RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 3:51:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Is Mac around somewhere close by. His moment is coming very early now.[sm=happy0065.gif]

I look at the troops present at Manila, and scratch my head in disbelief. [sm=00000007.gif]

It is only x2 terrain, so not great to defend in, but certainly an important base that should be properly defended. If John's understanding of ground warfare is so poor, you should be running riot. Of course, that is not your plan...


An HQ of some type would sure help him.




MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 3:58:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Another air battle tactical note: In LBA battles, I have found that fighters flying escort are dead meat, always. I try to avoid combined missions, even for Death Star strikes against land targets. Better to sweep with fighters and let the 2EB and 4EB fly unescorted...even if that means that sometimes the fighters come in after the bombers (or don't fly at all, when the fighters happen to be operating from a separate field shut down by weather). Every now and then a mission contrary to this doctrine manages to assemble and go in, with results that refresh my resolve to prevent it from happening again, if possible.



Is that regardless of escort experience level? In fall of '42, as Allies I'am seeing how effective the Toryu is against P38/P40 as escorts with average experience.

Being tied to the bombers is tricky and may take a high level of escort ability to be successful.




Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 4:02:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Is Mac around somewhere close by. His moment is coming very early now.[sm=happy0065.gif]

I look at the troops present at Manila, and scratch my head in disbelief. [sm=00000007.gif]

It is only x2 terrain, so not great to defend in, but certainly an important base that should be properly defended. If John's understanding of ground warfare is so poor, you should be running riot. Of course, that is not your plan...


An HQ of some type would sure help him.


How about 3? The command HQ could probably be on Formosa or China.

Where is the Artillery, Tanks, AA, Engineers, Radar!!!!!! My god, why did he even try to defend Manila in the air? He put how many hundreds of Franks there with what-- 40 AV support at most & no AA and one Radar set that I see.

The mind boggles![X(][sm=scared0008.gif]




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 4:54:17 PM)

I may be able to win the race for Manila. The Allies seem to hold the advantage in terms of troops currently in the hex. I don't see any major Japanese units elsewhere on Luzon; SigInt doesn't show any inbound, though that may be inaccurate or about to change.

I think I may have a decided advantage in troop prep. I also have two divisions highly prepped for Manila within two hexes of the base (one is resting from disablements incurred in the Battle of Batangas, the other is holding Lucena, awaiting a chance to thrash an inbound Japanese mixed brigade before moving on to Manila). I have a third divisions with high prep back in the DEI, about to board ships for Luzon. And I have several HQ units highly prepped - XIV Corps will reach 100% tomorrow; Sixth Army is 85%.

I've wanted Manila to become a vortex, drawing in enemy reinforcements; but a Japanese collapse at Luzon is also acceptable, since it will probably throw John into further confusion and disarray, allowing the Allies to attack forward more effective while John tries to plug holes in the dike.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 4:56:59 PM)

With regard to fighters escorting bombers, I see similar results whatever the quality of the fighter and fighter pilot. Corsairs get chewed up; Hellcats too; Lightnings too. Thunderbolts perhaps not quite as bad, but it doesn't make sense to accept 1:1 Thunderbolt results on escort missions when they would score 2:1 or 3:1 by sweeping.

My experience with escort missions is that they are never worth it.




Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 4:59:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

With regard to fighters escorting bombers, I see similar results whatever the quality of the fighter and fighter pilot. Corsairs get chewed up; Hellcats too; Lightnings too. Thunderbolts perhaps not quite as bad, but it doesn't make sense to accept 1:1 Thunderbolt results on escort missions when they would score 2:1 or 3:1 by sweeping.

My experience with escort missions is that they are never worth it.


Have you never gotten the sweeping ahead message?





Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 5:23:44 PM)

Not that I know of. I've never heard of it.




Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 5:37:11 PM)

Often times as Japan, especially with Oscar IV the fighters escorting the bombers will "Sweep Ahead." They leave their escort duty, and sweep. The Animation has the fighters sweeping prior to the rest of the escorts and bombers arriving for the for standard escorted bombing mission. After sweeping ahead, the fighters will rejoin as escorts.

I believe it happens when you have a significant disparity between cruise speeds of the escorts and the bombers plus leader skills & HQa probably help too.

It is quite nice, and something I try hard to achieve. Allied forces have done it to Japan (me) on several occasions, but not it seems as much as I can get it to happen for Japan. But then again, I try to get it to happen.







Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 6:02:26 PM)

Battle of Manila details.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/FEB7B6F87D464764A16E5FB64EFBBBB5.jpg[/image]




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 6:09:01 PM)

As rare - and as coveted - as the triple play baseball, SigInt yields a gem today.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/54F0FB16106848F6BE6E6A1FD85406AE.jpg[/image]




paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 7:53:42 PM)

I am really having a hard time trying to interpret what John is doing.....perhaps he's trying to get astride your supply lines? But, in retrospect, you're bringing in everything via Australia, so Saipan doesn't make sense for that.

Coupled with his abortive attempt to counter-invade at Miri, well, I'm just at a loss. Unless John is attempting to replicate the decision making of the late-war Japanese High Command.




HansBolter -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 8:44:23 PM)

Everyone posting should try to remember that John will eventually get to read this AAR when the game is finished.
I would recommend showing a bit of deference when it comes to criticizing his decision making and game play.
Better not to foster hard feelings later.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 10:19:38 PM)

6/17/44

The map speaks to things.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/3C02165878DA4783859C4C51AE741CED.jpg[/image]




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/3/2017 10:29:01 PM)

Most of the units at Manila are in good shape, with fatigue and disruption in the 20s or teens. But 9th Aus. Div. is 30/38. That's too high to risk, so I'll rest the army a day.




Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 1:03:29 AM)

I don't know why he'd both with Saipan, either. For that matter, I don't know why CR would bother with Saipan. There's no point if the Allies are capturing Luzon already. Why face that murderous coastal fort if you don't have to?




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 1:24:02 AM)

I had troops prepped for Eniwetok and Marcus for many, many months. Someday I will hit Marcus, though I diverted those troops to other uses six weeks ago. I permanently scrubbed Eniwetok awhile back. I don't envision any further action against the balance of the Marshalls, the Carolines, or the Marianas. I will probably attend to high-value targets in some areas (Rabaul, for instance) if points become an issue later in the game.




BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 7:49:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morejeffs

That are a lot of dead Franks.....

In the city (Manila) do you get a bonus for having armor (when he does not)?

This question seems to have been overlooked so I will take a stab at answering it.

There is no "bonus" for armor, just calculations based on the anti-armor firepower of the Japanese vs. the modeled thickness of the Allied armour and the skill of the leaders involved (to get hits or avoid them).
The Japanese have few anti-tank weapons in the early game (in stock - not sure about John's scenario that give the IJ forces more goodies) but by 1944 their infantry should have hand held PIAT type a/t weapons, and they should have more "rapid fire gun" (a/t) units available. So the Allied tanks won't have a cakewalk in any terrain, and may suffer badly attacking in a city with good forts. However, if a LOT of allied tanks are available a shock attack can sometimes shatter the enemy resistance and rout their forces. Best plan is to grind them down first and shock attack when they appear to be close to cracking.




GetAssista -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 10:43:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
The Japanese have few anti-tank weapons in the early game (in stock - not sure about John's scenario that give the IJ forces more goodies) but by 1944 their infantry should have hand held PIAT type a/t weapons, and they should have more "rapid fire gun" (a/t) units available.

In stock IJA infantry gets anti-armor rating at 5 and that's it, cavalry at 15, engineers at 25. Nothing to write home about as all Allies routinely have 35-75 rating by that time. Japanese IDs also do not have their TOEs changed much in terms of anti-tanking.
John's squad modifications if any can be checked in game through the database. But I bet he did not make any cause he is a sea/air war guy, not a land war guy

EDit: corrected for non-ironman stock. In the latter Andy gave 25 anti-armor to Jap infantry in 43




ny59giants -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 11:43:51 AM)

In this version of RA and in later versions, ONLY the IJN has been changed. So when posters here talk about what John (and me to a smaller extent) did in this mod, remember just that.




jwolf -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 1:27:12 PM)

From the map annotations: "But it looks like [John] is not yet ready to commit his carriers." I can understand his apparent reluctance at going against a presumably superior foe, but the relative balance of strategic power is not likely to improve for the Japanese at this point. And if Luzon is not the hill to die for, then what is?




DW -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 1:58:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

From the map annotations: "But it looks like [John] is not yet ready to commit his carriers." I can understand his apparent reluctance at going against a presumably superior foe, but the relative balance of strategic power is not likely to improve for the Japanese at this point. And if Luzon is not the hill to die for, then what is?


I think John knows he needs an engagement where he achieves a wildly disproportionate victory to alter the strategic situation, and he's willing to give up important territory in the hope that an opportunity for such an engagement presents itself.

I think John is pursuing a forlorn hope as Canoe is too good of a player to make the sort of mistake that he would be required to make for such an opportunity to present itself, but I don't think it's an irrational strategy.

