I Want To Know (Full Version)

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tocaff -> I Want To Know (4/15/2013 2:03:58 AM)

I want to know from those of you who have the game what you think about it. I`m looking for something to take up some time between my WITP and WITPAE PBEM turns.



Aurelian -> RE: I Want To Know (4/15/2013 2:34:24 AM)

It's a good one. Plenty of depth, colonial, economic, military.

It's a long game, 1680 turns long. (Yes, there are a few scenarios, but they're all wars.)

It's not a game of instant gratification. Colonies take years to develop for example.

Here's what I think is a good review. http://www.outofeight.info/2011/06/pride-of-nations-review.html



tocaff -> RE: I Want To Know (4/15/2013 2:41:16 AM)

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. My playing of WITP also feeds me a very long game, 1 turn in it is a day out of WW II.

I've already read that review. I wanted to hear from players around here on what they think.



Alfred -> RE: I Want To Know (4/15/2013 4:04:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

... I`m looking for something to take up some time between my WITP and WITPAE PBEM turns.


Sacrilegious![:)]

Why there is always the AE game manual to study in between turns. Then using the search function on the AE forum to find nuggets of info.[;)]

Plus don't you have to find time somewhere to feed yourself. May as well do that between PBEM turns. And if you are not in the position of being independently wealthy, the need to generate some income might also eat into your free time.

I'll give you time to repent and not immediately report you to the AE forum.

Alfred



loki100 -> RE: I Want To Know (4/15/2013 7:53:28 AM)


quote:

I wanted to hear from players around here on what they think.


Its very in-depth (though mostly pretty logical once you see how it slots together), the whole colonial element is a game in itself and very well modelled - development, rebellion, wars all feel right. Equally colonial warfare is very different than waging war in Europe (due to the different types of troops involved). The diplomatic strand is inspired and the 'crisis' system captures a key part of 19C diplomacy.

The Grand Campaign does take time and the best mindset, esp at the start, is to keep reminding yourself its a marathon not a sprint. You win by 'prestige', you gain prestige from colonies, industrialisation, occupying your objectives and winning battles. So all those elements are tools to an end - so you may end up with factories built for status rather than economics (up to a point).

If you've never played an AGE game before, then play the shorter scenarios. At the least that will get you used to army movement and issues such as stances/commitment/mutual support which are key. Equally you'll start to appreciate the value of artillery as a force multiplier in otherwise even numbered battles. The Boer War scenario (that comes with the game) is invaluable to learn the difficulties a European style army has with an enemy who does not want to fight in serried ranks on a defined battlefield.

For time played per £/$ spent, its probably been the best purchase I've ever made.

You may also want to check out the AARs on theh AGEOD forum - may give you a feel for how the game plays.

On the other hand, its not perfect. The game systems all work, some show real design genius, but some of the key event chains tend to break down. So some willingness to amend themm to fit your game will help your enjoyment - there is an active discussion on the AGEOD forum about this and people will help if you have problems. Hopefully with the new arrangements, a patch will appear that picks up on some of the bits that need more attention.



Vasquez -> RE: I Want To Know (4/15/2013 4:47:08 PM)

I wrote a review for 7idgaming.de (in german language) back in the day with a preview copy (from Paradox) of PoN. My original Rating was 85%. The only bummer were the bad graphics and the ridiculous AI Turn calculation times (5-7 Minutes even on faster Computers). I bought the game after release anyway (on Steam at full Price) since I liked it and hoped the calculation times between the turn will improve with some patches.

Six months later I decided to devaluate my overall rating down to 75% since the turn times were still extremely Long. Minor improvements were made yes, but still a game braker imo. I would need to have a look again if its in acceptable state now.

Apart from that PoN is my favorite AGEOD game together with ACW.



sanch -> RE: I Want To Know (4/16/2013 2:27:00 AM)

Its a good game. The only downside is the 5-8 minutes it takes the AI to run the turns. If you multiply 5 minutes by 1680 turns (140 hours!!!), it becomes a truly huge chunk of time. And, unlike WitP or WitE, there is absolutely nothing happening to amuse the user during this time.

Ultimately, this processing time turned me off. But if you have lots of patience, yes, it is a good game.



Twotribes -> RE: I Want To Know (4/16/2013 5:21:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sanch

Its a good game. The only downside is the 5-8 minutes it takes the AI to run the turns. If you multiply 5 minutes by 1680 turns (140 hours!!!), it becomes a truly huge chunk of time. And, unlike WitP or WitE, there is absolutely nothing happening to amuse the user during this time.

Ultimately, this processing time turned me off. But if you have lots of patience, yes, it is a good game.

