RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (Full Version)

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timmyab -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:37:38 PM)

Even without the cheese I would expect a good Soviet player to be in Berlin 6 to 12 months early.
I notice SD lost 20 divisions due to ZOC locks.I'd like to see a two hex minimum move for German units for WITE2 to better model their superior tactical abilities and avoid unhistorical German pockets.
I dread to think what sort of wackiness people are going to come up with for the air game in WITW.



Flaviusx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:44:10 PM)

Actually, from what I saw of it, the WITW air model will get rid of spam bombing. It's totally different beast.

Which isn't to say that folks won't come up with totally new cheese, but at least we'll have something new to argue over.

So far as the blizzard goes, it seems Sapper has perfected some kind of crazy combination of zoc locking and hasty attacks...more spam, in other words. Reign in the logistics, tone down the morale hit, and tame big red and much of this ought to go away. The blizzard shouldn't be deciding games. It's too easy to leverage it right now, and I won't pretend otherwise. Despite MT's superb recent winter defense in his AAR.



timmyab -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:51:21 PM)

What do you think of a two hex MM for German units?I don't want to stop Soviet players having their fun in the blizzard on a smaller scale, but I think destroyed German divisions in 41 should be rarities or simply due to incompetence.



Flaviusx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:57:57 PM)

I dunno, I think the key is changing up the blizzard itself and reigning in the offensive capability of the Red Army, while not wrecking German morale quite so much. Make hedghehog defenses more possible for the Wehrmacht, too. The Red Army simply shouldn't have much long range offensive capability, it ought to be rapidly exhausting itself as it takes to the open ground and tries to bypass Axis defenses. This gets us closer to the kind of crazy front lines you saw in real life, with salients based on lines of communication and terrain features.

You can actually see a little bit of this in MT's game, which pleases me. But it's obviously extremely hard to do this with the present model. It ought to occur almost naturally, here you have to work against the grain of the system to do it and start with an extremely advantageous position as the Axis going into the winter.



SigUp -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 3:00:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Even without the cheese I would expect a good Soviet player to be in Berlin 6 to 12 months early.
I notice SD lost 20 divisions due to ZOC locks.I'd like to see a two hex minimum move for German units for WITE2 to better model their superior tactical abilities and avoid unhistorical German pockets.
I dread to think what sort of wackiness people are going to come up with for the air game in WITW.

Well, the Soviets could have ended the war in Summer 1944, had they invested the potential they (successfully) utilized in Belorussia into the area of Kovel. A drive from Kovel to Warsaw and then to the Baltic Sea could have spelled disaster for the Germans.



timmyab -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 8:17:49 PM)

Both sides made serious mistakes so I guess we'll never know for sure.
If everyone reached a consensus that the Soviets should be in Berlin a year or six months early that would be fine by me.You'd need to adjust the victory conditions accordingly though.Even as it stands now, if the Soviets take Berlin by June 45 they get a win - WHY?This should be a draw or even an Axis minor.



Flaviusx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 8:41:47 PM)

I don't buy an early Soviet victory, myself. For both political and logistical reasons. I am absolutely convinced that the game's design accelerates operational tempo in general for both sides, and once the Soviets can seize the initiative for good they will tend to get ahead of their historical timetable as a result. It's the flipside of the 1941 situation for the Germans, which is also hugely accelerated.

Game just needs to slow the hell down. More friction, please.




SigUp -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 9:40:53 PM)

I do agree that in the current engine the game is too fluid. Aside from the times of rasputitza advances can be sustained for practically infinity. Neither side is stopped by logistical using vanilla settings. With the experts in using the broken aerial resupply feature the German summer campaign of 1941 is basically a continuous advance from June to October, instead of the advance degenerating into spurts once the Germans outran their supply lines starting in July. Similarly the Soviets are never forced to halt their campaign for a few months. Another issue that prevents historical movement is the combat system that's favouring the winner. Right now the Germans won't suffer 800.000 casualties until December, and the Soviets won't have to deal with offensives running out of steam due to enormous losses.



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 10:41:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Actually, from what I saw of it, the WITW air model will get rid of spam bombing. It's totally different beast.

Which isn't to say that folks won't come up with totally new cheese, but at least we'll have something new to argue over.

