RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/14/2017 7:12:34 PM)

Think of the vast number of high school students today who have never heard of the Bismarck or George Patton or Leyte Gulf. Think of all the fascinating history that would hold their attention if taught properly.

And even then, they'd never learn about ARDs, Mulberries, the tremendous disinformation employed prior to D-Day, and so many other fascinating aspects of World War II history.

And then we can spread that history out to include any other era in history.

History is spectacular.



Lecivius -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/14/2017 7:15:22 PM)

Think of the vast majority of U.S. high school students who have no idea what, or where, Normandy even is [sm=sad-1361.gif]



paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/14/2017 7:51:48 PM)

They really need to start teaching history a lot earlier & make it part of the core curriculum.....



Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/14/2017 8:07:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

They really need to start teaching history a lot earlier & make it part of the core curriculum.....


It's all up to your local boards. Where I come from, public education was excellent and we did learn about all these things that the old geezers say kids these days should learn. Makes me just roll my eyes, like this! [8|]



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/14/2017 8:13:24 PM)

Oh, I hoped for another 50 pages :(



Anachro -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/14/2017 9:59:22 PM)

It's not just recent military history, they gloss over Western history (ancient to modern) in schools nowadays. I thought this myself back in high school where we only got the briefest of introductions to Greece and Rome, but spent a year on "World Cultures." Anecdotally, I queried several of my younger brother's friends (and him) and only a sadly small fraction could say with certainty who Marcus Aurelius or Augustus Caesar were. The dearth of knowledge becomes even worse as you move into the medieval ages and only begins to get somewhat better during the Renaissance.



Lovejoy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/14/2017 11:43:18 PM)

It's interesting to me that because in my school district, they covered little else aside from western history. World Culture and the ancient period was covered in 6th grade , greeks/romans/middle ages/renaissance in 7th grade, early american history in 8th, then in 9th it was Western history (from 1700 to 2005), and then american history from 1865 in 10th. After that, we had a government/civics requirement. All in all, fairly well rounded

Here's what I some of what I remember about Rome from my middle school class
Marcus Aurelius was one of the five "good emperors" (although he did appoint his son Commodus as emperor, which broke the tradition that the Emperor adopt an heir, rather than sire one). Augustus was Octavian, Julius Ceaser's nephew, and first emperor of Rome.



Flicker -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/14/2017 11:44:10 PM)

A few years ago I spoke with some elementary kids (including my nephew), and they told me that they learned that American Indians could dodge bullets. I shot them with a nerf gun to show that they couldn't dodge bullets. Their response: "we're not Indians".




Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/14/2017 11:45:51 PM)

It isnt different here in Germany sadly. When we got history classes back in school I was looking forward to it. I thought we would learn and talk about history.....yeah.
No one was interested, especially not the teacher. The books didnt offer anything I didnt knew already or had at home 1000 times better.
Even worse the teacher hated it that a girl knew something about it. I was basically discouraged everywhere to pursue that interest.

I had however an awesome math teacher who heard about it encouraged me and he even gifted me some nice books he didnt need anymore.



Bearcat2 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/14/2017 11:49:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy

It's interesting to me that because in my school district, they covered little else aside from western history. World Culture and the ancient period was covered in 6th grade , greeks/romans/middle ages/renaissance in 7th grade, early american history in 8th, then in 9th it was Western history (from 1700 to 2005), and then american history from 1865 in 10th. After that, we had a government/civics requirement. All in all, fairly well rounded

Here's what I some of what I remember about Rome from my middle school class
Marcus Aurelius was one of the five "good emperors" (although he did appoint his son Commodus as emperor, which broke the tradition that the Emperor adopt an heir, rather than sire one). Augustus was Octavian, Julius Ceaser's nephew, and first emperor of Rome.




Bad History teacher; Both Titus and Domitian were sons of Vespasian



Lovejoy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 12:35:24 AM)

Termite2

Not necessarily, bad student is more likely[8|]

I forgot about those two! She didn't tell us that Commodus was 1st son, that was my own silly recollection.



