RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/31/2017 3:43:53 PM)
I was speaking of "closing the gap" between Changsha and Hangchow so that John doesn't have an open road of egress. It'll take longer to reduce major redoubts - Hangchow and Changsha should fall into that category.

jwolf -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/31/2017 5:36:59 PM)
I admit I'm still not seeing the 10 day timeline in China. But I'm still a rookie and I will be glad to be proven wrong. Should be fun to watch in any case.

Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/31/2017 7:32:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwolf quote: ... Chinese army will move on Changsha and attempt to link up with the western Allies somewhere between Changsha and Hangchow, thus completing a great encirclement. This will take another ten days or so. Ten days seems wildly optimistic. I don't think you could do that even without any Japanese army at all. With light fighting, maybe 3 weeks. Longer if there is stiff resistance at a key base such as Changsha or Nanchang/Kiukiang. That's my take, anyway. But I certainly agree that this theater is going really well for you. It's great to see the Chinese army successfully at work (though they have had some severe losses in failed attacks, too). BTW I really like your maps with the color coded annotations. Great work. Terrain at these bases is all heavily in favor of the Allies - or at least their bombers. They can cause a massive reduction in combat power for the Japanese in a single turn.

Mike McCreery -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/31/2017 8:02:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel I was speaking of "closing the gap" between Changsha and Hangchow so that John doesn't have an open road of egress. It'll take longer to reduce major redoubts - Hangchow and Changsha should fall into that category. It's a tough crowd ;] Probably why more people do not write AAR's!!

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/31/2017 8:14:23 PM)
11/15/44 Fancy Pants: China is a boiling mass of troops. In general, the Japanese army is battered and in retreat. There are redoubts here and there. And strong units may be hidden in the mix of battered units. John can wage an effective guerilla warfare campaign, interdicting roads, etc. But for the most part the Allied army is moving in good order to seal the pocket - closing the land routes to the east. The defeat of 2nd Tank Division today, west of Hangchow, was a big step in that direction. But this pocket isn't truly a pocket, since Japan still has ports like Hong Kong, Canton, and Pakhoi. The situation is fluid and somewhat confusing. It isn't possible for me to snap my fingers or twitch my nose and address everything instantly. So I chose the general strategy of moving north and east, knowing that the air force and follow up Chinese units can address the pocket. [image]local://upfiles/8143/19BD4773B36E414097AD238EFEF154D2.jpg[/image]

BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/31/2017 8:32:08 PM)
The IJA 35th Division isn't in clear terrain - it's in rough (+2) terrain. Your bombers won't be nearly as effective and you'll need clear superiority in AV. But if you can wait a while that unit is a long way from sources of supply and you are cutting all the connections .... [:)]

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/31/2017 8:40:54 PM)
I meant "in the clear" as out from a base, surrounded by hostile troops with no access to friendly LRCAP. I'm sorry for not making myself more clear. I'm posting so often that the temptation to try to inject some brevity can leave folks uncertain about what I mean.

Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/31/2017 9:00:58 PM)
Really well done in China.[&o] Watch the no valid retreat path...for units like the 35th. It will stubbornly not retreat and potentially really slow you down for 2 weeks or so...if you let it.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/1/2017 1:31:58 PM)
Yeah, I'm not working the "surround and destroy" angle anywhere in China, to this point. Everywhere, the name of the game is to move east and to batter anything material that stands in the way, to prevent it from becoming a nuisance behind-the-lines guerilla menace. 35th Div. is on a good road and is strong. I didn't even know it was there until the two armored units did a probing deliberate attack. Fortuitously, in this case, two fresh US Army divisions will reach this hex in a day or two. In the meantime, I think every divebomber and 2EB in the vicinity targets this hex tomorrow. The goal is to battered this divisions and get it off the road.

HansBolter -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/1/2017 1:54:49 PM)
Kuikang is a bear. Swamp terrain with very low stacking. I've had a stack of 8 IJA units surrounded there for over 18 months in my current game. Not worth it to me to try to pry them out.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/1/2017 6:59:23 PM)
11/16/44 Self-Destruction: You know that Japanese division sitting astride the main road in rough terrain that I was going to have to deal with? John ordered a shock attack in hopes that his troops would face just the two small armored units. But two US Army divisions arrived at just that moment. This is how a fresh and strong enemy division becomes battered: Ground combat at 84,59 (near Foochow) Japanese Shock attack Attacking force 12082 troops, 94 guns, 32 vehicles, Assault Value = 437 Defending force 23231 troops, 417 guns, 662 vehicles, Assault Value = 738 Japanese adjusted assault: 10 Allied adjusted defense: 1211 Japanese assault odds: 1 to 121 Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), op mode(-) Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), leaders(-), disruption(-) Japanese ground losses: 4202 casualties reported Squads: 27 destroyed, 378 disabled Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 23 disabled Engineers: 2 destroyed, 33 disabled Guns lost 8 (1 destroyed, 7 disabled) Vehicles lost 12 (1 destroyed, 11 disabled) Assaulting units: 35th Division Defending units: 44th Tank Battalion 706th Tank Battalion 33rd Infantry Division 7th Infantry Division The Allied units will probably shock attack tomorrow.

Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/1/2017 7:22:40 PM)
Obviously there was a difference in opinion in the leadership ranks of the 35th Division. The double leadership effect strikes again.[:)]

DRF99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/1/2017 7:36:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel Japanese Shock attack Attacking force 12082 troops, 94 guns, 32 vehicles, Assault Value = 437 Defending force 23231 troops, 417 guns, 662 vehicles, Assault Value = 738 Japanese adjusted assault: 10 Allied adjusted defense: 1211 Japanese assault odds: 1 to 121 A real, live banzai charge! With real life results.

BillBrown -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/1/2017 9:07:14 PM)
Is OOPs appropriate here?

witpqs -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/1/2017 9:27:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel 11/16/44 Self-Destruction: You know that Japanese division sitting astride the main road in rough terrain that I was going to have to deal with? John ordered a shock attack in hopes that his troops would face just the two small armored units. But two US Army divisions arrived at just that moment. This is how a fresh and strong enemy division becomes battered: Ground combat at 84,59 (near Foochow) Japanese Shock attack Attacking force 12082 troops, 94 guns, 32 vehicles, Assault Value = 437 Defending force 23231 troops, 417 guns, 662 vehicles, Assault Value = 738 Japanese adjusted assault: 10 Allied adjusted defense: 1211 Japanese assault odds: 1 to 121 Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), op mode(-) Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), leaders(-), disruption(-) Japanese ground losses: 4202 casualties reported Squads: 27 destroyed, 378 disabled Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 23 disabled Engineers: 2 destroyed, 33 disabled Guns lost 8 (1 destroyed, 7 disabled) Vehicles lost 12 (1 destroyed, 11 disabled) Assaulting units: 35th Division Defending units: 44th Tank Battalion 706th Tank Battalion 33rd Infantry Division 7th Infantry Division The Allied units will probably shock attack tomorrow. That will be ugly. [&:]

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/1/2017 9:38:24 PM)
There's a lot behind that shock attack - the give and take of the game, the taking of risks, the rewards or penalties, the ebb and flow. Here he took a calculated risk that he probably couldn't afford to take and it stung him. In recent days, John has downed a fair bit of Allied dive bombers, his fighters and/or weather have blunted my strategic bombing, and today a beat up IJA 2nd Div. shock attacked a destroyed a US Army tank battalion. All of those were good things for him. Yesterday, my two "naked" armored units found themselves in the same hex with 35th Division. He probably knew other Allied units were inbound for the adjacent hex, but he decided to gamble that they wouldn't arrive the very next turn. He lost the gamble and trashed his division. With that many disablements, the Allied shock attack tomorrow should really pulverize 35th Div. If you go way back through the game, you'll find many instances in which John attacked - deliberate sometimes, shock other times - when he shouldn't have. He's done it recently in coastal China; he did it early in China and Singapore. John should be using his units to distract or slow the Allied advance but here he neutered a strong unit that was in a great position to serve as a roadblock.

witpqs -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/1/2017 9:50:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel There's a lot behind that shock attack - the give and take of the game, the taking of risks, the rewards or penalties, the ebb and flow. Here he took a calculated risk that he probably couldn't afford to take and it stung him. In recent days, John has downed a fair bit of Allied dive bombers, his fighters and/or weather have blunted my strategic bombing, and today a beat up IJA 2nd Div. shock attacked a destroyed a US Army tank battalion. All of those were good things for him. Yesterday, my two "naked" armored units found themselves in the same hex with 35th Division. He probably knew other Allied units were inbound for the adjacent hex, but he decided to gamble that they wouldn't arrive the very next turn. He lost the gamble and trashed his division. With that many disablements, the Allied shock attack tomorrow should really pulverize 35th Div. If you go way back through the game, you'll find many instances in which John attacked - deliberate sometimes, shock other times - when he shouldn't have. He's done it recently in coastal China; he did it early in China and Singapore. John should be using his units to distract or slow the Allied advance but here he neutered a strong unit that was in a great position to serve as a roadblock. Of course, and that goes for us all. When going back over a long PBM the analysis gets hard to figure because every "if I had done this or that better" must be accompanied by "but what if my opponent had not made his mistakes there". In a case like this if you win the gamble and rout the two armored units with a day to spare they might be trashed. If you don't attack then maybe your 35th Div can hold for a while but still gets trashed.

Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/1/2017 9:58:52 PM)
It was an incredibly bold attack...the 35th is B Field Division...no guns bigger than 75 mm. Not a very good division, but one that has been around for the entire war. It is almost impossible to fight Yankee tanks, if they don't want to, as they can normally exit a hex in less than one day on a main road. Even had the tanks stayed, I suspect the result would merely have been disabled tanks with almost nothing destroyed.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 12:10:16 AM)
11/16/44 Fancy Pants: Mostly a very good day on the ground in China but mostly a disappointing day in the air over Japan. [image]local://upfiles/8143/AD2216C0FF27407EA6B712E437BDA7B4.jpg[/image]

JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 2:35:29 PM)
So you know he is shipping troops in to Hong Kong. At least 1 division, probably more. Likely from the DEI or perhaps Singapore. You know where the bulk of his carriers are. It's a 1 or 2 day dash for a fast task force. Any thoughts to taking a swing at some fat troop transports?

paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 2:49:44 PM)
He destroyed a division on the off chance that he could damage a couple of battalions - that's not a fair trade in any game.....

Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 3:44:26 PM)
I am not sure if John is this deceitful, but you can use waypoints and select Hong Kong as your final destination, and not go anywhere near there.

witpqs -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 4:57:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: paullus99 He destroyed a division on the off chance that he could damage a couple of battalions - that's not a fair trade in any game..... I'm thinking about the comparison of what he might get for losing the division one way versus what he might get for losing the division the other way, given that he will lose the division either way.

JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 5:20:42 PM)
quote: I am not sure if John is this deceitful, but you can use waypoints and select Hong Kong as your final destination, and not go anywhere near there. No knock on John but that does not seem his style. More likely CR is not correct in thinking that he will defend at Canton/Hong Kong, but that the next war winning offensive will originate from there. One wonders if old intelligence shows where this division was. I expect John is scarping around that map looking for good nits and I bet there are a few in the DEI that might be better used elsewhere

Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 5:40:28 PM)
Looks like China is showing some cracks.

BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 5:57:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin Looks like China is showing some cracks. Must be that bull you sold to Dan! He turned it loose at Foochow and now look what happened!

Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 6:00:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: paullus99 He destroyed a division on the off chance that he could damage a couple of battalions - that's not a fair trade in any game..... I'm thinking about the comparison of what he might get for losing the division one way versus what he might get for losing the division the other way, given that he will lose the division either way. quote: He destroyed a division on the off chance that he could damage a couple of battali Normally, Japan is playing for time now. Time for AA and ART up to create some roadblocks, time to get some more ground troops as soon the spigots open up wide for Japan, time and diversion to keep Allies from strategic bombing Honshu, time for new planes to arrive, etc., etc. Even a few days purchased by the 35th would have been helpful to Japan.

Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 6:34:11 PM)
John is good at fighting but not in absorbing. He tried to fight with the 35th.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/2/2017 7:07:35 PM)
That puts it well. John likes to strike and hard. Especially early in the game this is usually a very effective strategy. He'll strike deep and with mighty force. He can unhinge an Allied player, especially a newb. But he also flails ineffectively or counterproductively later in the game. The use of 35th Div., as Lowpe and Missus Zeppelin points out, is a good example. There he had a big unit, relatively fresh in a blocking position on a key road in good defensive terrain. It might have held back my two divisions for days or longer. Instead it should evaporate tomorrow. And a week or so back, when he sent several divisions into clear coastal hexes subject to four-engine bombing: yikes! I guess the thought was "use them or lose them," but Lowpe would have thought, "Linger, loiter, wait until the bulk of the Allied army passes, and then come in behind them and disrupt LOCs, etc. It's different strategies for different folks, but John's strongest point is his aggressiveness early in the game, especially against an opponent he can rattle.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/3/2017 10:36:48 PM)
11/17/44 Fancy Pants: Another (mostly) good day in China. John: Two turns back he was working a small boast about knocking down Allied dive bombers; then his missed a day of turns and wrote that part of the reason was he was just not up to absorbing yet another beating. I wrote back, telling him that he's really done a fine job bearing up for so long, hoping to encourage him that he still had a role to play in this endgame - perhaps a powerful role. But there's little doubt auto vic will be merciful to John at this point. He's working hard on a new mod and should relish starting a new and fresh game. I doubt we'll play again but I'll enjoy following his next game. [image]local://upfiles/8143/4BCE5F1DB5C74678963A755C9C6F9DB7.jpg[/image]

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