RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (Full Version)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/23/2013 6:49:35 PM)

June 2, 1942

Doldrums

Slow day, as so many seem to be these days.

1) Seven night strat bombing missions see one succeed. Kunming sees 1 Manpower hit for 320 Fires.

2) Day strat bombing shows 5 Oil hits at Djambi. At Kweiyang the industry continues to burn with 8 hits and 3166 Fires.

3) Sweep of Singers by P-38s finds 17 Nicks and a bunch of Rufes. Two downed for each side.

4) Lots of inconsequential sweeping and troop bombing all over the map.

5) The Big Stack might be catching a break. A movement dot on the IJA uber-stack in the conflict hex points back into Tsuyung. No way to know if it's partial, if he's moving his arty home, or what. Maybe he thought I'd stop once I saw what was in the uber-. If it moves out of the way I'm very happy. I'll keep going west. If it's partial then every LCU not there is good for China. Still weeks to go to see.

I just don't know what's going on here. Japan has largely gone to sleep, with key objectives untaken. I can't press hard yet, but I'm building in places which will allow some serious pressing later this year. Has he given up on taking PBang? My subs see almost no TFs in key choke points. Even the early heavy traffic in the Sea of Japan has largely dried up. Am I missing them, or is fuel starvation a concern? Why is there no effort to defend the few industrial targets reachable from Burma?

An aside: Mike told me he has given up his AAR both for RL time reasons and because it didn't attract much traffic. I'm disappointed as I had hoped to be able to put the two side-by-side, but I understand the time issue.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/23/2013 11:57:10 PM)

June 3, 1942

Recon-O-Rama

Flipped a turn today while watching the Twins beat the Indians.

1) Strat bombing continues mixed. Just don't have numbers to do much yet. Bangkok failed, Djambi took 9 Oil hits. Undefended Kweiyang 11 Manpower for 6315 Fires. Used A-20A Havocs for first time in strat role and they left the Oscars in the dust, out-running them and taking no losses.

2) Prome hit heavily by about 60 heavy bombers. No CAP there. Minor damage. Prome is a pretty huge bastion now, well-supplied, heading for Forts 4. I have a stack of P-40Es at Calcutta, but I don't see any reason to feed them into destruction at Prome or Ramree.

3) Lancer and Chinese biplane CAP got up at Chengtu and destroyed 2 Sallys and damaged 6. AF damage very light.

4) Allies do some light sweeping and much reconning. Benkoelen AF bombed; it is vacant. Ketapang probe swept; it is vacant. Former dot bases NW of Baker Island reconned and AF construction is well along. Moved more Cats onto Canton to prep for SNAGGLEPUSS. Moving Marine paras to theater and prepping Marine Raiders for deep targets reachable by SST.

5) Very large asset quantities headed for Solomons. Has not been an active theater so decided to nail it down while it's free. I don't foresee PM being a battlefield in this game, so some defenses are moving to forward defense. Rabaul will shortly be a major submarine base.

6) Small Cat unit snuck into Cebu and is pulling stranded, starving PI infantry from surrounding islands into Cebu where there is a bit of supply. Southern PI was never finished by Japan. Allies still hold two bases on Mindinao, and several on mid-PI islands.

7) Spent some time in Tracker going through all the TOE upgrades and moving units which need to be near supply to do so. About 20 LCUs in Oz, NZ, US Army, and RAF base forces upgraded today, and more upgraded selected devices.



crsutton -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/24/2013 5:37:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes, he was very good in that movie. He was also very good in one of the "I Love Lucy" episodes. Lucy has a big crush on him, but does something embarrassing and mortifying. Then Ricky invited Holden to the apartment, so Lucy disguises herself using modeling clay (which ends up melting).


OK, that's not in the attic. [:)]

Holden was huge, and then he seemed to just fade away. Sort of like Gary Cooper. Don't know if it was age, drinking, or something else, but the studio system was about as relentless as the media-driven life spans we see today in movie stars.


Well, Holden was a life long alcoholic and that really damaged his career. It caused a lot of on set issues and many directors just refused to work with him. But, if you have not watched "Network" in a while, I highly recommend it. One of the finest films to come out of the seventies (a great decade for cinema) and he won a lot of awards for the job he did. Truly a great role late in his life. Oh yeah, almost forgot "The Wild Bunch." Watch that one again.

