RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (Full Version)

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smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 12:06:41 AM)

Turn 6 - AGN

The pocket I was hoping to pull off north of Pskov turns into nothing as Sapper forces Totenkopf to retreat and his units move North. A decent turn here as I win most of my battles and a large number of Soviet divisions that join in as reserves join in losing battles - hopefully this will notch down Soviet morale a bit. I've put my best commanders in I and II corps as they have the best German infantry divisions. I've also added artillery and pioneers to these corps to help their cause.



[image]local://upfiles/27926/649B33BF4639436DA68FA55E217B2501.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 12:13:45 AM)

Turn 6 - AGC

This is very frustrating! I've never had so much trouble making progress in this area and as each turn slips by Sappers forts get more deadly. I crossed the Dnepr with two strong (15CV+) panzer divisions only to see them pushed back by Sapper. One tactic Sapper has used is to attack my panzers with single infantry divisions multiple times prior to his main assault. He loses at odds of 90-1 for a few attacks and then commits 8 divisions to the final attack and pushes me back. I don't like it and think its gamey however he claims he is doing it as recon. I don't suspect he will change and I'm not sure how to counter this.....


I did manage to break down a few forts in the landbridge area so hopefully when I do breakthrough I can get get some momentum.

2nd panzer army crosses in two spots - 3 armor divisions near Mogilev and an infantry division in a swamp further south. Hopefully 1 of the 2 will hold.

[image]local://upfiles/27926/CBA0A649A3574A7DBE3C4A1D2F8778ED.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 12:16:25 AM)

Turn 6 - Velike Luki.

I forgot the screenshot of XXIX Pz corps and 2nd army. They continue to make slow progress towards VL. I.m starting to think I may be wasting my mobile units here and I'm considering sending this Pz corps north to help assault Leningrad. The way this game is going has me worried that if I don't take Leningrad and free up the Finns I could be toast during the blizzard. Thoughts......

[image]local://upfiles/27926/2F111B8E091E41D3AE47DEC195879AB3.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 12:18:54 AM)

Turn 6 - AGS

6th army crosses the Dnepr! Sapper sent most of his unit south towards Cherkassy to counter me so I'm hoping that 17th army can cross the river near Kiev. He seems thin behind Kiev. I rest all but one corps of my panzers this turn. Riga falls this turn also.

[image]local://upfiles/27926/E0A4F99C87B4473BB2CA68C004B084BB.jpg[/image]



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 1:28:34 AM)

Yah the tactic of constant ant attacks to lower fatigue and ammo is an old one. I used it against the Neva line in my first mp game. I attacked across the Neva with 9 hasty attacks to weaken the defender before hitting it with everything I had. Its cheesy but in a week at a time game I still believe its a valid tactic. Hopefully the overall morale gain makes it worth it to the defender.



Don77 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 1:33:32 AM)

G'day

I'd agree with Michael T - I am playing another CG and have found that the Sov units are now sufficiently strong that the Ge offensive requires more concentration at the main effort, and more economy of force elsewhere. In our game, it is T13 I have ground to a halt 4 hexes short of Leningrad, I am stalled in front of Smolensk, and and struggling to get to Voronezh or Rostov. The corollary is that Sov units routinely now make successful counter attacks. I have been threatened many times with counter-pockets and in fact I may be faced with a war winning/losing action shortly.

All up, the operational level feels right, ie the Ge are slowing down at this operational depth, but I fear the tactics give too much power to the Sovs to make key tactical victories?

Appreciate anyone else's thoughts?

Don.



Michael T -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 1:34:43 AM)

I am convinced the 1:1 thing needs to go from the game completely. The Soviets don't need it anymore with an effective NM of 50.



Michael T -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 1:37:45 AM)

The remedy is simple enough. Lower Soviet morale by 5% or raise German by 10% or some other combination. We can do this in the pre game settings. I won't begin another game without some adjustments here. Playing as either as German or Soviet.



timmyab -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 1:44:17 AM)

Expert Soviet players are unplayable with the game as it is.I hate to say it, but I think this game is done already.
The multiple low odds attack tactic is pretty cheesy.Very low odds attacks should be punished by massive casualties with little to show for it.



Michael T -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 1:53:40 AM)

Yep, the Devs left the stage before the final act [&:]



Flaviusx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 2:37:28 AM)

I've long felt that low odds attacks should result in no fatigue or ammo reduction for the defender. Anything below 1:1. Just a straight up simple rule here. The attempts to reign this in to date have been overcomplicated and ineffective.