That is better then the 15 minutes to half an hour my Advanced Tactics Gold games run on solo. I like large maps. Still not sure though I am no fan of the game mechanics of AGOED.



Vasquez -> RE: I Want To Know (4/22/2013 4:53:52 AM)

Sooo. All the moaning about PoN forced me to reinstall the game again from my Steam libary. Its still a wonderfull  game (if you can life with the *not that beautyfull* map and are used to the AGEOD Interface). Thank god I wrote a economy guide back in the day. Had to re-read my own guide to remember how the game & economy works =) Iam playing as prussia (what else?) and reached almost 1860 now.
The AI turns needs 2 to 2,5 minutes now (starting with 30-50 seconds within the first rounds) . Thats ok for me (not that 5-6 minutes after release).

Of course I have to mention that I bought a new gamingsystem meanwhile. My old PC was a dual-core with 4GB Ram. The new one is a quadcore (i7-3770 3.50 GHz ) with 16GB. Therefore, if you have a quick System the AI turns are tolerable now it seems. 




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: I Want To Know (4/22/2013 5:39:21 AM)

I actually think the map is very nice. Might I ask what it is that others do not care for with it?

I have the demo and have messed with it a bit, just on the surface. The thing that strikes me is the hugeness of PON. I hope that is something that will not change with their titles in the future.



Vasquez -> RE: I Want To Know (4/22/2013 6:14:02 AM)

PoN is beer & pretzels compared to ACW as example. It just looks huge in the beginning. If you get into the economy part PoN is a self-runner. Once the economy is set-up in the first rounds I need only 1-2 minutes for every turn (thats the reason why PoN Vets are complaining about the AI turn times. They take longer than your own). 

Not that many military stuff to do (in PoN the Military part is not that complicated like in other AGEOD games. No Corp-Structures and such). The colonial part is a bit strange in the beginning but once you figured it out it takes only a few adjustemends and orders every few turns. 



wosung -> RE: I Want To Know (4/22/2013 9:36:38 AM)

PON is a global strategy game built with an enhanced operational engine, used before for modelling shorter conflicts. For me all this somehow does not fit together - despite great ideas and details.

In PON you have two week turns, which is ok when at war pushing counters. But not so with the other aspects of the game. Frex, it takes over a year (over 26 turns) to build a factory. So, depending on the nation you play, you have many turns without much player input. And remember: Turn resolution takes its time.

Arguably, it would have been better and more fun if they'd built PON with monthly or even two- or three-month turns. Yes, no more detailed operational maneuver warfare we are used to from AACW. Yes, then WW1 would play out *clumsy*. But compared to AACW's map PON is scaled up in space anyway. Plus, PON is not about the four years of WW1 but about an era of 70 years. And if you'd have far less turns, there would be many more meaningful things to do per turn. Some 280 to 840 turns instead of 1820.



Pocus -> RE: I Want To Know (4/22/2013 11:10:05 AM)

That's probably a design error we did (post-mortem analys mode ON [:'(] )

Because we knew the late game tempo would not be good with a month a turn, we sticked to 2 weeks. But 90% of the time you play is not in the late game in the end, so our prioritization was bad.



wosung -> RE: I Want To Know (4/22/2013 7:14:35 PM)

Thank you for sharing those thougths, Pocus. I know, post-mortem analysis is a walk in the park compared with designing or coding a game.

May I ask, would it be possible to change the time frame for a turn in PON to, say, a month or two months? Without massively re-designing the AGE engine? I'd imagine, at least movement rates, event occurrence would have to change.

But maybe those changes would be less work than painfully optimizing turn resolution time? Plus, having a procedure for an adaptive flexible turn lenght would open new topics for AGE games: Longer eras, but still only 100-150 turns? Now, 130 two-week turns will get you 5 years.

I remember a thread at the AGEOD forum about a PON with monthly turns.

As for PON's end game (aka: WW1): Why not making an independant new game out of it? With (two-)week or even weekly turns and maybe your huge new map of Europe?

Best regards



Pocus -> RE: I Want To Know (4/23/2013 4:01:41 PM)

Switching to one month a turn is doable, now it is difficult to estimate the time it would take to test the changes. This will be probably on our list if we ever get to make a PON expansion though.
WW1, what a fascinating subject! [:)]



wosung -> RE: I Want To Know (4/24/2013 9:04:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus
WW1, what a fascinating subject! [:)]


That's what I think too, esp. for AGEOD:

-You already have most parts of it (but not together): all the WW1 data & ideas from Phil's boardgame La Grand Guerre and Luca's PC game conversion (which is not using the AGE engine), the new huge map of Europe.