I recently watched "Staglag 17" and "King Rat." Frankly, Stalag 17 just does not hold up. Not very well written with a lot of silly scenes in it. "King Rat" on the other hand, holds up well and is a brilliant film. A great novel as well.





catwhoorg -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/24/2013 12:41:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

An aside: Mike told me he has given up his AAR both for RL time reasons and because it didn't attract much traffic. I'm disappointed as I had hoped to be able to put the two side-by-side, but I understand the time issue.


Thats a shame. I love reading both sides of these AARs. Really helps me learn about PBEM in a way that just following along one side never can.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/26/2013 6:13:37 PM)

June 4, 1942

Focus Shifts

The movie file email was titled "Tit For Tat" and I didn't know what that meant. Not sure I do now. I think it speaks to a shift by Japan to try to hit the strat bombing basing since Batavia got roughed up today. Nothing fatal, but Batavia is pretty exposed and it has fewer engineers than PBang to fix runways. I also extended the perimeter for strat basing by moving heavy bombers deep into China to begin to threaten eastern China's industry. Fatigue kept them on the ground today for the most part, and their numbers are few, but it's a continuing evolution. It's possible the strat campaign is biting. Djambi, down to about 50 Oil from circa 200, recently went to AF 2 and today a very heavy CAP including 25 Nicks was found there.

1) A raid finally gets through at Rangoon. Only 3 Blenheims, but they start 312 Fires. Reducing the LI there would help pressure the huge garrison and put more supply on the water where I can get at it. Normally the refineries there throw off a lot of supply, but he has no oil supply from mid-Burma.

2) As above, Batavia is strongly swept (no CAP), then hit multiple times. Several B-17s are damaged on the ground and about 8 Runways points are recorded. Roughly 3 Bettys are downed.

3) The moving Big Stack is hit again and again, but casualties each day are in the 20s and 30s. It continues west at a mile a day. In the short term this is the biggest action brewing.

4) A Wellington unit moved from Burma all the way east to Lanchow (secure, with organic supply) hits Tsiaotso in eastern China. No damage is done, so it might have gone unnoticed. But a long list of industry is reachable from this location. Lanchow is away from heavy Japanese LBA, is at Forts 5+, and has over 1000 AV of defenders.

5) At Djambi as above only the A-20As hit the oil and are met by Nicks and Oscars. Five Havocs are lost, but intel is gained.

6) Prome takes in another Indian division. The Aussie 7th is very near too. All CAP has been withdrawn as AA is good, Forts as well, and there's no point in putting up five Hurricanes to be lost for nothing. Over 70 planes attack the AF for a bit of supply loss and damage to runways I'm not using.

7) One Chinese corps enters Rahaeng's hex which has three largish LCUs. The second is 3-4 days behind. Interesting to see if Japan fights outside the city to eject. The third corps continues west to cross the river unmolested and see what it can stir up over there.

8) In the Malaccan Strait the Dutch find a smallish TF and sink one xAKL. This looks like either supplies, or a support unit for Sumatra.

Sub attack near Malacca at 48,81

Japanese Ships
xAKL Malacca Maru, Torpedo hits 2, heavy damage
APD Nadakaze
xAKL Naruo Maru
xAKL Hiyori Maru
xAKL Yanagigawa
PB Showa Maru #5
PB Showa Maru #3

Allied Ships
SS O23

9) Construction:

Adak Island expands fortifications to size 2
Magwe expands airfield to size 6
Prome expands airfield to size 4
Christmas Island expands airfield to size 3
Agra expands fortifications to size 3
Bareilly expands airfield to size 3
Madras expands port to size 7
Horn Island expands fortifications to size 3
Okha expands port to size 3
Ondorhaan expands airfield to size 6



Canoerebel -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/26/2013 6:16:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

...One of the finest films to come out of the seventies (a great decade for cinema) and he won a lot of awards for the job he did. Truly a great role late in his life. Oh yeah, almost forgot "The Wild Bunch." Watch that one again.

I recently watched "Staglag 17" and "King Rat." Frankly, Stalag 17 just does not hold up. Not very well written with a lot of silly scenes in it. "King Rat" on the other hand, holds up well and is a brilliant film. A great novel as well.


This is a great example of "different strokes for different folks." Stalag 17 is one of my favorite WWII movies. My whole family, including my WWII-vet father, agree. On the other hand, we universally deplore the 1970s as the black hole of terrible movie making. There were some isolated exceptions, but by and large the decade was a pit of despair for films.



BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/26/2013 6:29:29 PM)

Fort building in Agra?? Are you paranoid or are the locals preparing to repel the British?[:D]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/26/2013 6:30:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Fort building in Agra?? Are you paranoid or are the locals preparing to repel the British?[:D]


I build EVERYWHERE. (Future opponents take note. [:)]) I'm building forts in Winnipeg. Why not?



