CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (Full Version)

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lion_of_judah -> CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (4/30/2013 5:34:22 AM)

I'm having a hard time locating detailed OOB's for the KMT (Nationalist Chinese) and CCP (Communist Chinese) regimes for my new scenario. I'm not able to locate any detailed information what soever, just vague information. if anyone can point me in the right direction it will be greatly appreciated. One would think there would be a ton of information on this other than Wiki, not the most reliable source of information out there



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 4:09:20 AM)

i have finally found an OOB for the Nationalist army, but back from 1941, so i will have to use this. 12 Infantry Divisions will be level 3 infantry, machineguns ect. which represents those divisions which were trained by the U.S. Also, those Divisions which are not level 3 will also have a readiness of 50 and a experience level of 25. I do not know the exact number of divisions but it totaled some 300,000 troops trained by the U.S. the rest will start out with level 1 everything. I'm still trying to obtain a OOB for the Communists.



Tophat1815 -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 3:00:05 PM)

A factor you might wish to consider:"Chinese Warlords". Some of the warlords local forces were well equipped,supplied or experienced. Both the nationalists and communists to an extent courted these warlords to join their factions or eliminated them if they did not.

To simulate this can you use the supply containers in the game? Or do event cards based on holding certain cities?

Just a thought. Good luck with this effort.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 8:44:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

A factor you might wish to consider:"Chinese Warlords". Some of the warlords local forces were well equipped,supplied or experienced. Both the nationalists and communists to an extent courted these warlords to join their factions or eliminated them if they did not.

To simulate this can you use the supply containers in the game? Or do event cards based on holding certain cities?

Just a thought. Good luck with this effort.


Thanks for the information, that is something I'm interested in doing....



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 8:46:02 PM)

1st screenshot is of Nationalist positions in Manchuria, 8 Divisions in this area are U.S. trained and equipped. Level 3 for the ROC (Republic of China) represent units which have received U.S. training. These units have full readiness and experience, while those units which are level 1 have full readiness, but experience level is only 25

[image]local://upfiles/23616/5B4FEA45E53D4D32B76F021C16B8F5E2.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 8:46:49 PM)

Nationalist positions

[image]local://upfiles/23616/F956396BEFC3477092F9F521821D9BEB.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 8:47:44 PM)

Nationalist Positions continued

[image]local://upfiles/23616/890A8BDEBBAB409A96F0349B4D87E01D.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 8:48:23 PM)

Nationalist positions

[image]local://upfiles/23616/98ED856221804C6A9989E3819AC53ED9.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 8:49:02 PM)

French Positions in Indochia

[image]local://upfiles/23616/E1E2803A756245D19CBEA28CE1310309.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 8:49:46 PM)

Indian Capital

[image]local://upfiles/23616/7F3CA73A1184486D9E3A5771F79A6734.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 8:52:34 PM)

Screenshots of Chinese communists not ready, as I have not completed locating a good OOB for them



samurai023 -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 9:32:40 PM)

Wiki (but in Chinese) provides the OOB (down to division level) of three decisive campaigns, namely HuaiHai(or Xu-Beng called by KMT), PingJin(named after BeiPing and Tianjin) and LiaoShen(literally the abbreviation of Liaoning-Shenyang). Although these campaigns happened in the last year of Chinese Civil war, I think the OOB could serve as a good instrument when you are trying to get the OOB at the beginning of the war.

I could find some materials in Chinese about the OOB at the begging of the war, but it was army level.

If the scenario is going to cover the whole period, a factor you may want to consider is the growing rate of PLA, which in the history started with 1.2 million in July 1946, then grew to 2.8 million in June 1948, and reached 4 million in June 1949.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 11:19:13 PM)

ROC had 215-250 P-51 at the outset of the war, plus other fighters. each air group consists of 14-22 planes. unit scale is as follows:

Infantry Division
Infantry Brigade
Tank Brigade
Infantry Regiment
Air Group
Fighter Group



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/2/2013 11:22:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samurai023

Wiki (but in Chinese) provides the OOB (down to division level) of three decisive campaigns, namely HuaiHai(or Xu-Beng called by KMT), PingJin(named after BeiPing and Tianjin) and LiaoShen(literally the abbreviation of Liaoning-Shenyang). Although these campaigns happened in the last year of Chinese Civil war, I think the OOB could serve as a good instrument when you are trying to get the OOB at the beginning of the war.