So far as the blizzard goes, it seems Sapper has perfected some kind of crazy combination of zoc locking and hasty attacks...more spam, in other words. Reign in the logistics, tone down the morale hit, and tame big red and much of this ought to go away. The blizzard shouldn't be deciding games. It's too easy to leverage it right now, and I won't pretend otherwise. Despite MT's superb recent winter defense in his AAR.


I'm happy to hear this. I was concerned that under a design simlar to WITE's air war the 8th air force would be the ultimate weapon to unleash on the axis.

I like the 2 hex minimum rule for the blizzard (or any other condition for that matter). I think it would encourage axis players to fight during the blizzard without the fear of losing multiple divisions to ZOC locks from those pesky tank brigades.



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 10:45:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Mud comes soon, it will hold.

You built a lot of forts west of the Dniepr, weren't you able to hold this line during the blizzard?


I stopped pulling back when I reached my fort lines and unfortunately thats when I really got in trouble. Sapper was able to concentrate his attacks on my flanks and then send in cavalry divisions or tank brigades to lock me up. I was able to use my armor to free up some units but it wasn't until February that I could count on a combat victory from even my best units.

Sapper has learned to get the most out of every aspect of the game and I respect that however it's just not my type of game (and not because I'm getting trashed). I'd prefer to not see fantasy results from either side.



Michael T -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/14/2013 1:57:58 AM)

If this game goes thru winter 42/43 I will be curious to see if the SU bug re-appears that struck my game with Pelton and Bobo's game with Pelton. Sapper would no doubt have 100's of SU attached to Corps like we did. Is this a server game or PBEM?



STEF78 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/14/2013 2:32:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

If this game goes thru winter 42/43 I will be curious to see if the SU bug re-appears that struck my game with Pelton and Bobo's game with Pelton. Sapper would no doubt have 100's of SU attached to Corps like we did. Is this a server game or PBEM?


WITE is not designed to handle a great number of units in fight. Schascha made several tests, the max is around 34

V1.07.09– August 9, 2013
7. Rule Errata (section 15) – There are a maximum number of units that may participate in a combat. The absolute maximum is 40 units per side (including HQs, on-map and support units). The system will try to include all on-map units if possible, but as the number of units gets large (over 25-30), there is a chance that some support units will be left out of the battle even before reaching the 40 unit maximum.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/14/2013 11:49:27 PM)

I thought that the bombing of airbases had been nerfed so that it was cost prohibitive. What is Sapper doing that makes it effective? Is he taking heavy losses in doing so and just taking it?



Flaviusx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/15/2013 12:14:12 AM)

I can only assume he's sucking it up and accepting the trade off on the principle that the Soviets can absorb huge losses. And it's not just airbases he's bombing, either, sounds like he's using up every air mile he possibly can and hitting stuff left and right. Indeed, you can probably kill more enemy fighters hitting targets other than airbases as they react to your missions, run them out of air miles, and then go to town with what is left over, including hitting airbases without fighters based directly on them.

The existing air system is very spammy. Look what you can do with recon.



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/15/2013 12:31:08 AM)

Sapper has about 1,000 more planes than the Pros did at this same point in my game with them. I have about 800 less. I think the constant attacks certainly run me out of air miles. I know for a fact that the Luftwaffe does not fly any ground support during Sappers turn and I believe it is because they are out of air miles/missions.

For what it's worth I have resigned from this game with Sapper. It's dissapointing since I do enjoy the late war part of the game however I fully expect that my army (and certainly my Luftwaffe) will be ground down early in '43 and Sapper will be making a run to Berlin in late '43/early '44. Also with the frontline so close to Rumania the Rumanian army will surrender early in '43 and then things will open up fast.



loki100 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/15/2013 2:54:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I thought that the bombing of airbases had been nerfed so that it was cost prohibitive. What is Sapper doing that makes it effective? Is he taking heavy losses in doing so and just taking it?


I think you can by 1943. In effect you can trash all your on map air units and replenish from reserve, and probably do this 3-4 times so that the original set have just about recovered and been upgraded in time to be chucked back in again.

Hard work and a lot of attention to detail, but you end with masses of unused (and unusable) squadrons even after the shift to 32 and then to 40 air unit regiments.



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