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/26/2013 7:39:26 PM)

Just opened the next turn, and the situation in northern China has evolved.

The entire Japanese stack has moved back into Tsuyung, out of the way of the oncoming Big Stack. This is good. However, there is a new movement dot aiming back up the yellow road through the mountains, to the east. My hypothesis is he's moving this vast concentration of power back to deal with Chengtu and Chungking. Probably leaving a stiff garrison at Tsuyung, but we shall see. That is a needed base if ever the road from Rangoon is to open, but I also want the Big Stack in Burma and Indo-China.

[image]local://upfiles/31387/3BF52664D1EE458A8171D30A5FBB3999.jpg[/image]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/27/2013 6:01:40 PM)

June 5, 1942

Batavia Bashing

1) I-30 gets another xAK (Empire Glen) in the route between Calcutta and Chittagong. Escorts are few because Calcutta's building was focused on AF and not port, with is 5.5. No AKEs available, so the port is on rapid-build to get to DC-rearm status. I have xAKs to spare, but I hate giving them away.

2) Prome, devoid of CAP and all aircraft really, is plastered by scores of heavy bombers. 29 casualties and a lot of holes. The base supply is around 7000 even with large-scale construction and almost 2000 AV of garrison. I've said it over and over here and even in some AARs--Japanese players often rely far too much on air power because that's what they have a lot of. It is not decisive against fixed emplacements. It's a bother, it requires replacements and supplies to maintain an even keel, but it is not a substitute for taking land and standing on it.

3) Japan seems to have realized that strat bombing in this game is going to be a thing and it's not going to stop, so Batavia, home of some of it, is heavily targeted for a second day. A couple of P-38s are on 39,000 ft. max range, drop-tanked CAP, and they worry at the attackers in every way they can. The AF is damaged, but no planes on the ground. (They're off flying.) Four Bettys are damaged, one lost, plus a downed Zero. The P-38s are damaged and probably one is lost to ops.

RockyRoo PMs me from his secret bunker to be aware of the Fires rule re industry bombing. That industry destroyed by Fires is not repairable, and I should be careful to not firebomb supply-generation I might want to use myself someday. A valid point I had not fully thought through. I am firebombing now not because I like it but because with my tiny raids it's the most damage for the risk. In AI games I had never done it outside the HI at the end of things. I am getting good results on Oil from daylight efforts; Manpower/fire attacks have been to get at HI more than any other type of industry. But I need to ponder this some.

4) Heavy raids on Chengtu find up to 7 Chinese Lancers on CAP, and even with poor planes the Chinese pilots, who are very well trained right now, do a lot of damage. 4 Sallys are destroyed and 6 damaged. The AF attacks are disrupted.

5) The normal bombing near Rahaeng does little, but then the Japanese Shock attack the lone Chinese corps in the hex. A lot of readers might think I'm crazy to do this, but I have reasons. The Chinese corps is roughed up a lot and retreats, but Japan loses some men. Most importantly the attack tells me that my Wandering Band has forced three IDs to sit at Rahaeng for at least a month now, rather than being up-country threatening Toungoo while that base frantically builds and tried to pull in some supply (after being at 20 for a month, Toungoo two days ago rocketed to 815 supply.) Three IDs squatting to deal with three Chinese LCUs I see as fully expendable (they resurrect at Chungking at worst) is a great outcome. Right now another corps is aimed at Rahaeng about 20 miles out. It may be re-pointed to do mischief on the RR. The third is about to cross the river west-bound and may keep going to the coast to cut the RR south north of Tavoy. Crazy because I lost some VPs? Meh. I predict the Allies will net gain VPs this turn due to aircraft losses. The Chinese VP ratio rule is a powerful friend to the Allies.

Ground combat at Rahaeng (58,56)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 38674 troops, 360 guns, 153 vehicles, Assault Value = 1268

Defending force 7932 troops, 38 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 268

Japanese adjusted assault: 1550

Allied adjusted defense: 95

Japanese assault odds: 16 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), fatigue(-) hmmmmmmm

Japanese ground losses:
1063 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 86 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled

Allied ground losses:
2357 casualties reported
Squads: 110 destroyed, 57 disabled
Non Combat: 115 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 7 (1 destroyed, 6 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating! toward Toungoo

Assaulting units:
12th Division
15th Division
57th Division

Defending units:
29th Chinese Corps

6) Four P-38s sweep Djambi and now find 33 Nicks and 8 Oscars. A bit of closing the barn door after the horse is gone, but I like whacking on Nicks. Evidence the R&D program is catching? I don't know Japanese R&D schedules well enough to say. P-38s down a Nick for no losses to themselves.

