RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (Full Version)

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HITMAN202 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/13/2013 11:52:19 PM)

Spent around 200 SU's (thru the first blizzard turn) to get almost all Su's (a few pioneers exception and some SU's loaded up with the German mt divs/corp) to safe haven with AG's and Armies HQ's. It's a major PITA. With a keen eye to detail all (and I mean all) AG and Army HQ's, all Luff HQ's and the key Div/Corps can be kept in in safe haven all blizzard. I was going to add up just the troop numbers (but we are really talking about equipment), but gave up after 2 minutes. Roughly each AG (the 3) have 50,000 men and 800-1000 guns each and 2 Army HQ in each AG (6 in all) have 30,000 troops and 300-400 guns each.

Now remember this was with Toe set at 55 % to start the game and was left unchanged.



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/14/2013 12:30:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Spent around 200 SU's (thru the first blizzard turn) to get almost all Su's (a few pioneers exception and some SU's loaded up with the German mt divs/corp) to safe haven with AG's and Armies HQ's. It's a major PITA. With a keen eye to detail all (and I mean all) AG and Army HQ's, all Luff HQ's and the key Div/Corps can be kept in in safe haven all blizzard. I was going to add up just the troop numbers (but we are really talking about equipment), but gave up after 2 minutes. Roughly each AG (the 3) have 50,000 men and 800-1000 guns each and 2 Army HQ in each AG (6 in all) have 30,000 troops and 300-400 guns each.

Now remember this was with Toe set at 55 % to start the game and was left unchanged.


Thanks Hitman. Next turn is the last snow turn and I'm planning on sending the Luftwaffe HQ and AG HQ back to Poland. I'm still a little reluctant to send all those SU back since at some point I would like to stop and fight. Still need to think about that one a bit......



HITMAN202 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/14/2013 12:41:09 AM)

Why go so far back ?? There are a ton (more than a few) level 4 towns that will serve the purpose, if I understand the rules correctly.



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/14/2013 12:49:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Why go so far back ?? There are a ton (more than a few) level 4 towns that will serve the purpose, if I understand the rules correctly.


You are correct. Actually any town can serve the purpose but its based on rolls IIRC. The more pops the higher the chance of it shielding the blizzard effect. Pop4 has a high chance of serving the purpose but only for 1 unit.

I would send all my superfluous HQ's from the Luftwaffe and Army back, all infantry above 85 morale, and all heavy artillery back. I would keep some flak and medium artillery and rockets as they are all great for defense come Jan/Feb. As far as the SS, remember that only Viking division remains. I plan on using my SS divisions in my current game for Blizzard as they will withdraw and come back with a fixed morale. Maybe keep the Totenkopf safe as it doesn't withdraw until Oct. I would keep most of my mech units in the cities/urban until December is over and release all but the 90+ morale units. Just my opinions.

TBH, you might actually benefit by pulling a Pelton here. Your not too far from the blizzard effect line to consider building a fort line where the Blizzard malus doesn't hit you. Yah it sucks giving up the ground but at least you'll have high morale along the front'



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/14/2013 1:51:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Why go so far back ?? There are a ton (more than a few) level 4 towns that will serve the purpose, if I understand the rules correctly.


You are correct. Actually any town can serve the purpose but its based on rolls IIRC. The more pops the higher the chance of it shielding the blizzard effect. Pop4 has a high chance of serving the purpose but only for 1 unit.

I would send all my superfluous HQ's from the Luftwaffe and Army back, all infantry above 85 morale, and all heavy artillery back. I would keep some flak and medium artillery and rockets as they are all great for defense come Jan/Feb. As far as the SS, remember that only Viking division remains. I plan on using my SS divisions in my current game for Blizzard as they will withdraw and come back with a fixed morale. Maybe keep the Totenkopf safe as it doesn't withdraw until Oct. I would keep most of my mech units in the cities/urban until December is over and release all but the 90+ morale units. Just my opinions.

TBH, you might actually benefit by pulling a Pelton here. Your not too far from the blizzard effect line to consider building a fort line where the Blizzard malus doesn't hit you. Yah it sucks giving up the ground but at least you'll have high morale along the front'


Thanks DV and Hitman (my fellow axis cohorts). I looked at the rules again and the blizzard rule for towns is that if the die roll (1-4) is equal or less than the population then there are no penalites; so Hitman you are correct that if I park a unit (it can only be one) in a town with a population of 4 I will be good. I need to take a close look at the map and see how many population 4 towns are out there.

I think my gameplan will be similar to what DV suggested. All non essential HQ go to the rear (or safe town) while the panzers go to city/urban close to the front. I'll also send my heavy artillery to safety. I've been building a defense line that I expect to reach in January. I will pull back all of December and then hopefully in January/February I can slow down the pace. Sapper has a lot of units bunched up right around Smolensk so I expect a big push in the center. There is good defensive terrain in the Minsk area so I hope to take advantage of that (another side effect of my dismal summer performance).