Launching a series of weak and uncoordinated attacks ought to be punished and not rewarded. That still leaves you with bombing cheese, though, but that at least can be held down to a dull roar with house rules which it seems most everybody is using now.



carlkay58 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/23/2013 1:13:37 PM)

One of the 'fixes' in version 6.2x was a fix to the multiple attacks draining the supplies and fatigue of the defending units. I have seen the tests that were run before and after the fix and they really did fix the major problem. What it comes down to is that Sapper most likely could have done the single large attack and won right off the bat now.

I am a playtester for WitW and believe me when I say that the developers and programmers are still keeping up with what is being said on the WitE forum and working to fix the problems in WitW so that WitE 2.0 will be a MUCH better game. Unfortunately, that requires patience, something that is hard to have at times.




smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:41:13 AM)

Turn 7 - Finns

The Finns continue south without any resistance in their path. Sapper did place a unit in the northern most port that feeds Leningrad.



[image]local://upfiles/27926/A320B8DDA51C4FC6AAF334CD8565C5AB.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:44:30 AM)

Turn 7 AGN (Pre move)

I performed a HQ buildup of 4th panzer last turn hoping to make some progress towards Leningrad however when I opened Sappers turn I saw that he had built an imposing wall in front of Leningrad so I decided to send 4th panzer SE instead. Hammering the panzers against 20-30CV walls is not what they are intended for - I'm going to try and find some open ground to use their MP's.



[image]local://upfiles/27926/69B8CB2E65A84D4380851D85D5073662.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:46:33 AM)

Turn 7 AGN (Post move)

Not too much accompished here as I attacked in the "right hook" direction since Sapper was weaker in that area. The prospects of taking Leningrad don't look to good.



[image]local://upfiles/27926/EA6375DEB3034D1F915FA34DE4AD0E2E.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:49:16 AM)

Turn 7 VL area (Post move)

4th panzer sloshes through the swamps but manages to get a little breathing room. If I can ever get Sapper lines moving (and thats a BIG if) he may be hurt by the fact that he has ALL his units forward - he doesn't have any forts or defense in depth (but at this point he hasn't needed it!).

This certainly isn't good tank country but if I can clear the Dvina river I may get to open ground.



[image]local://upfiles/27926/29D008F99A4F40E894F7740B0E2AE47E.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:52:38 AM)

Turn 7 AGC (Pre move)

My panzers and infantry are pushed back again by Sappers repeated attacks. [:@]

[image]local://upfiles/27926/A0A4DA77BDBF45CC949DDFE36BFB68E2.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:54:55 AM)

AGC (Post move)

I finally make some headway here with my panzers over the river in force. A few hasty attacks break down some level 2 forts and south of Smolesnk I didn't see a lot of forts so MAYBE I can begin making some headway.

3 of 4th armies best infantry divisions cross over into the swamps and have a defensive CV of 100+. If they get pushed back I may "rage quit" (my new favorite saying I've learned from Sillyflower!)



[image]local://upfiles/27926/2D1002787FC649E1AC07F39FF8444FA3.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:56:42 AM)

Turn 7 AGS (pre move)

For the first time in this game Sapper does a full scale withdrawal and gives up the Dnepr defensive line.

[image]local://upfiles/27926/98D400603D664315BBDF0D8AC2125533.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:59:02 AM)

AGS (Turn 7 post move)

My panzers had some fairly good MP's (although I left one motorized unit on reserve and he joined in on a hasty attack on a security regiment [:@]) and they start pushing east towards the big manpower centers. I sent some 17th army units north to keep Sapper honest there - I don't believe there is a singe Red army soldier in the middle of the map.

[image]local://upfiles/27926/FF8BC8C528CC461E865DACC00309C9D6.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 1:00:53 AM)

Turn 7 (Crimea area)

There also isn't a singe Red army soldier guarding the approches to the Crimea. I make one hasty attack with III PZ corps to break down a fort held by a weak Cavalry unit. 11th army is just about at the river line.

[image]local://upfiles/27926/D40E597ADB6141CCA05993AF7AEDDFAB.jpg[/image]



Shupov -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 1:16:46 AM)

Why not move next to D-Town and Z-Town to pin down their factories? I'm guessing some are still there on T7.