-WW1 could work well with the AGE engine when front behavior is incorporated.

-There's already a mod combining AGE and LGG, made by Altaris. And I know you're playing around with it, Pocus.

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?27011-The-Guns-of-August-Mod-%28World-War-I-1914-Scenario%29

-There are not too many WW1 games out there, at least compared with WW2: LGG, Commander - The Great War, Frank Hunter's Guns of August and Tiller's France 1914.

-Last not least, there's an anniversary coming soon creating buzz.

You probably don't have time to do WW1 yourself with AACW2 in pipeline.

But WW1 would be a logical next choice.

Best regards



Mac Linehan -> RE: I Want To Know (4/24/2013 8:32:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

That's probably a design error we did (post-mortem analys mode ON [:'(] )

Because we knew the late game tempo would not be good with a month a turn, we sticked to 2 weeks. But 90% of the time you play is not in the late game in the end, so our prioritization was bad.


Pocus -

Appreciate you perspective, regardless, I love the game!

wonsung -

The First World War is high on my list two; one can always hope...

Mac



Vasquez -> RE: I Want To Know (4/24/2013 8:40:03 PM)

Bah screw your WW1 ;) Ageod should make a medieval game ---> http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3313013

Los los auf geht's Pocüs :)



warspite1 -> RE: I Want To Know (4/24/2013 8:51:08 PM)

+ 4,327 for a WWI game



wosung -> RE: I Want To Know (4/24/2013 8:56:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vasquez

Bah screw your WW1 ;) Ageod should make a medieval game ---> http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3313013

Los los auf geht's Pocüs :)


Medieval operational/strategic game with weekly or monthly turns would need a lot of work to make it more exciting than a sleeping pill. But tastes differ.






wosung -> RE: I Want To Know (4/24/2013 9:10:58 PM)

Besides, there's a poll & a discussion about possible topics for a future AGE game over there at the AGEOD forum. Mediaval is quite popular in it. But what will Slitherixod do next with the AGE-engine, after AACW2...?

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?25418-Which-topic-for-a-future-AGE-engine-game



wodin -> RE: I Want To Know (4/24/2013 9:45:20 PM)

Weekly turns for WW1 on the big new map would get me very excited indeed.



Twotribes -> RE: I Want To Know (4/24/2013 10:13:37 PM)

WWI, you mean a long slow slug fest of no movement and massive death? Haven't found a single WWI game that I played more then 2 times.



grogmaster -> RE: I Want To Know (4/25/2013 12:11:57 AM)

I played this game for 1 whole day about 6 months ago. Now its uninstalled. Anyone want it? I'll sell it, unless Matrix Games is preventing people to sell their software.



wosung -> RE: I Want To Know (4/25/2013 9:02:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

WWI, you mean a long slow slug fest of no movement and massive death? Haven't found a single WWI game that I played more then 2 times.


Well, WW1 isn't only Western Front 1915-17.



vonRocko -> RE: I Want To Know (4/25/2013 2:07:10 PM)

The current Ageod engine would be horrible for WW1. It's not geared for static warfare. It models pre 20th century much better.



loki100 -> RE: I Want To Know (4/25/2013 4:05:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

The current Ageod engine would be horrible for WW1. It's not geared for static warfare. It models pre 20th century much better.


I'm not so sure about that, in my current Pride of Nations campaign I've seen the potential for how 'march to the sound of the guns' plus the combat engine can generate both the static nature of the war in the West and Italy and the more open warfare in Russia.



jhdeerslayer -> RE: I Want To Know (4/25/2013 4:17:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: grogmaster

I played this game for 1 whole day about 6 months ago. Now its uninstalled. Anyone want it? I'll sell it, unless Matrix Games is preventing people to sell their software.


What didn't you like? Or maybe you liked but 1 day of gaming it burned you out...



wosung -> RE: I Want To Know (4/25/2013 5:40:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

The current Ageod engine would be horrible for WW1. It's not geared for static warfare. It models pre 20th century much better.


Is there *any* engine at all on the grand operational/stratetgic level which is geared for static warfare?!

The AGE engine wouldn't be worse than the other ones. Though, the two Phils admitted that, as it is now, there would be problems with continuous front behavior. I also could imagine that there could be a display problem with the rather big AGE unit counters in continuous front mode.

At least, Ageod kicked around some rather unusual ideas for trench warfare with its boardgame conversion of La Grand Guerre, though not with the AGE engine.



Pocus -> RE: I Want To Know (4/28/2013 6:51:11 AM)

This problem would not be one, because I think it can be amended rather well (and the AI can be made to create fronts). To do a WW1 though, you would need to improve PON turn processing before probably.



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