RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/29/2016 1:41:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Flicker Section 8.3.5 Counter Invasion Forces states that "Allied entry of Indo-China by the Chinese" triggers reinforcements. Tabiteuea is one of my favorite islands in the Gilberts - oops more later. If it says that it's either erroneous, out of date, or a recent change to the rules. My recollection from prior incursions into Vietnam by the Chinese is that it triggers the reinforcements in 1941 and 1942 but not 1943 or thereafter. I'm pretty sure about that, and it looks like Loka is very sure.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/29/2016 1:58:58 AM)
3/9/44 This turn was like a modern air battle - lots of missiles filed, some mistakes made, some important hits scored, and some flashes and smoke as missiles take off after chaff. It was a tumultuous, confusing, noisy, and productive turn. So much so, in fact, that I think it'll be easier to follow without using a map. I'll begin with the minor, easier to understand events and move on from there. Marshalls: I made two mistakes in this theater, though both amount to chaff more than substance. (1) I committed a small unit to invade Tabituea. Recon misled a bit and the landing force isn't enough to wrest the base from a small but more potent force ashore. I'll try again later; (2) I accidentally set a US RCT to deliberate attack instead of bombard at Roi-Namur. That didn't turn out well and the attack failed. The unit is slated to withdraw in 20 days, so I'll deal with this base later. I also had a little plan that didn't work out: I sent four DDs to Roi hoping John might also send a combat TF. He did, but I lost the only ship (a DD). None of his ships were wounded and slowed to draw attacks from strike aircraft. So it was an unsatisfactory day in the Marshalls, but this theater is pretty much irrelevant and the losses were minimal. Burma: John didn't put up any CAP. Allied 2EB mauled unprotected 12th Div/D, which then got pushed back by Allied mechanized units. 4EB worked over 12th Div/B at Mandalay. Allied units continue to advance and I think, but I'm not quite sure, that the Japanese are withdrawing more expeditiously. John has to commit fighters here or he's going to have 3 to 5 divisions really messed up. He may be in a position to do so given what happened in the DEI. Celebes: John scored an important and strong victory at Pare Pare, pushing back a stout Allied force and doing considerable damage. This resulted from two big bombardment TFs, several air attacks, and then a shock attack by fresh 19th Div. The Allied positions on Celebes are in peril. But what really has my attention is the speed, which resulted mainly from his use of his BBs. I don't want Celebes to collapse too soon, so I'm working on a way to address this. This was an important victory for John. He has at least three BBs and at least part of KB committed. Fun House: All preparations in CenPac are on schedule to make that March 20 departure. Death Star Junior is still in Shangri-La. In SoPac, Death Star was en route from Normanton to Townsville. I didn't really like the feel of this as it seemed to be taking the carriers out of the impact zone for a bit too long. The situation in Celebes made me reconsider. I'll probably recommit Death Star to the DEI (two carriers need one more day in port, so I have until tomorrow to finalize the plan). The carriers and their aircraft are refreshed and replenished and ready to go. Two good units 100% prepped for Taulaud-Eilanden have been ordered to load aboard good transports. This op was slated for later, but if Death Star is heading back to the DEI, I want the option of moving on Talaud, which is still lightly garrisoned. What happened in Celebes is the big news of the day. The German army is smashing through the Ardennes. I'm concerned, but I think I know what to do and when and where to do it. Let's see what happens.

BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/29/2016 2:19:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel quote: ORIGINAL: Flicker Section 8.3.5 Counter Invasion Forces states that "Allied entry of Indo-China by the Chinese" triggers reinforcements. Tabiteuea is one of my favorite islands in the Gilberts - oops more later. If it says that it's either erroneous, out of date, or a recent change to the rules. My recollection from prior incursions into Vietnam by the Chinese is that it triggers the reinforcements in 1941 and 1942 but not 1943 or thereafter. I'm pretty sure about that, and it looks like Loka is very sure. I'm sure you are correct - I forgot about the date part. I have just triggered the VM in my game but in 1942, so it was on my mind and I had to dump it! [:D]