I could find some materials in Chinese about the OOB at the begging of the war, but it was army level.

If the scenario is going to cover the whole period, a factor you may want to consider is the growing rate of PLA, which in the history started with 1.2 million in July 1946, then grew to 2.8 million in June 1948, and reached 4 million in June 1949.



I'll take any help I can get, cannot read Chinese though, but I'll take your help. I found a OOB for the Nationalist army but it is for 1941, what I'm trying to find now is a OOB for the communists side. I have not decided whether or not to make Russia active, as they were actively involved in the civil war either directly or indirectly, right now the only 2 regimes active are the Nationalist and Communists.

There are 13 regimes for this, but as I said above only 2 are active at the start, the other regimes do not activate unless attacked. Regimes are as follows

Nationalist China - active
Communist China - active
Soviet Union- undecided
Indo-China - asleep
Dutch East Indies - asleep
Japan - asleep
United States- asleep
Philippines - asleep
British India - asleep
Britain - asleep
British Malaysia -asleep
France - asleep
Mongolia - asleep





lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 12:11:18 AM)

I have also made it where one can build a capital city ( this represents the communists capturing Beiping (Beijing) and making it their new capital, but to do this is very, very expensive in PP's. So if the communists capture Beiping and make it their new capital, then their current capital " Yen'an" can be changed back into a city.

I'm also curious if supply will travel through an ally nation, asking because the communist Chinese control northern Manchuria, while the Nationalist control southern Manchuria and while northern Manchuria is connected to the rest of Communist controlled China, a part of it is through mountains where there are no roads. So since CPC (communist party china) is allied with Mongolia will supply travel through Mongolia to the rest of CPC controlled territory that is adjacent to Mongolia....



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 12:32:25 AM)

one other thing, one of the Nationalist Corps in Manchuria is called " Manchurian advanced Corps" I have not been able to locate information on this Corps, so I'm assuming that this corps held Mechanized and light Armour units, or rather that is what I'm giving them. The mechanized units are U.S.trained as well and have level 2 Light Tanks (Stuart light tanks and M-3 halftracks). If anyone though has information regarding this Corps that I have not been able to find, please let me know as I will update these units accordingly.



samurai023 -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 12:40:30 AM)

About supply, I think most supply of PLA came from local people, mainly farmers. CPC built up many "liberated districts" during the War of Resistance Against Japan and the Civil War. In these areas, PLA took land from old landlords and distribute it to farmers, who actually worked on the land but did not own it. Since farmers benefited a lot from such land reform, they truly love the communist party and PLA. Therefore, PLA can get supply form local farmers and recruitment too. This explains why PLA was growing so fast.

After Japan surrendered, the communist party sent many troops to Manchuria and many experienced administrators who knew how to launch land reform in order to get support from local farmers. But short after, KMT also sent its elite troops to Manchuria and drove PLA out of southern Manchuria. PLA had a very tough time in northern Manchuria and was even threatened by banditry. Gradually, PLA eliminated banditry or converted them and built up "liberated districts".



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 12:47:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samurai023

About supply, I think most supply of PLA came from local people, mainly farmers. CPC built up many "liberated districts" during the War of Resistance Against Japan and the Civil War. In these areas, PLA took land from old landlords and distribute it to farmers, who actually worked on the land but did not own it. Since farmers benefited a lot from such land reform, they truly love the communist party and PLA. Therefore, PLA can get supply form local farmers and recruitment too. This explains why PLA was growing so fast.