Anachro -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 1:25:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy

It's interesting to me that because in my school district, they covered little else aside from western history. World Culture and the ancient period was covered in 6th grade , greeks/romans/middle ages/renaissance in 7th grade, early american history in 8th, then in 9th it was Western history (from 1700 to 2005), and then american history from 1865 in 10th. After that, we had a government/civics requirement. All in all, fairly well rounded

Here's what I some of what I remember about Rome from my middle school class
Marcus Aurelius was one of the five "good emperors" (although he did appoint his son Commodus as emperor, which broke the tradition that the Emperor adopt an heir, rather than sire one). Augustus was Octavian, Julius Ceaser's nephew, and first emperor of Rome.



The discrepancy might be because I grew up in the great liberal state of California.



bradfordkay -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 4:09:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flicker

A few years ago I spoke with some elementary kids (including my nephew), and they told me that they learned that American Indians could dodge bullets. I shot them with a nerf gun to show that they couldn't dodge bullets. Their response: "we're not Indians".





There were native Americans who thought that they could dodge bullets. My guess is this is the information that was presented, but not what the kids got out of it.



Barb -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 6:13:23 AM)

Well i still remember my disappointment when I opened my History class book back at school - and there were 3 double-pages dedicated to 2nd World War in Europe:
- Starting with Nazis, Anschluss, Munich, Occupation of Czechoslovakia and Poland on page 1
- Continuing with Fall of Norway, Benelux, France, Yugoslavia, Greece and North African Campaign up to the Invasion of Russia on page 2
- Finally Battle of Stalingrad (maybe a Siege of Leningrad too), Battle of Normandy and Liberation of Czechoslovakia on page 3)

With almost no connection between them you would start to believe that between 1942 and 1945 there were just 3 or 4 separate battles in Europe that undid everything the Germany did before [X(]. Of course even a decade after the fall of comunism (1989) as I was at school (up to 2003), still the most important battle of all was Stalingrad (go figure [:D]) Battle of Kursk was hardly mentioned at all. And in between the 3 pages a theme of holocaust was mentioned too. So go figure how much space was left after having a few images in between.

Oh, and 1 double page was dedicated to War in the Pacific! Starting with China, jumping to Capitulation of Singapore, then Battle of Midway and the dropping of the A-bombs. [8|]

Of course some other themes were downplayed a "bit" too [:D] The focus of the whole History classes was on memorizing names, events and dates - like "When did the Colonies declared independence from Great Britain?" - Well I still remember the date (and no it is not due to a film where Will Smith&Co kicks quite few alien butts), but the wide picture simply wasn't present in the curriculum. Boston Tea Party and taxes as causes were mentioned as well as Capitulation at Yorktown. [:D] (thus making the 8 year war a matter of Tea party gone wrong and one siege [:-] without wider consequences for the world).

How one could make the proper understanding of events, their relation, impact, I still do not get. [8|]



HansBolter -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 11:07:12 AM)

I had little interest in history until two things happened to me in high school.

I met the guy who turned me on to wargaming and became my best friend.

I took two half year long classes my senior year and when I had to switch from one to the other at mid year I also had to switch my history class to another period.
The class I was switched into was the slowest students in the school and the class was taught by the basketball coach.
Since I was one of the advanced students in the school he recognized that I was going to be completely bored with the pace of his class.

Instead of making me sit with the class he gave me a weekly writing assignment allowing me to choose from a list of topics he provided.
He then gave me a full time hall pass for that period so I could spend it researching the paper in the school library.
I instead spent the class hour roaming the campus, usually going out to watch the girl's physical education classes.

I would then go to the city public library on Thursday evening, research and write the paper to turn it in on Friday.
Instead of memorizing dates and names I was given an opportunity to dig into history and really learn it.
I've been a student of history ever since.

So the man no one had any respect for as a teacher because they all believed it was a sideline for him while basketball was his main focus, turned out to be one of the best teachers I ever had.
Go figure....



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 1:55:00 PM)

Great story, Hans.

My school days were so long ago that I have a hard time remembering the quality of the history teachers. That's partly because I did so much reading and learning on my own that I was probably 95% self-taught (Kind of like Hans).



paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 2:09:24 PM)

I used to live in the 900s section of the library in elementary school....trying to get my kids interested in history as much as I was....



Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 3:14:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

It's not just recent military history, they gloss over Western history (ancient to modern) in schools nowadays. I thought this myself back in high school where we only got the briefest of introductions to Greece and Rome, but spent a year on "World Cultures." Anecdotally, I queried several of my younger brother's friends (and him) and only a sadly small fraction could say with certainty who Marcus Aurelius or Augustus Caesar were. The dearth of knowledge becomes even worse as you move into the medieval ages and only begins to get somewhat better during the Renaissance.


To be fair, you can spend a lifetime learning history and still be learning when you die. It depends on how much detail you need to get into.

IIRC, Marcus Aurelius didn't come up in school, and that's fine - unless you're in the philosophy weeds, he's kind of an obscure historical figure. Most of the emperors don't come up beyond Julius Caesar and Augustus. I do remember that the Octavian/Antony naval battle came up. I only took 1 world history class in high school, as that's all that was required. My interests in terms of classes lay in other directions. I thought it odd at the time, but don't now that I know more about silly WASPy school curriculum politics, that we were required to take a year of European history as well. The American history requirement of course made sense.



Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 3:25:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Great story, Hans.

My school days were so long ago that I have a hard time remembering the quality of the history teachers. That's partly because I did so much reading and learning on my own that I was probably 95% self-taught (Kind of like Hans).


I really don't think primary and secondary education are set up to teach history. Because of the highly generalized nature of the education (they try to teach you just enough about everything that you can get through life), there isn't time to focus on. Most high schools are what, 7 hours of classes a day? For 180 days a year, for 4 years? That's only 5,040 hours. Now deduct the typical phys-ed requirement (say 2 hours a week = 576 hours) and you're down to 4,464 hours. And there will be at least 3 years of math courses, if not 4, but with 3 we're down to 3,884 hours... see how rapidly the available time diminishes? And then there's a foreign language requirement (typically 1-2 years), English language/literature (3-4 years), science (3 years), and so forth. Doesn't leave a lot of time for history classes.

I remember learning about the Marshall Plan in an English class because I did a report on it (I think the teacher told us to go find a nonfiction book about a historical thing), although honestly I found it so boring I don't remember much of it. I remember in my 9th grade world history class (the one that I mentioned earlier), during a class project on ancient history I used Legos to depict the "sea peoples" invasion of Egypt.

Anyway, my point is that to gain more than a passing knowledge of history, you have to get specialized education in it - whether that's doing your own projects because you're interested in history, or taking courses in college where more time is spent on the learning (and the courses cover shorter time periods as well). I learned more about European history in a college course I barely went to (and therefore barely passed) than I did in the AP European history course I took in high school and got a '4' on the test. And the college course only covered ~1400 (or whenever the Moors were kicked out of Spain) through the Peace of Westphalia in 1648.



Encircled -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 3:53:54 PM)

Its very hard over here to find anyone who thinks WWII beyond Spitfires, Dunkirk and D-Day.

If you are very lucky, they might have heard of the fall of Singapore.

I shudder to think what the knowledge will be like after the last veteran passes away



Lovejoy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 4:41:14 PM)

The other with how history is taught, is not so much what period gets covered, but is that it is, in my experience, more a repetition of facts than anything more practical. Tests were generally repeating various facts that had been said in class or the reading, while very little historical analysis was done. If history in high schools focused more on building analytical and writing skills, rather than simply trying to get students to remember a bunch of facts, it might be easier to demonstrate its practicality and use in the classroom.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 4:52:08 PM)

5/2/44

Fun House: Baybay falls. See map for details.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/AD95A75CFDA1438F9430BBACB10E070D.jpg[/image]



AcePylut -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 6:09:44 PM)

Ahh history, where we learned the German bombed Pearl Harbor, the sole reason the "Allies" won the war was because of the US, the Battle of the Bulge was named so because we only used reserve, overweight, reservists, we ham-fisted the UK into letting us use their island, nuked the peaceful and neutral Japan just because we are evil sob's, but somehow ended up with 2 Korean nations.


