaca -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 9:24:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Merging the brigades into divisions later on is a clever idea.


Does the game allow that? I don't recall a reference to it in the manual and loading up the '43 scenario I can't build up Lt Hwz Bdes into a Div.

If it is possible, which artillery units can be built up?

You CAN'T combine them into divisions, you can merge/disband them into a new arty division.



Michael T -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 9:56:19 PM)

quote:

You can combine them into divisions, you can merge/disband them into a new arty division


Are you sure about this? I tried and it did not work. It seems there is some confusion here.



glvaca -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 10:06:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

You can combine them into divisions, you can merge/disband them into a new arty division


Are you sure about this? I tried and it did not work. It seems there is some confusion here.

Apologies, it should be CAN'T combine them into divs but CAN...



Flaviusx -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 10:16:04 PM)

Merging a Soviet brigade into an already existing larger unit of the same type is generally possible. You can do this with rifle brigades vis a vis rifle divisions, tank brigades and tank corps, etc. This isn't the same thing as building a unit fresh from combining sub units. Which you definitely cannot do with artillery brigades and divisions.

This is an old trick to keep rifle divisions and tank corps up to strength that are already on the map. (The tank corps trick isn't usually seen outside the 43 scenario, granted.) No new unit is created in the process, but the smaller subunit is removed, and the larger unit absorbs the strength. The game will only allow it if the larger unit is weak enough. Units at or near full TOE cannot consume subunits of the same type otherwise.

I am not totally sure if this applies to arty brigades and divisions, but it should be doable.

Note that merges cost 1 AP to do, exactly the same price you would pay for disbanding a unit.



Schmart -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 10:42:11 PM)

Yes, there is a difference between 'Merging' and 'Building Up'. I hadn't thought about merging Art Bdes into Divs, but it's an intriguing idea. I think I will tinker around with it a bit.



Flaviusx -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 11:03:47 PM)

Ok, just tested this by firing up the 44 scenario: artillery brigade merges into understrength divisions are possible, with some restrictions.

You cannot merge, for example, a mortar brigade into an arty division. However that division appears to be able to absorb any type of gun brigade.

Rocket brigades can be merged into rocket divisions. This could be a good way to bring those up to speed fast, they are notoriously slow to fill out.

I did not test this, but presumably rocket brigades cannot be merged into tube arty divisions, nor will tube arty or mortar brigades be accepted into rocket arty divisions.

I also found a bug: the Soviets don't have any APs on turn one and shouldn't therefore be allowed to do any merges at all. But the game allowed it. This is very obviously exploitable and could allow people to do free merges.

Merges done on subsequent turns with a positive AP pool did cost one AP against the pool as expected.




Michael T -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 11:32:37 PM)

This is good info. Esp re the Rcts.



HITMAN202 -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/9/2012 11:42:57 PM)

To respond to Michael T.'s question about how far Pelton might run (the blizzard ending on turn # 37) with his front on turn #23 already back to the line ... Tallinin...Vitebsk...Poltava.... and 4 hexes east of Z-town .... I think Pelton will be so determined to preserve morale he will not let Michael T. attack, even at horrible odds. So 20-24 hexes further west (he would stop the retreat mid Feb, I think) would be the line, roughly, Riga to Odessa.



Ketza -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/10/2012 3:51:25 AM)

Wow my idea has merit!

I have a dozen or so 70+ brigades to merge someday!

Woohoo!

Ty for the experiment Flavius.



Tophat1815 -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/10/2012 3:51:32 AM)


Had things wrong,nothing to see here..........good luck in the game.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) (10/10/2012 4:39:54 AM)

Well the thing about merges is that it's rather inefficient use of precious APs, especially in 1942. You're going to spend minimum 5 APs on a brigade to give a depleted arty or rocket division you spend 10 more APs on a head start. I'm just not sure iit's worth it. Probably a case by case basis.

Of course you get the use out of the brigade until the division shows up, but still...



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