7) With Wake secure and Rabaul undergoing explosive growth, multiple patrol units are moved in and start snooping. For SNAGGLEPUSS I need to know where the KB is, or isn't. Hard to tell from the movie, but it looks like Truk is clean, Ponape has a garrison of some kind, and Eniwetok is empty. Will confirm on the next turn. I would be perfectly happy if the KB were in the HI early for upgrades, or even if it were over getting ready to help on Sumatra or Java. Anywhere but Truk or Kwajalein.



Justus2 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 12:45:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

June 5, 1942

Batavia Bashing
3) Japan seems to have realized that strat bombing in this game is going to be a thing and it's not going to stop, so Batavia, home of some of it, is heavily targeted for a second day. A couple of P-38s are on 39,000 ft. max range, drop-tanked CAP, and they worry at the attackers in every way they can. The AF is damaged, but no planes on the ground. (They're off flying.) Four Bettys are damaged, one lost, plus a downed Zero. The P-38s are damaged and probably one is lost to ops.


I thought drop tanks hinder planes on CAP, why are you using drop tanks on the P-38s? or are they flying LRCAP from another base?



Canoerebel -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 1:04:12 AM)

Moose, I know that One-Eyed has ceased keeping his AAR, unfortunately. What's your assessment of his overall game morale? (If you've already discussed this recently, I missed it; so just point me to the discussion.) He's certainly in a bad position, given your unorthodox and highly successful play, so I wonder if he's waging a deteriorating morale battle?



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 5:33:55 PM)

Note on June 5 turn:

Net VP gain for Allies on day, even with ground battle, is 14.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 5:38:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

June 5, 1942

Batavia Bashing
3) Japan seems to have realized that strat bombing in this game is going to be a thing and it's not going to stop, so Batavia, home of some of it, is heavily targeted for a second day. A couple of P-38s are on 39,000 ft. max range, drop-tanked CAP, and they worry at the attackers in every way they can. The AF is damaged, but no planes on the ground. (They're off flying.) Four Bettys are damaged, one lost, plus a downed Zero. The P-38s are damaged and probably one is lost to ops.


I thought drop tanks hinder planes on CAP, why are you using drop tanks on the P-38s? or are they flying LRCAP from another base?


I did a forum search on this as I am nobody's expert on CAP. Many threads going back to 2009. From what I can best tell drop-tanks add fatigue to CAP pilots at a faster rate, but do not hinder dogfighting. They give more range (what I was after) at the cost of the supplies. Dropping the tanks is presumed I think. What I've never been totally clear on is how the CAP range influences combat passes, range needed for the attack to "burn through." In a turn-based game I don't think the RL loiter time advantage comes into it, but I could be wrong.

But it's an excellent question.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 6:00:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Moose, I know that One-Eyed has ceased keeping his AAR, unfortunately. What's your assessment of his overall game morale? (If you've already discussed this recently, I missed it; so just point me to the discussion.) He's certainly in a bad position, given your unorthodox and highly successful play, so I wonder if he's waging a deteriorating morale battle?


As you know, CR, an AAR performs many functions. This one is a daily diary for archival purposes, a handy reference tool for me to look back at force dispositions, a place to muse on strategy, a joke palace, a place for reader questions, and a record of the game's externals. Let me say a piece on that last one and try to answer your question.

First, on Mike. He is one of the happiest people I've ever known. Supremely well-balanced in his life, family, career, hobbies. His job runs hot and cold, with some travel to not-so-nice towns. He has to work some weekends and gets comp time. He has a job where summers are intense times. He also does a lot of satellite things relating to his job which take time and evenings away.

When we set this game up he committed to 4-5 turns a week at worst, and better sometimes. He has never, ever failed to meet that promise. He has sent turns from motel rooms in hell. He has sent them while sick. He has sent them in the middle of the night, and at 0600 very often before work. He communicates perfectly to set expectations on the coming days. No one could wish for a better game partner in that respect. He also does not chat about the game in emails, or give away events in the movies. We don't worry about opsec between us. We do talk about numerous other things in emails with turns attached. He's a funny guy.

All that said, one thing I have learned in this, my first PBEM, is 4-5 turns a week isn't my rhythm. We're closing in on a year real-time playing and are still in June 1942. I have trouble keeping things straight in my head when we miss two days in a row. I want to play faster, at least a turn a day. If I play another game I will specify this up front. Or play 2-day turns.