Flaviusx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 3:06:09 AM)

On turn 7? I expect they'd be long gone by that point. They would be for me. It only takes about 10 turns to strip the south clean all the way up to Voronezh and Rostov. At this stage of the game I'd be working on the Stalino complex.






Ketza -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 4:20:37 AM)

Nice AAR.

What is really showing in this AAR is how the new morale rules benefit the Soviet player in a huge way. MT is correct that morale adjustments should be made to compensate for the huge difference in Soviet CV with the higher morale. Combine that with the 1-1 2-1 rule and its a very tough go for an Axis player during the most important part of the campaign. Toss in a bad weather roll or 2 and well you know....



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 9:26:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov

Why not move next to D-Town and Z-Town to pin down their factories? I'm guessing some are still there on T7.


Shupov - FLaviusx is correct, the factories in D/Z town have been gone for a few turns now. There is still plenty in Kharkov/Stalino area but I expect they may be gone by the time I make it there. At least if I can threaten them Sapper may have to divert some rail resources to moving factories instead of railing troops to the front.



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 9:30:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Nice AAR.

What is really showing in this AAR is how the new morale rules benefit the Soviet player in a huge way. MT is correct that morale adjustments should be made to compensate for the huge difference in Soviet CV with the higher morale. Combine that with the 1-1 2-1 rule and its a very tough go for an Axis player during the most important part of the campaign. Toss in a bad weather roll or 2 and well you know....


Thanks Ketza. Sapper's high defensive CV's have really limited my ability to open up any breathing room for my panzers. Hopefully now that things are moving in the south I can do some damage to the Red army.



Flaviusx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:00:34 PM)

Ketza, you could always go for that Romanian cheese.

There are lots of problems in 41. From my perspective the game is borked as of turn 1. Some Axis players around here are getting a bit spoiled, I think, when they consider this to be the defining problem of 1941. Is Soviet morale too high in 41 now? Yes. But that's an issue we arrive at only after the nonsense of the opening turn, which pretty much invalidates the entire campaign.

I can't even stomach PBEM anymore as a result of this. I'm tired of how grossly ahistorical 41 is. People have quietly accepted a bunch of absurdities and are only now getting irritated about this morale thing for the Soviets. There's a lot of selective outrage going on here about this.




Peltonx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:27:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

Yah the tactic of constant ant attacks to lower fatigue and ammo is an old one. I used it against the Neva line in my first mp game. I attacked across the Neva with 9 hasty attacks to weaken the defender before hitting it with everything I had. Its cheesy but in a week at a time game I still believe its a valid tactic. Hopefully the overall morale gain makes it worth it to the defender.


This has no effect at all any more.

It simply blows up the defenders morale now.

To cross the river you have to make 2 DH's and not a bunch of HA's.

This cheese ball tactic has been nerfed. I had 5 on-going games and in 3 SHC player was using this tactic after nerf it became an epic failure tactic.

Sapper is simply wasting me and morale on a nerfed cheesy tactic



Peltonx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:29:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I've long felt that low odds attacks should result in no fatigue or ammo reduction for the defender. Anything below 1:1. Just a straight up simple rule here. The attempts to reign this in to date have been overcomplicated and ineffective.

Launching a series of weak and uncoordinated attacks ought to be punished and not rewarded. That still leaves you with bombing cheese, though, but that at least can be held down to a dull roar with house rules which it seems most everybody is using now.


Its been nerfed alrdy.

1v1=2v1 should be removed and -5 to SHC morale.

If you can't win as SHC now your a newbie.



Peltonx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (6/24/2013 12:36:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: smokindave34


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov

Why not move next to D-Town and Z-Town to pin down their factories? I'm guessing some are still there on T7.


Shupov - FLaviusx is correct, the factories in D/Z town have been gone for a few turns now. There is still plenty in Kharkov/Stalino area but I expect they may be gone by the time I make it there. At least if I can threaten them Sapper may have to divert some rail resources to moving factories instead of railing troops to the front.


arm pts are window dressing and have been for 18 months. Its simply not possible to get 80+ arm pts any more.

GHC has to destroy at least 50 arm pts, but need 80 for a long run win based on arm pt crunch. Its simply not possible to destroy that many vs anything other then a complete newbie.

A 211 turn draw is only possible if GHC farms morale(41), runs during blizzard and hits allot of manpower centers. GHC has to stay on the offensive until 10/42 retaking manpower center, destoring atleast 100 SHC divisions.
Then he must change over to defensive set up by October 1942 and become a punching bag for 3 yrs.



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