The only other option is to throw away his only hope for victory in a likely useless attack.





paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 3:45:11 PM)

I don't mean to be overly harsh.....John's got to be under a lot of self-induced pressure. He doesn't like to lose & now he's having to face the music of past choices.

It'll be interesting to see how the end-game plays out here.




SqzMyLemon -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 4:21:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

With regard to fighters escorting bombers, I see similar results whatever the quality of the fighter and fighter pilot. Corsairs get chewed up; Hellcats too; Lightnings too. Thunderbolts perhaps not quite as bad, but it doesn't make sense to accept 1:1 Thunderbolt results on escort missions when they would score 2:1 or 3:1 by sweeping.


Do you sweep with individual squadrons CR, or try to assign LRCAP to support your sweeps? Are you facing subpar resistance in terms of radar and layered CAP. I can only imagine getting 2:1 or 3:1 with P-47 sweeps.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 6:04:10 PM)

Joseph, I'm not positive I understand your question, but I'll answer as best I can.

I do not mix LCRCAP with sweep missions intentionally, but rarely I might end up with that combination (usually after I've set LRCAP over ground troops and a few days later decide to sweep the hex).

I don't worry about maximizing sweep numbers. Usually my fighter squadrons go in individually or broken up or somewhat combined. I might have 25 Thunderbolts followed by 18 Corsairs followed by 3 Thunderbolts followed by 6 Lightnings, etc.

You'd think that 25 Thunderbolts going up against 100 Franks and 20 Georges would be a bad equation, but it doesn't work that way. Those Thunderbolts tend to hold there own, wearying the defenders and performing decently - usually at least 1:1. Then the later arriving squadrons or elements feast on the tuckered-out enemy fighters, scoring much higher kill ratios.

I keep my Spitfires low - usually anywhere from 10k to 15k, with 12k the norm; Thunderbolts usually take the middle ranges - from 15k to 25k. Lightnings and Corsairs usually (but not always) fly higher, from perhaps 20k to 30k. I seldom have sweeping fighters set higher than 30k.

I may be facing subpar resistance, but I can't say for certain since I don't ask John and he doesn't tell me. I suspect that the biggest factor is pilot quality - I know mine has been good since late 1942, almost always outperforming enemy pilots in good planes. Airfield size might be a factor - I'm almost always flying from big fields with lots of aviation support; I suspect, but I'm not positive, that John may often have supply or aviation support issues.

I'm also willing to allow my 4EB to absorb losses - sometimes heavy losses. I imagine the JFBs reading John's AAR revel in the number of kills he gets. From a pure ratio standpoint it may look that way, but usually there are many layers to the strategy. For example, once I used 4EB daily for about eight months to keep Port Moresby suppressed. That helped turn the area into a vortex that drew John's rapt attention far, far longer than it should have. We know that he kept KB posted in the Solomon Sea while the Allies were (relatively speaking) unopposed in the DEI. I lost a lot of 4EB in that campaign, but I am persuaded that the net results were decisively favorable to the Allies. The number of 4EB I lost were a truth, but far from the whole truth.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 6:36:58 PM)

6/18/44

The Great Race: Mini Death Star and The Herd are midway through the Gulf of Carpentaria. KB is at Saipan and Mini KB at Soerabaja. I think KB is out of position to try for a block at this point, but I'll know for certain tomorrow. Once Mini Death Star nears the big Allied airfields in the DEI (Boela and Sorong) it should be relatively safe.

So what are Mini KB and KB doing at this point? Four days ago, the former is making for Miri and the latter appears to be making for the South China Sea. Now they've headed in the opposite direction. Mini KB is not strong enough to take on Mini Death Star. John got an eyeful of high detection today, so he may be doing all these calculations.

Major on-site reinforcements have finished loading at Boela and Sorong, commence loading tonight at Manokwari, and begin loading at Morotai the day after tomorrow. Three divisions plus some HQ and support. One div. is bound for Luzon, two for Mindanao.

See map.

Fun House: Aussie shock attack at Miri just barely fails to take the base (the base fell during the Sync Bug version of the turn). The Aussies will have to rest for at least two or three days. John is bringing in a battalion, either by air or fast transport. He may well be able to stabilize the situation. It'll only be temporary, though. Once Death Star and Mini Death Star merge, I can attend to Miri.

I thought I stood down the army at Manila, but failed somehow to give comprehensive orders. At least a few infantry units attacked. These guys will need a few days rest prior to the next attack. 6th Div., in particular, is beat up.

I'll post a separate map of this area later.

Burma: IJA unit on the Tavoy road evaporates. The army advancing on Rahaeng has made 31 miles - perhaps three more days to go.