Second, is Mike winning, or am I? I think I am; I don't know what he thinks. I think I am because of VPs primarily, but also because so far I have succeeded in choking the petroleum industry a lot, and by still holding bases which would provide huge VP mines as well as free Japanese forces to go do other needed things. There hasn't been a lot of naval attrition on either side, and I'm ahead in planes lost by about 500, but overall we have not clashed to any great extent except in Operation FUDD (limited Allied victory in that I hold Toungoo and he does not hold any oil bases in Burma.) I am beginning to move into an expansion phase earlier than is normal. That said, he can still hurt me a lot in China and Burma. I would do many things differently in China if I did the Evacuation strategy again. But I have a two-year master plan in mind, and I'm not sure he does.

Finally, how is his morale?, you ask. I don't know that either. From our emails I think he's OK, but it could be whistling past the graveyard. Or, he might have huge operations unfolding to smash Java, take PBang, and roll up the I. Valley in Burma to Mandalay. I don't think so, but I can't see very far inside his world.

The key question is whether he'll quit. I suppose that's it. And I don't know that either. I made a huge deal when I set up the opponents wanted ad about playing for VPs and final victory. We discussed that. I know him well enough now to know he is an honorable man. I don't know, however, if the game is fun for him right now. On the chance it isn't I'm accelerating some of my moves to at least make the turns a little more "Hulk Smash!" in coming weeks. If those moves work the game might not be fun after they're over and we may need to talk. If they fail he has a new lease on life VP-wise and I need to step carefully for awhile while the toy factory works back home.

I don't know if that answers the question, but it's what I know now. No matter what happens I know 1000% more about this fine game's internals than I did a year ago. That's not nothing.



BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 6:17:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

June 5, 1942

Batavia Bashing
3) Japan seems to have realized that strat bombing in this game is going to be a thing and it's not going to stop, so Batavia, home of some of it, is heavily targeted for a second day. A couple of P-38s are on 39,000 ft. max range, drop-tanked CAP, and they worry at the attackers in every way they can. The AF is damaged, but no planes on the ground. (They're off flying.) Four Bettys are damaged, one lost, plus a downed Zero. The P-38s are damaged and probably one is lost to ops.


I thought drop tanks hinder planes on CAP, why are you using drop tanks on the P-38s? or are they flying LRCAP from another base?


I did a forum search on this as I am nobody's expert on CAP. Many threads going back to 2009. For what I can best tell drop-tanks add fatigue to CAP pilots at a faster rate, but do not hinder dogfighting. They give more range (what I was after) at the cost of the supplies. Dropping the tanks is presumed I think. What I've never been totally clear on is how the CAP range influences combat passes, range needed for the attack to "burn through." In a turn-based game I don't think the RL loiter time advantage comes into it, but I could be wrong.

But it's an excellent question.

It seems to me that loiter time depends on how many hexes short of "extended range" the CAP is working. If the drop tank adds two hexes to that range and the CAP only goes one hex further, it will have more loiter time. If the CAP goes all the way to maximum extended range with drop tanks, it will have the same meagre loiter time as CAP without drop tanks operating to their max extended range. When you reach "bingo fuel", you gotta head back, even if you just got there!



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 6:33:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

June 5, 1942

Batavia Bashing
3) Japan seems to have realized that strat bombing in this game is going to be a thing and it's not going to stop, so Batavia, home of some of it, is heavily targeted for a second day. A couple of P-38s are on 39,000 ft. max range, drop-tanked CAP, and they worry at the attackers in every way they can. The AF is damaged, but no planes on the ground. (They're off flying.) Four Bettys are damaged, one lost, plus a downed Zero. The P-38s are damaged and probably one is lost to ops.


I thought drop tanks hinder planes on CAP, why are you using drop tanks on the P-38s? or are they flying LRCAP from another base?


I did a forum search on this as I am nobody's expert on CAP. Many threads going back to 2009. For what I can best tell drop-tanks add fatigue to CAP pilots at a faster rate, but do not hinder dogfighting. They give more range (what I was after) at the cost of the supplies. Dropping the tanks is presumed I think. What I've never been totally clear on is how the CAP range influences combat passes, range needed for the attack to "burn through." In a turn-based game I don't think the RL loiter time advantage comes into it, but I could be wrong.

But it's an excellent question.

It seems to me that loiter time depends on how many hexes short of "extended range" the CAP is working. If the drop tank adds two hexes to that range and the CAP only goes one hex further, it will have more loiter time. If the CAP goes all the way to maximum extended range with drop tanks, it will have the same meagre loiter time as CAP without drop tanks operating to their max extended range. When you reach "bingo fuel", you gotta head back, even if you just got there!