After Japan surrendered, the communist party sent many troops to Manchuria and many experienced administrators who knew how to launch land reform in order to get support from local farmers. But short after, KMT also sent its elite troops to Manchuria and drove PLA out of southern Manchuria. PLA had a very tough time in northern Manchuria and was even threatened by banditry. Gradually, PLA eliminated banditry or converted them and built up "liberated districts".


from what I have read thus far, the CPC fourth Army was in Manchuria, so are you aware of how many Corps and Divisions they had in this theater. thanks



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 1:24:04 AM)

Nationalist- have a main army corps HQ, called a " Army Group" then 1-3 or more Corps attached and from 2-4 Infantry Divisions attached to the corps. I have 4 pages of OOB for the Nationalist Chinese and I'm only on page 2, don't know if I will put all 4 pages of units onto the map, just too many. I haven't been able to find a good Airforce OOB, than what I have found so far, regarding the P-51 planes the Nationalists had. I did read where the CPC had an airforce, but they were flown by Soviet pilot's until Communist Chinese could be trained



samurai023 -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 1:37:15 AM)

In 1946, it was named Northeast Democratic United Army, with 5 columns (1,2,3,4,6), 1 brigade and 3 divisions. The total number of main force was 120,000.

In may 1947, Northeast Democratic United Army had 9 columns (1~10 except 5th) and begun strategic offensive. The total number of is around 460,000.

On Jan 1st 1948, it was renamed as Northeast People's Liberation Army. In Feb, it had 12 (1~12) columns.

On Aug 14th 1948, it became Northeast Field Army and had 12 infantry columns, 15 independent divisions, 1 artillery column, 1 railway column, 3 cavalry divisions and 1 tank regiment, totaled 1,030,000.

After Liao-Shen campaign, on Nov 13 1948, its 12 columns were renamed as 38~49 corps, each having 3 divisions. KMP 60th corps became its 50th corps.

On March 11 1949, it was renamed as 4th Field Army. Although names as "army", it was actually army group. It had 4 "BingTuan(in Chinese)", which was equivalent to army, as follws:
12nd Army: 40th(118,119,120,153 Div), 45th(133,134,135,158 Div), 46th(136,137,138,159 Div) corps;
13rd Army: 38th(112,113,114,151 Div), 47th(139,140,141,160 Div), 49th(142,143,144,162 Div) corps;
14th Army: 39th(115,116,117,152 Div), 41st(121,122,123,154 Div), 42nd(124,125,126, 155 Div) corps;
15th Army: 43rd(127,128,129,156 Div), 44th(130,131,132,157 Div), 48th(142,143,144,161 Div) corps and another column called "Liang(means two)-Guang" (GuangDong and GuangXi provinces).

Later on, only 3 divisions were attached to each corps.



Tophat1815 -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 2:19:33 AM)

Ask in the command Ops forum section about communist and nationalist OOB information sources. It's a very knowledgeable and helpful group that can pull information sources out of their posteriors. I'll lay odds they can site some good info sources.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 2:48:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samurai023

In 1946, it was named Northeast Democratic United Army, with 5 columns (1,2,3,4,6), 1 brigade and 3 divisions. The total number of main force was 120,000.

In may 1947, Northeast Democratic United Army had 9 columns (1~10 except 5th) and begun strategic offensive. The total number of is around 460,000.

On Jan 1st 1948, it was renamed as Northeast People's Liberation Army. In Feb, it had 12 (1~12) columns.

On Aug 14th 1948, it became Northeast Field Army and had 12 infantry columns, 15 independent divisions, 1 artillery column, 1 railway column, 3 cavalry divisions and 1 tank regiment, totaled 1,030,000.

After Liao-Shen campaign, on Nov 13 1948, its 12 columns were renamed as 38~49 corps, each having 3 divisions. KMP 60th corps became its 50th corps.