I'll post a separate Burma map later.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/45643BAD60F945F8916136850EFE62E5.jpg[/image]




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 6:44:21 PM)

It looks like KB may have 650 or so aircraft...and Mini KB about 300. If those numbers are accurate, John made a major mistake in separating the two forces and keeping them separated for so long. This would explain why he hasn't employed KB against Death Star, even after his subs inflicted major damage on two CVs and sank a CVE.

KB and Mini KB united would have 1,000 aircraft (or more if the totals show on the map are incomplete). I think Death Star currently has roughly 1500 aircraft. John undoubtedly hoped to combine his LBA into an attack, but the chances have been few...and his carriers were out of position (I think).

Mini Death Star has 500+ aircraft, so merging with Death Star will create a carrier force that can take on KB nearly any place on the map. I'll need to watch out for the big airfields on Formosa...but areas without big airfields (Borneo is one such place, the Vietnamese coast is another) are relatively free from major LBA threats.




Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 6:46:24 PM)

Quite the intelligence coup there CR, someone needs a raise![sm=happy0065.gif]




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 6:48:22 PM)

Yes, it was (you can see the SigInt report about Shokaku near the top of this page). If I was relying solely on sub detection levels to pinpoint KB's likely location, the pucker factor would be pretty high as Mini Death Star moves west. But with KB pinpointed, no pucker (yet, anyhow).




SqzMyLemon -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 6:52:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Joseph, I'm not positive I understand your question, but I'll answer as best I can.

I do not mix LCRCAP with sweep missions intentionally, but rarely I might end up with that combination (usually after I've set LRCAP over ground troops and a few days later decide to sweep the hex).

I don't worry about maximizing sweep numbers. Usually my fighter squadrons go in individually or broken up or somewhat combined. I might have 25 Thunderbolts followed by 18 Corsairs followed by 3 Thunderbolts followed by 6 Lightnings, etc.

You'd think that 25 Thunderbolts going up against 100 Franks and 20 Georges would be a bad equation, but it doesn't work that way. Those Thunderbolts tend to hold there own, wearying the defenders and performing decently - usually at least 1:1. Then the later arriving squadrons or elements feast on the tuckered-out enemy fighters, scoring much higher kill ratios.

I keep my Spitfires low - usually anywhere from 10k to 15k, with 12k the norm; Thunderbolts usually take the middle ranges - from 15k to 25k. Lightnings and Corsairs usually (but not always) fly higher, from perhaps 20k to 30k. I seldom have sweeping fighters set higher than 30k.

I may be facing subpar resistance, but I can't say for certain since I don't ask John and he doesn't tell me. I suspect that the biggest factor is pilot quality - I know mine has been good since late 1942, almost always outperforming enemy pilots in good planes. Airfield size might be a factor - I'm almost always flying from big fields with lots of aviation support; I suspect, but I'm not positive, that John may often have supply or aviation support issues.

I'm also willing to allow my 4EB to absorb losses - sometimes heavy losses. I imagine the JFBs reading John's AAR revel in the number of kills he gets. From a pure ratio standpoint it may look that way, but usually there are many layers to the strategy. For example, once I used 4EB daily for about eight months to keep Port Moresby suppressed. That helped turn the area into a vortex that drew John's rapt attention far, far longer than it should have. We know that he kept KB posted in the Solomon Sea while the Allies were (relatively speaking) unopposed in the DEI. I lost a lot of 4EB in that campaign, but I am persuaded that the net results were decisively favorable to the Allies. The number of 4EB I lost were a truth, but far from the whole truth.


Thanks CR. You're response was just what I was hoping for. My sweeps just don't perform as well as yours or many other AARs, which is the source of much of my frustration. When I send individual sweeps, they get crushed. If I send a squadron of P-47s with 23 aircraft for example, I come back with 9. I get entire squadrons almost wiped out after sweeping. I really think it comes down to my opponent, he knows the air model inside and out. I do not get results like anyone else on the forum having to face low CAP. It's a game winner in my opinion, and right now I have no counter to it. Nothing I do against it gets better results than 1:1. In my game, your example of 25 P-47's going up against 100 Franks and 20 Georges results in wiped out P-47 squadrons. Anyway, thanks for the post...I just wish I was experiencing the success others seem to have with the best Allied planes and pilots. Mine just get slaughtered. Using my 4Es is no better...I lose 50% of my bombers every raid against a strong CAP, in three attacks I'd be out of bombers. I wish I knew the answer, but I don't so I will continue to lose the air war.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (4/4/2017 9:35:26 PM)

6/18/44

The situation in Indochina.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/7F69550341934E26A9C02920EB208248.jpg[/image]




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