I agree with that in theory, but inside the turn there's no "time." There's only 12-hour phases, plus asset interactions which consume ops points. There's no way to know if the incoming bombers are in hour-one of the phase or hour-seven. I "think" all drop tanks get you is the range, and it's range for the whole phase until ops point consumption makes the CAP head home.

I think. If Lobaron is reading I'd appreciate a weigh-in.



BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 7:50:30 PM)

I think we are saying the same thing Bullwinkle - ops points = time, n'est-ce pas?

The program randomizes when the CAP will actually depart home base and therefore when they will arrive at destination. Same with incoming opposition. From there it just has to decide if they are in the same space at the same time/ops point usage. If the enemy is starting from a closer place and leaves early enough, it arrives before the VLR CAP. If it is delayed by random events, it arrives at the same time or during loiter time or after the CAP must return home.

I did a calculation in another AAR where the CAP only had 11 minutes warning @ 40 nm, and the incoming bombers were only going 245 knots - a reasonable average bomber speed. Therefore during a brief loiter of 20-25 minutes an incoming bomber strike could cover two hexes and arrive in time for a battle. I suspect our loitering VLR CAP would only have fuel for one high speed pass though!



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 8:21:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think we are saying the same thing Bullwinkle - ops points = time, n'est-ce pas?

Not versus real-world conditions re loiter time. A P-38 with drop tanks couldn't spend 12 hours in the air, 10 of it on CAP station.

The program randomizes when the CAP will actually depart home base and therefore when they will arrive at destination.

I'm not sure it does that outside the CAP base hex. From combat reports it's clear there is "time" and "distance." Detection ranges and time to take off and climb, etc. But if a P-38 is set to Range=7 CAP with drop tanks, my impression has always been that it "pops" into the phase at Range=7 already, with randoms then applied to interception. IOW, I don't think there is transit time built in. But I could be 100% wrong.

Same with incoming opposition. From there it just has to decide if they are in the same space at the same time/ops point usage. If the enemy is starting from a closer place and leaves early enough, it arrives before the VLR CAP. If it is delayed by random events, it arrives at the same time or during loiter time or after the CAP must return home.

If there is detection-based reaction from more than the base hex away I don't see that. And outbound CAP doesn't radio back and tell base--from 200 miles out say--that a raid is coming their way. I think.

I did a calculation in another AAR where the CAP only had 11 minutes warning @ 40 nm, and the incoming bombers were only going 245 knots - a reasonable average bomber speed. Therefore during a brief loiter of 20-25 minutes an incoming bomber strike could cover two hexes and arrive in time for a battle. I suspect our loitering VLR CAP would only have fuel for one high speed pass though!

I just don't know how the game works with more than one hex detection, with radar for example. It's easier if the CAP is over the base. But I don't know if CAP at Range=7 is pulled home to fight, or what.



Lomri -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 8:52:47 PM)


Hmm. I had not noticed or considered that drop tanks add fatigue. Or perhaps is it that WHEN you use drop tanks you TEND to have a higher range set? If you had drop tanks on a fighter with range set to 0 would you get "higher than no-drop tank" level fatigue?

I ask here only on the off chance that someone has played around with it and will answer :) (I probably won't bother since it sort of isn't a big deal).



BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/28/2013 9:04:25 PM)

Bullwinkle, I was not trying to get into detection algorithms at all - just suggesting that there is a range of ops points for the LRCAP unit at which it is considered "on station" and that could easily coincide with an incoming strike, even if the loiter time is quite brief. Whether they detect/make the intercept etc. is a whole 'nother ball of wax.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/29/2013 2:10:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lomri


Hmm. I had not noticed or considered that drop tanks add fatigue. Or perhaps is it that WHEN you use drop tanks you TEND to have a higher range set? If you had drop tanks on a fighter with range set to 0 would you get "higher than no-drop tank" level fatigue?

I ask here only on the off chance that someone has played around with it and will answer :) (I probably won't bother since it sort of isn't a big deal).


It's all over the early threads on this topic, but I suspect it is all range-related. I don't think loiter time enters into it in a Range=0 CAP. But as I've said, CAP is among the most opaque topics in the game for me. Picturing a real world model gets you in trouble.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/29/2013 2:17:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Bullwinkle, I was not trying to get into detection algorithms at all - just suggesting that there is a range of ops points for the LRCAP unit at which it is considered "on station" and that could easily coincide with an incoming strike, even if the loiter time is quite brief. Whether they detect/make the intercept etc. is a whole 'nother ball of wax.


