RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 4:03:30 AM)
Supply in China is an interesting phenomena. Despite heavy land and air combat by units on the Coastal Front, supply looks flush. I've dropped a decent amount at Foochow but it never seems to diminish. I suspect that supply is filtering through from Interior China (and ultimately from the Burma Road). I will monitor this carefully, because if true that means most of the supply inbound from the DEI can be used for strategic bombing from Formosa - which means, in turn, I have enough supply in theater now to last the rest of the game. We'll see.

BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 4:19:08 AM)
When you take Kiukiang, if you try to march from there up to Wuchang you can get messed up by the roads. The good road goes up to the hex east of Wuchang before turning west, but if you set your units at Kiukiang to march up to Wuchang they will march 2 hexes and then try to go through the woods to get to Wuchang. Obviously, not the fastest route. So route the troops at Kiukiang to the hex east of Wuchang and then give them the orders to march west to the city. Just one of those annoying things that could slow down your movement if you don't know about it.

Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 12:18:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: paullus99 Well, damn. He'll pack his airfields now, so the opportunity to probably gone. Damn, damn, damn. Why? It is not evident from the screen picture that the Allies were going to attack. Japan has consistently exposed their shipping for destruction...but I wouldn't get too distressed, as I suppose there wasn't much there to begin with and the opportunity will surely present itself again. I have no clue what is there, but really....carriers without planes. How in the world does that sound like John?

Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 12:26:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel 11/20/44 An IJA Division's Banzai Charge: See diagram. [image]local://upfiles/8143/7FC7830B33F5426BA41EFFD19B9D127F.jpg[/image] Ok, that is a Kwantung Army restricted unit in most games. I have no clue what your HR rules are concerning restricted troops moving into China, or if this mod changes the headquarters, etc. It starts the game I believe with 25 experience and morale with horrible leader that costs an arm and leg of PP to change out. But, if there is no restriction for moving troops from Manchuko to China, how in the world did you save China? I guess just no interest. The 4th is a garrison division with a handful of 81mm mortars and 75 mm pop guns. No way in the world should it be shock attacking tanks on its own. At best it might cause a retreat and some disablements but at a pretty stiff cost in losses to themselves.

Panther Bait -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 12:49:40 PM)
If a Kwangtung Army division suicides, can it be bought back in the home islands or back in Manchukuo?

JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 12:57:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel Supply in China is an interesting phenomena. Despite heavy land and air combat by units on the Coastal Front, supply looks flush. I've dropped a decent amount at Foochow but it never seems to diminish. I suspect that supply is filtering through from Interior China (and ultimately from the Burma Road). I will monitor this carefully, because if true that means most of the supply inbound from the DEI can be used for strategic bombing from Formosa - which means, in turn, I have enough supply in theater now to last the rest of the game. We'll see. Yup, Burma road supply is like a long term investment. Takes a long time to flow, more time to fill out the Chinese Army, but now you can live on the interest in your investment. Keep pumping supply through Rangoon and maybe push a couple of good base forces and engineers into interior China. A good airfield or two will make big trouble. Living large now CR.

GetAssista -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 12:57:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panther Bait If a Kwangtung Army division suicides, can it be bought back in the home islands or back in Manchukuo? Revived Japanese LCUs arrive only in Tokyo (and Osaka if Tokyo is captured). But permanently restricted LCUs usually cannot be revived at all

Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 1:06:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GetAssista quote: ORIGINAL: Panther Bait If a Kwangtung Army division suicides, can it be bought back in the home islands or back in Manchukuo? Revived Japanese LCUs arrive only in Tokyo (and Osaka if Tokyo is captured). But permanently restricted LCUs usually cannot be revived at all Why would you want to? Supplies are better spent somewhere, anywhere else. That unit is for a fixed defensive position with level 5 forts, supporting units and 100 prep, or broken down into 1/3rds for garrison duty.

Lecivius -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 1:21:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe That unit is for a fixed defensive position with level 5 forts, supporting units and 100 prep, or broken down into 1/3rds for garrison duty. Well, it was. It's now a school crossing guard unit [:D]

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 1:35:07 PM)
Is that unit permanent restricted to Manchuria? We do have the usual restrictions about paying PP to buy out restricted units moving across national border. You may recall my oversights when I had restricted Chinese units move into northern Indochina (I then moved them back out) and restricted Indian units moving deeply into Burma (had to move them back to Shwebo per our specific rule.

Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 2:05:47 PM)
Yes, its permanently restricted and as Lowpe said a very poor unit even by Japanese standards.

GetAssista -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 2:25:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel Is that unit permanent restricted to Manchuria? In current stock 4th Manchukuo Distr Div is permanently restricted to Kwantung Army[R] and starts the game in Harbin. Maybe this was different at the start of your game, because it was so long ago

Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 2:37:08 PM)
What is the point of even bringing it up? It is not like it is malicious, as it is probably about the worst unit John could pull out of Manchuko. Of bigger concern would be all the big beautiful Artillery that starts in Manchuko, and quite frankly I haven't seen much artillery in this game and if John skirted the HR in moving that stuff out in 1941-42 well it is way too late to shut that barn door.[;)] To be honest, better not to know than potentially poison a game you have put so much into. It was a 50 victory point gift, leave it at that...would be my recommendation.

HansBolter -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/7/2017 5:04:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel Supply in China is an interesting phenomena. Despite heavy land and air combat by units on the Coastal Front, supply looks flush. I've dropped a decent amount at Foochow but it never seems to diminish. I suspect that supply is filtering through from Interior China (and ultimately from the Burma Road). I will monitor this carefully, because if true that means most of the supply inbound from the DEI can be used for strategic bombing from Formosa - which means, in turn, I have enough supply in theater now to last the rest of the game. We'll see. A while back I did a detailed study tracking supply at various points along the Burma road and into China and posted it in one of Jockemeistr's AARs. Learning what I did from that study made me the advocate I am for shipping huge quantities of supply into Rangoon. We failed historically to turn China into a viable platform for strategic bombing because our air bases were not proximate to Japan, we had to fly supply over the hump and the IJA was still dominant on the ground. In this game, it is definitely possible for a player to turn it into a viable strat bombing platform. 500k to 1m into Rangoon per month and China is flush three months later.

Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/8/2017 3:55:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel Supply in China is an interesting phenomena. Despite heavy land and air combat by units on the Coastal Front, supply looks flush. I've dropped a decent amount at Foochow but it never seems to diminish. I suspect that supply is filtering through from Interior China (and ultimately from the Burma Road). I will monitor this carefully, because if true that means most of the supply inbound from the DEI can be used for strategic bombing from Formosa - which means, in turn, I have enough supply in theater now to last the rest of the game. We'll see. A while back I did a detailed study tracking supply at various points along the Burma road and into China and posted it in one of Jockemeistr's AARs. Learning what I did from that study made me the advocate I am for shipping huge quantities of supply into Rangoon. We failed historically to turn China into a viable platform for strategic bombing because our air bases were not proximate to Japan, we had to fly supply over the hump and the IJA was still dominant on the ground. In this game, it is definitely possible for a player to turn it into a viable strat bombing platform. 500k to 1m into Rangoon per month and China is flush three months later. This is my experience also. All those virtual trucks...

Crackaces -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/8/2017 5:37:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel Supply in China is an interesting phenomena. Despite heavy land and air combat by units on the Coastal Front, supply looks flush. I've dropped a decent amount at Foochow but it never seems to diminish. I suspect that supply is filtering through from Interior China (and ultimately from the Burma Road). I will monitor this carefully, because if true that means most of the supply inbound from the DEI can be used for strategic bombing from Formosa - which means, in turn, I have enough supply in theater now to last the rest of the game. We'll see. A while back I did a detailed study tracking supply at various points along the Burma road and into China and posted it in one of Jockemeistr's AARs. Learning what I did from that study made me the advocate I am for shipping huge quantities of supply into Rangoon. We failed historically to turn China into a viable platform for strategic bombing because our air bases were not proximate to Japan, we had to fly supply over the hump and the IJA was still dominant on the ground. In this game, it is definitely possible for a player to turn it into a viable strat bombing platform. 500k to 1m into Rangoon per month and China is flush three months later. Many years ago I posted an AAR that supports your findings. In addition, I found just enough supply to flow fairly quickly. Not enough to initially support offensive operations but enough to turn red ! Into just enough supply. At about 3 months into my China offense multiple attacks supported Through the Burma road.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/9/2017 2:10:14 AM)
11/21/44 Fancy Pants: Haruna takes a stab at Death Star and misses; Allies victorious in three important battles in China; Death Star begins the vital move to Manila and the DEI; and Ningpo and Formosa hunker down for the storm likely to take place while DS is away. The two most interesting questions now: (1) how long will it take John to get a handle on what's going on and orchestrate a big assault on Ningpo? I'm guessing 4 to 7 days. All Allied forces are expendable in this effort, though I do hope any losses are equaled or exceeded by enemy losses. The only thing that must not happen is for John to take Ningpo. Once DS returns in 10-14 days, John's window closes. (2) John has a handle on what's going on - the merchantmen in the DEI and DS moving that way; will he craft an ambush or attack? I think he'll concentrate on Ningpo, but I'm aware of other possibilities. [image]local://upfiles/8143/73D82FED8E5A4E30874E076CF5CE3F71.jpg[/image]