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/29/2016 9:06:35 AM)
On Halloween Day, a friend and I hiked 14 miles in the Cohutta Wilderness Area of north Georgia. At the end of a 1,800-foot climb, we topped out on Cowpen Mountain. Smoke was boiling up from Rough Ridge, just to the east. The next day, the U.S. Forest Service closed the trail we had hiked up. Three days later it closed the entire Wilderness Area, which remained closed until December 6. In total, the Rough Ridge Fire burned 28,000 acres. We're returning to the Wilderness Area today to hike that same route. I want to see how the forest looks post-burn as compared to Halloween, when the fall colors were spectacular. I'm hoping I'll get the inspiration to finish a story about the Rough Ridge Fire, because thus far the words just aren't coming. During the day, I'll also be giving a lot of thought to the game. I think the Ardennes comparison is a good one - John's on the counteroffensive in the DEI. I'm going to have to do some good thinking and hope that the thoughts will come, unlike the words for that story. I have mutually exclusive, incompatible needs short-term. On the one hand, I can't abandon Celebes to its fate. John's BBs are too much of a threat. He might overwhelm the outposts over two or three weeks if I don't stop him from using his battleships. But, for reasons I can't go into yet, my carriers have an equally important mission elsewhere - actually considerably more important, though I'm not minimizing Celebes, but rather maximizing the other. I think I can get to Celebes in about seven to ten days but I want to go now. So I need time to weigh those things and make the best decision I can. Into the medium term, having the carriers in the DEI again will dovetail well with Fun House. If, by chance, I can stabilize Celebes and also pick of Talaud-Eilanden, then I'll be that much further ahead. But John isn't static here. He's moving. He has plans. The situation will continue to evolve. A lot to think about on a long hike. :)

Flicker -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/29/2016 7:04:50 PM)
I haven't used Chinese units to take Indo-China (because I read the manual) so I don't know when the triggering ends. Tabiteuea is a relatively good port 1 air 3 atoll with max 60,000 stacking, which in that area of the South Pacific is yuge.

BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/29/2016 7:40:04 PM)
In the various write-ups about the Ardennes battle most writers seem to think the Allies made a mistake by pushing the Germans back on a broad front rather than slicing in from North and South to cut off the salient. Would be interesting if you could cut off John's retreat path and have his ships and troops in the bag - but I understand that is still secondary to getting your next op into the heartland. Enjoy the hike. For now I am content to stay in my apartment and check out the animal tracks on the river with my binoculars. A good year for rabbits, apparently.

HansBolter -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/29/2016 7:52:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy In the various write-ups about the Ardennes battle most writers seem to think the Allies made a mistake by pushing the Germans back on a broad front rather than slicing in from North and South to cut off the salient. Would be interesting if you could cut off John's retreat path and have his ships and troops in the bag - but I understand that is still secondary to getting your next op into the heartland. Enjoy the hike. For now I am content to stay in my apartment and check out the animal tracks on the river with my binoculars. A good year for rabbits, apparently. Ridgeway was furious with Monty. After the 82nd airborne held for so long in the 'fortified goose egg' Monty ordered him to withdraw and 'straighten out the line'. Had Ridgeway and Patton been given their head they could have sliced the bulge right off encircling the krauts. Both were flabbergasted that Monty chose a frontal assault to push the bulge back in. sorry for derailing the thread...I am a huge student of the bulge and have played just about very game of it ever created. My beta AAR of Pieper's dash was stickied on the old and now defunct Battles from the Bulge forum. Just love the bulge analogy.

crsutton -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/29/2016 10:24:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel quote: ORIGINAL: Flicker Section 8.3.5 Counter Invasion Forces states that "Allied entry of Indo-China by the Chinese" triggers reinforcements. Tabiteuea is one of my favorite islands in the Gilberts - oops more later. If it says that it's either erroneous, out of date, or a recent change to the rules. My recollection from prior incursions into Vietnam by the Chinese is that it triggers the reinforcements in 1941 and 1942 but not 1943 or thereafter. I'm pretty sure about that, and it looks like Loka is very sure. This is correct. China and Vietnam have been historic enemies for a very long time and the Viet Minh would have been alarmed if Chinese troops entered the country early in the war. But by 1943, the Viet Minh were solidly in the Allied camp, so there would have been no activation. If I am not mistaken there were Chinese troops in Northern Vietnam for a while after the war to help disarm the Japanese. The Chinese were responsible for territory north of the 16th parallel, the British south of the line.

Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 1:51:11 AM)
Why can't they just say "north of 16 degrees"?

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 4:10:52 AM)
3/10/44 Long, long, long, difficult day hiking in the mountains. Long day. DEI: KB (or part thereof) is retiring to Soerabaja. Enemy troops are advancing. Allied positios are three: Makassar, Watampone, Polapo. I'm going to leave each garrisoned rather than combining. I need to buy some time, even if it means defeat in detail. It'll take John's troops time to get from one base to another. The situation in Celebes is critical. I don't want to lose these units. The bases are important, but fungible. It matters little whether I have them now or later. But the troops... Death Star: After much thought and a gulp or two, Death Star will commit to the "higher priority" mission. This is going to take it away from Celebes for 7 to 10 days. I'll explain more at a later date. Fun House: On schedule still. Burma: John's got a mess on his hands here. Once again, Allied 2EB evaporated an enemy unit (3rd Raiding Force) in open terrain. Good Allied units are penetrating to the main bases. John has got to bring fighters in, but his airfields have problems too. If he doesn't, his army is going to be pretty battered.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 4:38:23 AM)
P.S. Maps to resume tomorrow. It's been a busy couple of days here, but things return to normal in the morning. Except I have to go the DMV to renew my driver's license, producing 324 documents to prove that I am who I say that I am at that I don't look anything like John Cochran and that I am still supple enough to do remarkable things.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 3:51:31 PM)
With the Ardennes offensive in the early stages, I'm getting alot of information, but not enough to know exactly what's going on. The map is, at the moment, compicated and confusing. I'm in the midst of preparing for a major offensive while trying to understand what may be a major enemy counteroffensive. Here's what I think I know and what I think I want to do: 1. There is an enemy concentration of combat ships in the western Aluetians. NavSearch shows BBs, though I doubt that unless John is moving on the Allied bases. As with Celebes, the bases hold little real value to me. But I don't want to lose a bucketful of good troops. I just pulled an Australian division out of Adak a month ago, replacing it with much weaker units. But there are alot of engineers and AA units posted there. An enemy invasion might succeed, though it wouldn't accomplish anything that would have a longterm impact on the game (other than the point value of the troops). 2. Burma is turning into a mess for John. It's surprising that he didn't see this and react accordingly. Allied air power is just killing his units. He's got to stop this or retreat. And if he chooses the latter, he's going to have many messed up units and the Allies will probably have Rangoon in two months. 3. As I said last night, Celebes is a major problem. There I'm concerned only about the units, as the bases aren't critical long term (partly because there are so many others nearby that can serve the same purpose if I decide to move into the Java Sea). Other than the units in peril, I think John's commitment here is risky. If Fun House does what I think it will do, he's regret the time and infantry devoted to Celebes. However, if he does wipe out the Allied units there, it's probably worth it to him. 4. John has a sizeable carrier force employed, stripped of bombers and housing only fighters. So he was very worried about security and would flee if Death Star was moving that way. But this is not full KB. He has a stout carrier force somewhere. It would help me alot if I got lucky with a SigInt report or sub sighting or if John revealed them somewhere far, far away. 5. My carriers are involved in a super-secret, highly important mission - so important that it overrides even the Celebes emergency. But if I can account for most or all of his carriers, that will speed things up alot. Come on, John, show your hand!

BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 4:14:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Why can't they just say "north of 16 degrees"? Because it never gets that cool in Vietnam! I like the use of the word parallel - it is instructive for people who have never done any real navigation or map reading and slept through their geography classes (not me - I love maps). Youngsters I meet these days know how to use GPS gizmos but don't seem to understand what the numbers on them mean ...[sm=mad-1003.gif]

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 4:18:22 PM)
I love maps too. In the category of "information not to include on your resume," maps are my bathroom reading material. I switch them out occasionally, but right now I have a state map of Arizona and a park map of Yosemite. Why those places? Just random. I like maps of any place in the continental US, either because I've been there or hope to go eventually.

BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 4:30:26 PM)
Between boot camp and being a Scout leader I learned a lot of neat things you can do with maps - like using some graph paper to draw a skyline profile of a map section by plotting the contour intervals vs distance. Very handy when you are not sure where you are on the map.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 4:35:10 PM)
I did "compass and pacing" (orienteering) in college, including some intercollegiate contests. (I think I beat Clemson one day, which is definitely resume fodder). I have a huge stack of topographic maps covering most of northwest Georgia. I used them all the time. Not many people are comfortable bushwhacking these days. But if you know how to use a topographic map, there is no way to get disoriented or lost in the Georgia mountains.

bradfordkay -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 4:58:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel I did "compass and pacing" (orienteering) in college, including some intercollegiate contests. (I think I beat Clemson one day, which is definitely resume fodder). I have a huge stack of topographic maps covering most of northwest Georgia. I used them all the time. Not many people are comfortable bushwhacking these days. But if you know how to use a topographic map, there is no way to get disoriented or lost in the Georgia mountains. I like to quote Daniel Boone. Someone once asked him if he ever got lost. He pondered a moment and then replied, "No, but I'll admit I was a might confused for four or five days once." I am also a map fiend. I have a file cabinet filled with them and have always loved perusing maps. As a result, my friends claim that I have an atlas for a brain.

crsutton -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 7:00:55 PM)
As a third officer I lived with nautical charts. They were just instituting satellite navigation in my day, and we still relied mostly on the sextant. Something very satisfying about being able to locate your position using the stars. It is pretty sad to see how younger people have lost the feel for geography. You have to keep using it or you will lose it. GPS is wonderful but even I am losing my knowledge of the local streets. It is sort of like when you are the driver, you remember the route but if you are the passenger you admire the scenery and don't pay attention to the route. Nowadays we are all passengers.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 7:05:55 PM)
3/11/44 DEI: I had a better day in Celebes, due to a modest air victory but mostly due to John's BBs and CVs not being in proximity. See map for details. Burma: John had a very bad day in Burma, and I hope that's going to continue. See second map for details. NoPac: Those enemy "BBs" seen at Attu are apparently withdrawing to the SW. The threat level declines, accordingly. Fun House: Departure date is only 9 days away. So many ships! So many troops! So much time and analysis involved in the loading operation. Augh! But everything is on schedule. Marshalls: These islands no longer have true significance in the game. I thought John had withdrawn, so I moved to take bases with little forces. John reinforced and beat me back twice with almost-as-little forces. It doesn't really matter (unless one of us makes a mistake in committing good ships that end up sunk), but I wonder if both of us are using this theater to try to distract or mislead the other? [image]local://upfiles/8143/5ECDDD4F97EC4A44A0CEFA358387B51D.jpg[/image]

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 7:08:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton As a third officer I lived with nautical charts. They were just instituting satellite navigation in my day, and we still relied mostly on the sextant. Something very satisfying about being able to locate your position using the stars. It is pretty sad to see how younger people have lost the feel for geography. You have to keep using it or you will lose it. GPS is wonderful but even I am losing my knowledge of the local streets. It is sort of like when you are the driver, you remember the route but if you are the passenger you admire the scenery and don't pay attention to the route. Nowadays we are all passengers. That's exactly right. No youngsters have the slightest idea how to read a map (especially a topographic map). With their generation tethered to electronics, the ability to know where you are, where you are going, and how to get there, will be lost. I don't use a GPS. That's easy, since I don't have a cell phone or other electronic gizmo. So I'm still using the old-fashioned way of navigating. Being a luddite has its advantages.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 7:11:10 PM)
Burma and China [image]local://upfiles/8143/722667949350463F9FC2A775A7CB4B9F.jpg[/image]

Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 8:26:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Why can't they just say "north of 16 degrees"? Because it never gets that cool in Vietnam! I like the use of the word parallel - it is instructive for people who have never done any real navigation or map reading and slept through their geography classes (not me - I love maps). Youngsters I meet these days know how to use GPS gizmos but don't seem to understand what the numbers on them mean ...[sm=mad-1003.gif] Then you should also say "north" as just 16th parallel is ambiguous. Which one?!

Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 8:27:02 PM)
That map, from a Japanese perspective, is confounding. I just can't fathom letting an Allied player retain control of China like that.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 8:36:59 PM)
John declared his intent to "leave China alone" after he conquered Changsha in 1942. I urged him not to do so, but he's a navy guy. Eventually the preference not to handle the land war in China will cost him.

Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 9:54:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel John declared his intent to "leave China alone" after he conquered Changsha in 1942. I urged him not to do so, but he's a navy guy. Eventually the preference not to handle the land war in China will cost him. He should remove China from his mods, then! [:'(]

bradfordkay -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 10:32:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton As a third officer I lived with nautical charts. They were just instituting satellite navigation in my day, and we still relied mostly on the sextant. Something very satisfying about being able to locate your position using the stars. It is pretty sad to see how younger people have lost the feel for geography. You have to keep using it or you will lose it. GPS is wonderful but even I am losing my knowledge of the local streets. It is sort of like when you are the driver, you remember the route but if you are the passenger you admire the scenery and don't pay attention to the route. Nowadays we are all passengers. Speak for yourself. My mom (rest her soul) used to tell this story on me and my dad (who was not a good navigator). We lived in Richmond, VA from when I was three until just before I went to college. Mom's parents still lived in her hometown of Shreveport, LA. Twice we drove from Richmond to Shreveport for vacation - once when I was five and again when I was eight. During that second trip we were halfway across Tennessee when I piped up from the backseat "Dad, you were supposed to turn left back there." "I know what I am doing, son." was his response. Thirty minutes later he sheepishly turned to mom and said, "I think Brad was right. We missed our turn." He never questioned my directions after that...

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 10:49:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna That map, from a Japanese perspective, is confounding. I just can't fathom letting an Allied player retain control of China like that. B-29s at Chungking in 1944. Yum.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 10:55:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton As a third officer I lived with nautical charts. They were just instituting satellite navigation in my day, and we still relied mostly on the sextant. Something very satisfying about being able to locate your position using the stars. It is pretty sad to see how younger people have lost the feel for geography. You have to keep using it or you will lose it. GPS is wonderful but even I am losing my knowledge of the local streets. It is sort of like when you are the driver, you remember the route but if you are the passenger you admire the scenery and don't pay attention to the route. Nowadays we are all passengers. On Christmas we were all talking (GOTP, her 29-YO daughter, and her BF) about what cell phones have done to society. I mentioned that it was normal in the old days to have at least a dozen phone numbers memorized. GOTP and I both recited the number from our childhood homes. The millennials looked at us like we were circus freaks.

Anachro -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 10:59:25 PM)
Hey! Just 'cuz I'm a millennial doesn't mean I didn't do the same! Cellphones were not very common back in the 90's so I and all my friends memorized our home phone numbers. I could still recite it for you and I also remember having to use a big phone book as well as the Yellow Pages to make calls. Only later on when kids starting getting cellphones in junior high an high school did it start becoming common to save contacts. It's really Generation Z (post-millennials) that have grown up only having to use a save contact list.

BillBrown -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (12/30/2016 11:10:00 PM)
BR9-8350, home phone when I was in elementary school( about 1954 )

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