It would be nice if we were taught about the post-WW2 Chinese civil war, why Formosa is now Taiwan, but is considered China by Chinese, but we think it's an independent nation that makes all of our cheap clothes in sweat-shops.



DW -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 6:23:14 PM)

At my school in mid-Michigan (near Flint), we had a two semester class called "World History". Similarly to what others have related, it was really just an overview of western history.

There was a similar course on American history, a bit more detailed as it wasn't covering as much ground.

Both of those classes were required.

But, it also offered a bunch of one semester elective classes on important historical periods.

The period between 1760 and 1800 was covered in a class on the American Revolution, and another class covered the period between the Revolution and the Civil War.

The Civil War had a class dedicated it, as did each WWI and WWII.

The class on WWII was really interesting as Flint was a major player in arms manufacturing. The instructor was able to add a lot of local flavor to the class with pictures of the assembly line workers at Buick (mostly women) producing .50 cal machine guns or the tank destroyers being built at Fisher I.

There was a class that covered only the Roaring 20s and the Depression era. When we got to the part on the labor struggles and the Sit-Down Strike, a lot of local material was available for that too.

Another class covered the post WWII period, which mostly focused on the civil rights movements and the Cold War. That one rather straddled the line between history and current events, as we were still living both.

One could also take a class that covered British history (this one was actually two semesters), one for German history and another for the history of China.

These were by necessity less in depth, but still way more detailed than had been offered in the earlier mentioned World History.

Finally, there was a class that focused on the history of technology and covered the major scientific and inventive breakthroughs and how they were related.

And, while it's goal wasn't to teach history, the Literature department had a number of courses that focused on the important literary works of various countries in different eras, like medieval English literature or the literature of Renaissance Italy. Those classes provided a good deal of historical background so that one could understand the work that was being read.

While high school classes are introductory by their nature, looking back, I feel like I came out of high school with a pretty good grasp of who did what and when they did it.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 6:29:48 PM)

That sounds like a college curriculum today. A tip of the cap to the educators of Flint, back in the day.

I wonder what the city's curriculum looks like today?



Naskra -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 8:02:37 PM)

Schoolkids are kids. Kids don't fully grasp the adult world. History is the story of adults acting among other adults with adult aspirations and constraints.
So I'm not convinced of the value of trying to teach them something they're not suited to understand. Let them read the story of the past if and when they grow curious about it.



apbarog -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/15/2017 8:44:40 PM)

I'm not an avid poster, but I am a daily reader, and have been going all the way back to previous wars. Enjoying your writing and the war and the general discussions. Keep up the good work.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/16/2017 1:23:50 AM)

Like most education subjects, learning about history is something that you have to take charge of yourself if you want to know anything (with the possible exception of a certain Michigan high school). If I limited myself to what I was taught in school, I'd know as much as some buddies of mine who are, shall we say, "forward thinkers." There are also tangible benefits to knowing history, such as winning pitchers of beer at pub quizzes.

I received some good advice a while ago from a buddy who said he had his kids read Paul Johnson's "History of the American People" at the age of 14 or so and questioned them on it. I'll be doing the same with my daughter.

https://www.amazon.com/History-American-People-Paul-Johnson/dp/0060930349

The book is a corrective to some of the nonsense taught in schools, plus it fills in a lot of the blanks.

EDIT: Can you give us Sumatra's damage numbers, including major damage?

Cheers,
CC



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/16/2017 2:01:49 AM)

Current screenie of Sumatra. She was 28/71 on the day of damage. She's down to 28/65. All 65 is major.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/069E24F946B848B08EBCB76D711FF1ED.jpg[/image]



DW -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/16/2017 2:57:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That sounds like a college curriculum today. A tip of the cap to the educators of Flint, back in the day.

I wonder what the city's curriculum looks like today?


Actually, it was Flushing, one of Flint's satellite towns. But, all of the school districts in the area, including Flint, had similar curriculum.

All that General Motors money...

As to today, the local schools declined as GM closed factories and budgets became tighter.

While Michael Moore is an admitted propagandist, his movie "Roger and Me", which delved into the impact of factory closings on Flint, was damn close to the mark.




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