On March 11 1949, it was renamed as 4th Field Army. Although names as "army", it was actually army group. It had 4 "BingTuan(in Chinese)", which was equivalent to army, as follws:
12nd Army: 40th(118,119,120,153 Div), 45th(133,134,135,158 Div), 46th(136,137,138,159 Div) corps;
13rd Army: 38th(112,113,114,151 Div), 47th(139,140,141,160 Div), 49th(142,143,144,162 Div) corps;
14th Army: 39th(115,116,117,152 Div), 41st(121,122,123,154 Div), 42nd(124,125,126, 155 Div) corps;
15th Army: 43rd(127,128,129,156 Div), 44th(130,131,132,157 Div), 48th(142,143,144,161 Div) corps and another column called "Liang(means two)-Guang" (GuangDong and GuangXi provinces).

Later on, only 3 divisions were attached to each corps.


very nice, thanks. so does column mean army or corps?



samurai023 -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 2:50:19 AM)

column means corps.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 2:55:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah


quote:

ORIGINAL: samurai023

In 1946, it was named Northeast Democratic United Army, with 5 columns (1,2,3,4,6), 1 brigade and 3 divisions. The total number of main force was 120,000.

In may 1947, Northeast Democratic United Army had 9 columns (1~10 except 5th) and begun strategic offensive. The total number of is around 460,000.

On Jan 1st 1948, it was renamed as Northeast People's Liberation Army. In Feb, it had 12 (1~12) columns.

On Aug 14th 1948, it became Northeast Field Army and had 12 infantry columns, 15 independent divisions, 1 artillery column, 1 railway column, 3 cavalry divisions and 1 tank regiment, totaled 1,030,000.

After Liao-Shen campaign, on Nov 13 1948, its 12 columns were renamed as 38~49 corps, each having 3 divisions. KMP 60th corps became its 50th corps.

On March 11 1949, it was renamed as 4th Field Army. Although names as "army", it was actually army group. It had 4 "BingTuan(in Chinese)", which was equivalent to army, as follws:
12nd Army: 40th(118,119,120,153 Div), 45th(133,134,135,158 Div), 46th(136,137,138,159 Div) corps;
13rd Army: 38th(112,113,114,151 Div), 47th(139,140,141,160 Div), 49th(142,143,144,162 Div) corps;
14th Army: 39th(115,116,117,152 Div), 41st(121,122,123,154 Div), 42nd(124,125,126, 155 Div) corps;
15th Army: 43rd(127,128,129,156 Div), 44th(130,131,132,157 Div), 48th(142,143,144,161 Div) corps and another column called "Liang(means two)-Guang" (GuangDong and GuangXi provinces).

Later on, only 3 divisions were attached to each corps.


very nice, thanks. so does column mean army or corps?

thanks, what were the strengths of the irregular forces and were their units formed into something higher than battalion




lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 2:56:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

Ask in the command Ops forum section about communist and nationalist OOB information sources. It's a very knowledgeable and helpful group that can pull information sources out of their posteriors. I'll lay odds they can site some good info sources.


thanks very much, now this is a silly question but where are the command ops forum... NEVER mind, i have found it but thanks for pointing me in this direction



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 3:00:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samurai023

In 1946, it was named Northeast Democratic United Army, with 5 columns (1,2,3,4,6), 1 brigade and 3 divisions. The total number of main force was 120,000.

In may 1947, Northeast Democratic United Army had 9 columns (1~10 except 5th) and begun strategic offensive. The total number of is around 460,000.

On Jan 1st 1948, it was renamed as Northeast People's Liberation Army. In Feb, it had 12 (1~12) columns.

On Aug 14th 1948, it became Northeast Field Army and had 12 infantry columns, 15 independent divisions, 1 artillery column, 1 railway column, 3 cavalry divisions and 1 tank regiment, totaled 1,030,000.

After Liao-Shen campaign, on Nov 13 1948, its 12 columns were renamed as 38~49 corps, each having 3 divisions. KMP 60th corps became its 50th corps.

On March 11 1949, it was renamed as 4th Field Army. Although names as "army", it was actually army group. It had 4 "BingTuan(in Chinese)", which was equivalent to army, as follws:
12nd Army: 40th(118,119,120,153 Div), 45th(133,134,135,158 Div), 46th(136,137,138,159 Div) corps;
13rd Army: 38th(112,113,114,151 Div), 47th(139,140,141,160 Div), 49th(142,143,144,162 Div) corps;
14th Army: 39th(115,116,117,152 Div), 41st(121,122,123,154 Div), 42nd(124,125,126, 155 Div) corps;
15th Army: 43rd(127,128,129,156 Div), 44th(130,131,132,157 Div), 48th(142,143,144,161 Div) corps and another column called "Liang(means two)-Guang" (GuangDong and GuangXi provinces).