Just to be clear, here the P-38s were on CAP, not LRCAP, with drop tanks. They were not positioned over a non-own-base hex. I agree if I LRCAP, say, Djambi from PBang the LRCAP has a store of ops points it can "spend" in encounters and it heads home when they're gone. What I don't know is exactly how a CAP flight at Range=7 behaves across the 12-hour phase. It seems from observation that if a raid comes through the Range=7 circle (360 degrees as there is no vector as with an LRCAP station) there is a calculated chance of some kind there will be a fight. And that the CAP seems to "follow" the attackers back to the CAP home base, fighting many passes as they go. OTOH, there is no outbound detection or fighting between home base and Range=7.

So, the reason I was using drop tanks was just to push the circle out two more hexes in order to "buy passes" for fighting on the way back to the CAP base. There has to be a good reason CAP can be set from 0 to the max of the fighters, some trade-off for the fatigue and airframe wear and tear greater then simple scramble and climb-to-altitude time. If I'm wrong on this I've been wrong for a long time. [:)]



BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/29/2013 2:27:32 AM)

D'OH! [head slap here]. CAP is a different animal - I thought the topic was LRCAP where a single hex is the focus.
We been talking horses and hippos here!
Disregard what I blathered about and go on being as confused and wrong as you wish! [sm=innocent0009.gif]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/29/2013 2:34:01 AM)

June 6, 1942

Chinese Aces

1) I'm starting to like these Lancer pilots. In two encounters at Chengtu they destroy 4 Sallys, damage 4 more, and down 3 Oscars.

2) Two hexes east of Pearl an I-boat gets an escorted xAK John Hart, part of a series of 150,000 point supply convoys building the Hawaiian Islands. Pearl Forts go to 8 today.

Allied subs are now running in bunches north toward the PI with supply loads. Multiple no-decision ASW encounters near Balikpapan.

3) Night bombing of Rangoon, because I didn't cancel, starts 632 Fires. I definitely want Rangoon's supply-generation later, so I need to stop this here. A second night attack on the AF destroys two Nells. It is not over-stacked, but still rich with Japanese planes.

Another night raid on Chengchow, deep in his backyard, starts 6625 Fires.

4) Prome gets crunched, I assume to slow down forts. Supply here is now about 11,000 as the Aussie 7th Div. is safely tucked in, resting. AV at Prome is now almost 3000. Bassein is lightly defended since over 55,000 Japanese troops still sit on the road half-way to Toungoo.

5) The three Chinese corps near Rahaeng are heavily bombed, probably to finish off disabled squads. All told in four big attacks 48 Chinese become casualties. One corps is reaimed at Utterbeck, the defeated one from yesterday rests, and the third continues west for the river.

6) The USN force coming to the IO has made Colombo and is refitting. About half has been reformed and sent to DG to meet the TF carrying the 32nd ID onto the map for transport to Oosthaven and PBang by rail.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/29/2013 2:34:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

D'OH! [head slap here]. CAP is a different animal - I thought the topic was LRCAP where a single hex is the focus.
We been talking horses and hippos here!
Disregard what I blathered about and go on being as confused and wrong as you wish! [sm=innocent0009.gif]


I'm the Midwest distributor for confusion when it comes to the air models in this beast. [:)]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/29/2013 6:18:41 PM)

I received a private transmission from The Fox on the issue of CAP and drop tanks. He was just about to board the Orient Express for Istanbul--a crime needs solving. He had a blonde (six-inch heels, black miniskirt) on each arm and twin sterling silver cocktail shakers in holsters for easy access, but he still took time to correct my wildly off CAP notions.

To wit: there IS NO "CAP mission." There is Escort or some other mission, and CAP is the scraps left over. The range setting is for the other mission. I had this point made to me years ago in the forum by a since-departed participant, but I persist in looking at this interface design through the wrong end of the telescope. I think "setting CAP", not "setting escorts." Especially now, in 1942, when so many more of my missions are defensive.

Anyway, this is the relevant portion of The Fox's message:

"There is technically no CAP mission. It is a function of what is left over not performing another dedicated mission. So range set for the main mission is largely irrelevant for CAP purposes. Set range above 2 and it becomes completely irrelevant.

1. Cap only occurs over own base. Period.

2. Leaking CAP from another nearby base (or CV which is a mobile base) can occur provided that other originating leaky CAP source is no further away than 2 hexes and the leaky CAP source has a range allocated of at least 2 hexes.