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/15/2013 12:12:46 AM)

Turn 25 Blizzard defense begins

AGN - I left the 232nd infantry division out too far on the last turn of snow (rookie mistake!) and Sapper ZOC locks it. One division down already..... I split that division up into regiments to try and slow Sapper down however in hindsight that may have been a poor decision as it just means more Soviet units get wins.

Other than that a one to two turn withdrawl by AGN.

[image]local://upfiles/27926/33F1881A3D5941409909997201CE41B4.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/15/2013 12:14:02 AM)

AGC

[image]local://upfiles/27926/86D0A10ED31048958CBD63192B6C5D14.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/15/2013 12:15:16 AM)

4th and 17th armies. I had a few bad rolls here so I wasn't able to pull back as much as I'd like. It may cost me a division. One advantage I still have is the rivers are not completely frozen yet.

I tried to get too cute with the 7th panzer and 20th motorized divisions last turn and they didn't make it to a city for the first blizzard turn. I stuck them in towns and hope they make their morale roll.


[image]local://upfiles/27926/96374D3E3381446FA5A6E20BFA57B6F7.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/15/2013 12:16:55 AM)

AGS

[image]local://upfiles/27926/8DCF8D5DF6CF4AD49D732D1643B79F51.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/15/2013 12:18:34 AM)

AGS - South

I stick my Rumanian mountain units and one of my mountain divisions (split into regiments) in the swamp to slow Sapper down. I don't plan on pulling these units back as they have pretty high defensive CV's in the swamps.



[image]local://upfiles/27926/2055181E70BF41E08520BB4D423789E5.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/20/2013 12:31:04 AM)

As I continue to get pounded during the blizzard I noticed that a large portion of Sapper's units have very high supply levels (soft factor is on supply level). Any ideas on how to counter this? Is this normal? My units are on rail heads and don't have nearly the supply levels the Red Army does. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong that I don't have at least as good a supply situation as the Red army.



[image]local://upfiles/27926/2F86E5BA58E64813B78C869A14DD6B26.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/20/2013 12:32:29 AM)

AGC area - same situation.



[image]local://upfiles/27926/54E88B2821BA4CDEA3E1618D47EADAEA.jpg[/image]



janh -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (7/20/2013 8:44:41 AM)

SmokinDave, you could perhaps transfer your mountain divisions to areas that are of more importance to hold, or where you have to break free some of your units there. Giving ground in the open southern fields is no big deal with the blizzard rule set. As Pelton keeps mentioning, it even favors you if you allow the Soviets to retake the Djenpr cities. You will easily find good ground for a counterattack in summer, perfect Panzer terrain, and wiping over these manpower centers twice in one game hurts the Soviet... It is here where I would amass all 4 Panzer Armies in summer.



Jagdfluger -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/12/2013 12:25:06 AM)

What happened to this game?



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/12/2013 1:13:35 AM)

It's now September '42. Sapper hammered me hard during the blizzard. I tried to pull back in an orderly fashion but constant hasty attacks and ZOC locks by cavalry divisions and tank brigades trapped 20 German infantry divisions. It was bloody. Sapper did an excellent job during the blizzard and ended up west of Minsk north of the marsh and near the Rumanian border in the south. I would have been better off pulling everyone back to Germany at the start of the blizzard but I just couldn't do it (no offense Pelton).


In March Sapper refused to give an inch and I was able to launch many succesfull attacks and start to recover my morale. In the summer I launched wave after wave of attacks for about a month (almost my entired army is now >70 morale) until my armaments bottomed out and my OOB started to fall to below the 3 million mark. I moved the frontline just under 100km east. Sapper has stated he thinks that morale is not all that important and he has constantly put 3 units in front of every one of mine regardless of the fact that they will be defeated in battle the next turn (he has been builidng rifle corps from the time they have been available). Now that he has many rifle corps it doesn't make sense to attack much - I lose more men then he does regardless of wether I win or lose the battle. The attrition losses along with his never ending bombing of my units/HQ/airbases has really drained my armaments. For the last 6 turns I have had no armaments points and I have only attacked on a limited basis. I'm losing about 10-15K men per turn just from the Red airforce - very frustrating.

I'll post some screenshots when I get the next turn. I've never dropped out of a game however I'm considering resigning this one....it's ugly!



Flaviusx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/12/2013 3:17:44 AM)

Sounds to me like Sapper has pretty much broken the air game, tbh. Another item that needs fixing up among many others. The one we've got now is a bit too freewheeling.