Later on, only 3 divisions were attached to each corps.


doesn't appear at first the CPC had enough men to fight in Manchuria and protect their capital at "Yen'an". is this where their irregular forces took up the lack of trained regular main force units. As of right now I have the CPC starting first, but maybe I should have the ROC begin first. thank you very much, you have helped tremendously in regards to these OOB's



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 3:19:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

Ask in the command Ops forum section about communist and nationalist OOB information sources. It's a very knowledgeable and helpful group that can pull information sources out of their posteriors. I'll lay odds they can site some good info sources.



NEVER mind, i found it, but thanks for pointing me in this direction



samurai023 -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 3:23:52 AM)

Irregular forces were mainly militia, most of which gradually became regular force. That is the reason why PLA grew that fast.

CPC sent in total 110,000 troops to Manchuria in the autunm of 1945. 6,000 were from Eighth Route Army's ShanDong military district; 30,000 from New Fourth Army in the Yangzi River area; the rest from military districts of ShaanXi and ShanXi and Heibei provinces.

At that time, Manchuri was the most industrilized ares in China. So CPC definitely wanted to occupy it before KMT could take any actions. Stalin also told Mao to do so. According to what I know, Mao at first planned to choose one major city in Manchuria as capital of his party.

I am not sure if Mao really need many troops to protect Yen'an. PLA was very good at guerilla warfare. In 1947, when Zongnan HU led 200,000 army to attach Yen'an. Mao left Yen'an and in some sense used himself as bait to attract HU's army. During 3 months chasing, HU's army was defeated many times by Dehuai PENG's Northwest Field Army but still could not find Mao.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 3:35:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samurai023

Irregular forces were mainly militia, most of which gradually became regular force. That is the reason why PLA grew that fast.

CPC sent in total 110,000 troops to Manchuria in the autunm of 1945. 6,000 were from Eighth Route Army's ShanDong military district; 30,000 from New Fourth Army in the Yangzi River area; the rest from military districts of ShaanXi and ShanXi and Heibei provinces.

At that time, Manchuri was the most industrilized ares in China. So CPC definitely wanted to occupy it before KMT could take any actions. Stalin also told Mao to do so. According to what I know, Mao at first planned to choose one major city in Manchuria as capital of his party.

I am not sure if Mao really need many troops to protect Yen'an. PLA was very good at guerilla warfare. In 1947, when Zongnan HU led 200,000 army to attach Yen'an. Mao left Yen'an and in some sense used himself as bait to attract HU's army. During 3 months chasing, HU's army was defeated many times by Dehuai PENG's Northwest Field Army but still could not find Mao.



thanks a lot for the information. The Nationalist setup is off a map I found showing positions as of 1946 showing KMT forces and their position in China and Manchuria. Nationalist forces controlling southern Manchuria and CPC forces controlling the northern portion of Manchuria.

the 100,000 troops the CPC sent to Manchuria, this just left the 20,000 men to defend Yen'an or more if you include irregular forces. I plan on adding irregular forces as well for the Communist side. Another question, were the irregular forces brigade or division size formations or smaller.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 3:53:41 AM)

I know that the KMT had tanks, but I do not know how many, what kind or if they were formed into Brigades or just attached to the infantry Divisions. I haven't attached any to the infantry Divisions, but have given the KMT 2 light tank brigades level 1. The mechanized brigades have given them level 2 tanks. For the CPC forces, I know that they had tanks but I do not know how many or if they were attached to infantry Divisions or formed into Brigades/Regiments. I did read that the CPC received tanks from the Soviet Union and from capturing them during battles with the KMT but were not able to use them until they were trained by KMT deserters....




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