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/10/2017 12:03:32 PM)
11/22/44 Naval Battle of Ningpo: John commits his BBs in a strike against the Allied navy protecting Ningpo. The result is a long, tough battle. The Japanese TF of four BBs and 11 low-value DDs faces off against three Allied TFs that include two BBs, two CAs, three CLs, and some good DDs. The opening round goes to the Japanese, which sink BB West Virginia. Thereafter, the Allied navy just punches the staggering enemy TF until it's pretty much in tatters. [image]local://upfiles/8143/A05CD3FF10F1432C959045F2C9947370.jpg[/image]

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/10/2017 12:15:39 PM)
11/22/44 Naval Battle of Ningpo: Allied Losses: BB West Virginia and one DD. CA Minneapolis took heavy damage (70 FLT). BB Valiant and CA Sussex take moderate damage (low end). Several DDs are beat up enough to need yard time. Japanese Losses: Two BBs (Haruna, Hie) reported with Heavy Fires, Heavy Damage; one (Kirishima) with Fires, Heavy Damage; one (Kongo) with Fires; seven DDS confirmed sunk; the remaining four DDs probably heavily damaged. Analysis: The Allies accomplished the two things they had to accomplish: stood toe to toe with the enemy, protecting Ningpo against bombardment and they bled the enemy so that Japan wasn't able to score a lopsided victory; more than that, the Allies came out on top in a tough fray. John didn't commit any cruisers (CA or CL) and all his DDs were 6-pointers. He's conserving the good stuff he has remaining but the fact he didn't commit them here is telling. Triage: Minneapolis, Sussex and Valiant will have to hole up in port at Ningpo for awhile. From Here: While watching the combat replay, my overriding thoughts were: Are my guys out of ammo? Will I need to turn Death Star around to detach additional combat TFs to Ningpo? The answer: Apparently not. Most or all of my DDs and CLs have enough ammo to fight another round or two; and several DD TFs weren't even engaged in the battle. So the Allies will hunker down at Ningpo, augmenting the CAP further. John will probably send additional combat TFs this way. And Shanghai is a level 9 airfield. With DS away the obvious thought to him will be to load up Shanghai and bring in Death Star to deal with the doughty Allied ships at Ningpo. I'll reinforce Ningpo with several TFs: One of about six Fletchers and a second flagged by CA Baltimore.

witpqs -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/10/2017 3:43:41 PM)
You have some AE/AKE at Ningpo to rearm ships, yes?

Mike McCreery -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/10/2017 5:47:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel Supply in China is an interesting phenomena. Despite heavy land and air combat by units on the Coastal Front, supply looks flush. I've dropped a decent amount at Foochow but it never seems to diminish. I suspect that supply is filtering through from Interior China (and ultimately from the Burma Road). I will monitor this carefully, because if true that means most of the supply inbound from the DEI can be used for strategic bombing from Formosa - which means, in turn, I have enough supply in theater now to last the rest of the game. We'll see. A while back I did a detailed study tracking supply at various points along the Burma road and into China and posted it in one of Jockemeistr's AARs. Learning what I did from that study made me the advocate I am for shipping huge quantities of supply into Rangoon. We failed historically to turn China into a viable platform for strategic bombing because our air bases were not proximate to Japan, we had to fly supply over the hump and the IJA was still dominant on the ground. In this game, it is definitely possible for a player to turn it into a viable strat bombing platform. 500k to 1m into Rangoon per month and China is flush three months later. I have to concur here. The roads from Rangoon will supply Haiphong and further along if Rangoon is flush with supply. Fuel will flow as well.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/10/2017 6:39:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs You have some AE/AKE at Ningpo to rearm ships, yes? Nope. Too far forward, too exposed, and too small - level 1(1). I'll bring in support ships eventually - probably when Death Star returns.

paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/10/2017 6:56:27 PM)
I went back through the AAR (boy, I am a glutton for punishment). Based on my review of the battles so far - I don't believe John has many, if any, modern DD's left. He's also taken massive losses to his cruisers, based on the reports you've published. I really don't believe he has a lot left - and depending on how damaged those Capital ships are, there might not be many of those left either.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/10/2017 7:20:17 PM)
I believe that's the case. I wonder what KB's escorts look like right now.

Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/10/2017 8:00:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs You have some AE/AKE at Ningpo to rearm ships, yes? Nope. Too far forward, too exposed, and too small - level 1(1). I'll bring in support ships eventually - probably when Death Star returns. That is when you use AKE...unless of course the Allies are short them. AKEs, AD, AG, AGP....that is where you need them. Anyways, I told you that you would get another shot at his ships...John is simply suicidal when it comes to their deployment. I have no clue what he expected to achieve hitting the tip of the spear with only one task force.[&:] Japan doesn't need to sink large ships now, just damage them enough that they are out of the game and not bombarding his bases daily. He was really lucky in that he encountered those slow battleships which really are only good for cap traps and bombarding at this point and not two modern battleships. Hit Japan's repair shipyards and any major damage he suffered won't ever get fixed if it is greater than 5. Multiple inferior task forces will always win out in the end with normal settings. Where were the PT boats? Check their leaders, task force number and patrol orders...you really want them fighting first.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/11/2017 12:51:25 AM)
I think I understand John's thinking here: Ningpo is a major threat to Japan; at long last, he had a window to take on a major Allied fleet under somewhat favorable odds (at least, not impossible odds). He was hoping to win the naval battle to get a crack at Ningpo, eventually to close down the airfield. I think that was a good idea. He probably needed to go "all in" with everything he had, including carriers. When the Allies took Ningpo a month or two back, John wrote something to this effect: "Oh, I was afraid you were coming for something important." I don't think he was playing mind games there. I think he briefly but truly thought Ningpo was of considerably less importance than other possible targets. I believe he changed his mind pretty soon, probably with an assist from his Peanut Gallery. He knows Ningpo is dangerous, dangerous, dangerous. Will he come again? I don't know at this point. If he has enough to fight with, yes. If he doesn't have enough, then the state of his navy is really critical.

JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/11/2017 1:03:45 AM)
quote: Will he come again? I don't know at this point. If he has enough to fight with, yes. If he doesn't have enough, then the state of his navy is really critical. Not sure of the available ships but he doesn't have much fast and heavy stuff left. I presume he used the fast BB's because he either doesn't have any old slow ones or those could not get back under air cover in time. CA's would be perfect but he has few of those. I figure if any of those fast BB's are in good shape he comes back. You got pretty beat up too and he knows what you have. Odds are no worse than they were before

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/11/2017 1:13:14 AM)
I think only Kongo of those four is fit to fight in the near or medium term. I have a bunch of DDs there (and a few CLs), some with full ammo. A six-DD Fletcher TF will arrive tonight. CA Baltimore will arrive tomorrow. BBs New Jersey and Iowa are stationed at Taichu and will move forward if necessary. The key here is to not let John overwhelm Ningpo, especially to the point of re-taking the base. I think I just parried his "best shot." The fighting isn't over and it may get dicey before Death Star returns, but the Allied navy stood firm yesterday.

Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/11/2017 1:38:33 AM)
11/23/44 Fancy Pants: It's hard to present a lucid diagram of what's going on in China right now. So many units in so many places going in so many directions. Overall, progress is being made to "destroying from within" the integrity of the Japanese position in China. The Allies should continue to make satisfactory progress while Death Star is away. When it returns, it's bringing supply and a huge reinforcing army. So, when Death Star arrives it will inject a higher pace of offensive operations - in the air, on the sea, on the ground - that should take us well into the New Year. [image]local://upfiles/8143/AA3D9BD2C0FA4A018BACC5ABCEB4FE60.jpg[/image]

paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (9/11/2017 2:17:46 PM)
Very interesting watching the collapse of the Japanese position - both in its manner & speed. Anything interesting going on in Indochina?

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