Michael T -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/12/2013 3:34:41 AM)

I have said this before, many times. If the Reds survive 41 and 42 with a reasonable industrial base and they havn't been pushed back to the Urals then they win. I agree with Sapper. Soviet manpower and industry is the key. Morale is secondary. As a good friend of mine once said it only takes one bullet to kill a guy no matter how good his morale is. Once the Soviet steamroller gets going it grinds all before it to dust.

All this business about flying fuel cans and what not is insignificant compared to the Red beast that can be unleashed on all but he most innovative German players.



Flaviusx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/12/2013 3:39:53 AM)

But MT, this is merely the other side of the coin of the game's too lose logistics. The big red machine, once it gets going, never ever stops. Which is, of course, quite wrong. In real life pauses had to occur, sometimes very long ones. A victorious Red Army that utterly crushed AGC in 1944 literally ran out of gas in front of Warsaw in mid summer. It didn't get started up on that part of the front again for months.

In this game, no such pause would ever occur. The advance is unrelenting. Only mud shuts down operations.



Michael T -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/12/2013 4:09:29 AM)

No arguement. The point is the logistics model cuts both ways. But it makes the Reds unstopable. The 41/42 Axis can be stopped. So I don't understand why we always hear how its so biased to the Axis when the Soviets if played nicely are pretty much unbeatable.



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:40:21 AM)

September '42 Update:

Current OOB:

[image]local://upfiles/27926/993597F4597C4AAE835D7886CB5C856D.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:41:14 AM)

Losses - yes I know the German captured number is brutal. Compliments of Sappers blizzard offensive....

[image]local://upfiles/27926/FF2747525FE24CA59E7A86EAE11FC189.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:44:54 AM)

Production:

I haven't had an armament point in 3 months. I've moved some of my high build cost artillery back to OKH to try and lessen the drain on my armaments. Sapper launches wave after wave of air attacks (airbase and ground attack). This turn I lost 342 arty units to air attacks and 377 to ground combat. I'd really like to be attacking more right now but it only serves to lower my OOB more each turn. I'm going to stick around in this game until the start of '43 to see what effect my increased armaments multiplier will have on things. Maybe I'll be able to attack more at that point.

The other effect of the constant air attacks is that my Luftwaffe does not engage in any ground support during the Soviet turn. I'll never start another game without some house rule regarding bombing of airbases!

[image]local://upfiles/27926/15DDD5979ECE42568E0D77855FBEFCF1.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:47:32 AM)

AGN

[image]local://upfiles/27926/1402F0FFF44D45BD952F222310E44C8D.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:47:55 AM)

AGC - thats Minsk to the east (Minsk!!!!)

[image]local://upfiles/27926/2101CBDB93564FA58FD9FAFAF963ED99.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:49:16 AM)

17th and 6th armies: Sapper is dangerously close breaking through to an area where I have no forts. I have a replacement panzer division arriving next turn and it will be sent to this area.



[image]local://upfiles/27926/962B0944CA8644CAA7D7B5F75AE29BF1.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:51:01 AM)

Rumanian border

[image]local://upfiles/27926/B8F70EE1BA66479E9DFFE4AC07CCB4F6.jpg[/image]



timmyab -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 10:42:17 AM)

Wow this looks bad.
It's no disgrace though, the Soviet side is way overpowered starting from the first blizzard.It's difficult to say for certain but I'd say the game's timeline is off by up to a year, maybe six months at best.Basically German players should be looking to try and survive until mid to late 44, anything after that is a bonus.



STEF78 -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 11:11:06 AM)

Mud comes soon, it will hold.

You built a lot of forts west of the Dniepr, weren't you able to hold this line during the blizzard?



Flaviusx -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 11:49:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Wow this looks bad.
It's no disgrace though, the Soviet side is way overpowered starting from the first blizzard.It's difficult to say for certain but I'd say the game's timeline is off by up to a year, maybe six months at best.Basically German players should be looking to try and survive until mid to late 44, anything after that is a bonus.


Leaving aside the usual blizzard problems and logistical issues, I think Sapper broke the airgame on this one. The Luftwaffe is gone and the Red Air Force is doing whatever it wants to do. 10-15k losses from the air a turn is insane.

Basically every possible game mechanic that could be abused got abused.




SigUp -> RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) (8/13/2013 12:24:52 PM)

Yes, the airgame is bad in WITE. The Red Airforce just balloons after the first month or so. Compared with the aircraft figures in the 42, 43 and 44 scenario I have the feeling that the average Soviet player possesses twice that number. Issue seems to be that it is impossible for the Germans to shoot down that many Soviet planes (or the Soviets losing that many). As far as I know the Red Airforce lost some 100.000 planes from 41 to 45. But by the looks of it WITW will make a significant step forward in this regard.



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