3. You will not get leaky CAP if the leaky CAP source air unit has a range set to 0 (as it will all be allocated to fly over its own base)

4. When you see notation to the effect that airplanes are being recalled to meet the incoming strike you are not seeing a reference to planes being recalled from 7 hexes away. These are planes flying over and within the base hex (but up to 40 miles away which is still the same hex) or the odd planes that were tending to leak over to adjacent hexes (remember up to max of 2 hexes away) if their primary mission range was set to more than 0.

5. In your case, with a set range of 7, those Lightnings would have carried out their primary mission (presume escort) out to 7 hexes and the planes on the primary mission would not have been recalled back. Any planes you had set to CAP would have not flown out to 7 hexes and been recalled; instead they would have been loitering in the general vicinity of the base with the usual 1/3 in air, replenishing, on ground CAP routine.

Bottom line, drop tanks are of no benefit to maintaining a CAP. They are only of benefit to extending the range of the primary mission. All that having CAP with drop tanks achieves is a much higher supply consumption rate, with possible side effects in terms of pilot fatigue particularly if you drop below the 2x supply requirement and the plane defaults to extended range.

And with that I really do have to go to the railway station."



BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/29/2013 7:59:35 PM)

What would we do without Alfred! Our thanks to him again! [sm=happy0065.gif]

Newbie BlitzX is playing his first small scenario [British invasion of Pt. Blair] & asked me about CAP. I did not have the clarity of Alfred's knowledge, so I suggested some things but made it clear I was guessing.

What I do know is that the option to set a CAP % is only offered for Escort and Sweep missions.

If you set for Escort, some of your planes may go to accompany any bombers flying from your base OR from another base that the AI coordinates with. This is no way to run a railway if you want some consistent CAP at home.

I conclude that if you set your mission to sweep and specify own hex, range 1 or 2, they will do the CAP job and not go cavorting with bombers. Anyone got any other ideas on the settings?



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/29/2013 9:25:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

What would we do without Alfred! Our thanks to him again! [sm=happy0065.gif]



Umm . . . Alfred? Who? This is The Fox here. [:'(]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (6/29/2013 10:07:11 PM)

June 7, 1942

Blair Bashing

Pretty slow day.

1) Subs worry the Allies. I-23 off San Diego takes two penetrating hits from single DD on patrol. HMS Truant prosecuted twice in the northern Malaccan Strait with no hits; this is a daily up here as the RN watches for the move on Sabang. Pompano duds on a fat xAK in mid-South China Sea. I-16 flings at a just-repaired CL Marblehead, part of a cruiser force moving at Full to Kendari to hit the ever-present unloading TFs there. Fish miss and DD Tenedos tries but fails while using up most of her DCs. In the afternoon I-16 persists and puts one into USS Pensacola. Tenedos has three DCs left; all miss. Soerbaja is too small to take most/all CAs into the yard, so it's a transit for Pensacola once I see what's up with flooding. Rats.

2) Allies try to mix up the air war a little today with the scraps available. A night AF strike on Kendari by three Hudsons accomplishes nothing and loses two. Conventional night attack on Rangoon HI (not firebombing) loses two Blenheims and hits nothing. Rangoon has a CAP of at least 70, so it's night or nothing. Two B-17 raids on Singers' repair yards finds a 10 Oscar night CAP and hit nothing.

With Djambi's CAP at ridiculous levels Mitchells and Hudsons try a low AF attack and are met by 45 Nicks and 12 Oscars. A bunch of Allies are blowed up real good while doing three (3) runways hits. Back to Oil I think.

The P-38 sweep arrives to observe the burning bombers strewn about the ground and costs them one of their number for no Japanese losses.

The one bright spot is a fire raid on Chengchow, a second day. 3930 Fires.

3) Japan clocks Pt. Blair. I have P-40 CAP available at Calcutta, and it might be time to move it over. He can bomb Prome all he wants and I don't care. Pt. Blair has valuable TBs as well as a very crippled RN BB trying to fix minor flooding one point at a time. It's worth some CAP. Multiple Japanese raids take out three Mitchells and about four Albacores and damage about twice that. But the bombers leave the battleship alone.

4) Mid-PAC recon continues. Truk dl goes to 2/2 and reports 46 ships are in port there. The largest IDed are CAs, but I don't believe that. Eniwetok is still empty of human life as the dl climbs there too. Ponape seems to have one base force and a Level 2 AF now. No hint of the KB still.

5) 1st and 2nd USMC Divisions are formed at Pearl, put on Rest and Replace, and prepped for Kwajalein.



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