RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (Full Version)

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Flaviusx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 4:37:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

I continue to think that whatever change we recommend, it should be validated by extensive playtest using the Road to scenarios. These are the closest thing we have to validating game mechanics against historical ground truth.

For example, the Lvov opening breaks RtK & RtD even with the morale boost. Is RtL still an easy German win when it was not historically? You might need to modify the AGN and AGC scenarios to put Stavka on-map.

Just asking the devs to "fix" one thing with these anecdotal stories is, IMHO, fruitless.


This morale fix was never extensively playtested. The whole point of this exercise is to revert the game to something like what it was prior to it.

The Road To Scenarios, which actually work very well as far as they go, do not produce results that can be meaningfully applied to a campaign game. Simply put, people do stuff in campaign games they cannot do in scenarios. You have to compare apples to apples.

I happen to think the campaign game in 41 is completely broken quite aside from this morale business, btw. It was broken before it. It's broken now. It will remain broken even if we fix this morale mess. Quite frankly, those Road to Scenarios you point at do a much better job at recreating history than the campaign game can.



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 5:59:46 AM)

Interesting to look at the Moscow 41-42 Scenario in Lost battles. Not sure how it would be possible for a campaign game to get to the same morale levels for both sides at the same point in time as Moscow 41-42 starts. Lots of Reds at around 35-40 and lots of German Pz's 90 plus. So we know what the designers would like to see at Sept 41 but they offer no way for a CG to get there! [:D]



821Bobo -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 8:01:16 AM)

I have recently started game as Soviet. Screenshots are from T2 and T3. Most of the divisions have CV 2 at least. I have problem to find CV 1 division.


Turn 2
[image]http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/9494/eokr.jpg[/image]

Turn 3
[image]http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1363/2g2w.jpg[/image]



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 8:08:12 AM)

It's not only the CV... just look at the MP values. Rifle Divisions with 14 or 16 MP's are even more valuable than divisions with 3-4 CV, not to mention the somewhat cheaper costs to move through enemy held hexes...



morvael -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 8:17:11 AM)

Please note that anything from 1.1 to 1.9 becomes 2 in CR, because it uses different rounding. Most 2s will be 1s on the map.



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 8:23:05 AM)

One really need only to look at the morale levels [8|]



morvael -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 8:28:39 AM)

Here are my forces from the start of turn 3 (started last September, on 1.6.19):

[image]local://upfiles/22250/DF588885B6084B9E9EA72AD662B09C66.jpg[/image]



morvael -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 8:29:48 AM)

Some 50+ were always there, even without the patch.

[image]local://upfiles/22250/F8BE9249F0F04864B72F3002A3AC6C4A.jpg[/image]



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 10:15:28 AM)

Yes this problem has only surfaced recently, but it seems it has been possible for some time. However the ability to raise Soviet morale to absurd levels in a matter of 3 to 4 turns is a fact.



821Bobo -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 10:39:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Please note that anything from 1.1 to 1.9 becomes 2 in CR, because it uses different rounding. Most 2s will be 1s on the map.


Same game, turn 2. Doesn't look like CV1 on map.

[image]http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2084/ci0q.jpg[/image]



Walloc -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 11:23:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Yes this problem has only surfaced recently, but it seems it has been possible for some time. However the ability to raise Soviet morale to absurd levels in a matter of 3 to 4 turns is a fact.



quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Same game, turn 2. Doesn't look like CV1 on map.


Not to say there isnt a problem and with the bugfix/moral change stuff hasnt changed, but at leased come up with the right/better examples. SW front has since day 1 of this game had several units at and around 50+ moral. This is nothing new.
The new, is that what was pre the bugfix moral 30-40/low40ies range units that toke significantly longer and in many cases therefor was not at all possible vs a remotely competent german player to get too or near moral 50. That is now much more possible and in cases of units starting far behind the front lines near "automatic", if ppl just set them on refit.

As said the 50+ moral units in SW front is not a new or even a recent thing.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Flaviusx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 11:32:39 AM)

Yeah, you need to leave out SW Front here guys, it's always clocked in high.



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 11:36:29 AM)

Yes the units to run a simple test on are the rear area Stavka ID. They go from 35ish to 50ish in 3 to 4 turns.



821Bobo -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/1/2013 12:00:08 PM)

I know that SW front is starting with some decent units however I didn't have other screenshot. At least 3 SW rifle divisions and all 3 S front rifle divisions(from the screenshot) are from STAVKA reserves.
When I come back home, I will post landbridge/Dneper line. The CVs there are high too.



Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/2/2013 12:51:58 AM)

Lets get one thing clear atleast.

National Morale is not fixed.

NM for most Russian, Romanian, Hun and Italian units is 50. Always has been.

Rule 9.1.1

If a units morale is below 50, and it is 10 or more hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.

Morale is still, bugged because of a piss poor design that was not play tested.

And we can expect more PP design issues being part of WitW unless poeple that are not part of the good old boys club being testers before release.

If not guys like me will find loops in the air system/logistics system and combat system by design or just plain exploits.







821Bobo -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/2/2013 6:24:38 PM)

The promised Dneper line. Turn 3 and decent CVs like in the south.

[image]http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6130/xdon.jpg[/image]



morvael -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/2/2013 8:14:23 PM)

Only slightly better to what I had on 1.6.19.

I think 2by3 will not make any changes here, as there seems not be be a clear consensus of how much the new morale rule helps the Soviets. Certainly all these patches help the Germans too (fixed morale for rebuilt units, faster morale regain after defeats helping in '43-'45, stronger minor allies).

For me the game can't center around '41 only, it must provide good play in later years as well, and those later years are more broken than '41... In my game there was no major Axis offensive in '42 only steady and slow grinding forward. For sure this requires changes that are out of reach in this iteration of the game (victory conditions to push Russian to the aggressive side, forcing them to bleed and help the Germans that way), which makes me a bit sad as most probably we are still several years from WitE 2 now, which (I hope) will address that, at least will try to. It's ok with me if the Axis can't get Leningrad and Moscow in '41, capturing even one of those targets should be recognized as a major success. I miss the Caucasus and back in '42 more than that.



Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/3/2013 9:31:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Only slightly better to what I had on 1.6.19.

I think 2by3 will not make any changes here, as there seems not be be a clear consensus of how much the new morale rule helps the Soviets. Certainly all these patches help the Germans too (fixed morale for rebuilt units, faster morale regain after defeats helping in '43-'45, stronger minor allies).

For me the game can't center around '41 only, it must provide good play in later years as well, and those later years are more broken than '41... In my game there was no major Axis offensive in '42 only steady and slow grinding forward. For sure this requires changes that are out of reach in this iteration of the game (victory conditions to push Russian to the aggressive side, forcing them to bleed and help the Germans that way), which makes me a bit sad as most probably we are still several years from WitE 2 now, which (I hope) will address that, at least will try to. It's ok with me if the Axis can't get Leningrad and Moscow in '41, capturing even one of those targets should be recognized as a major success. I miss the Caucasus and back in '42 more than that.


Unless the GHC player does the huge Lvov pocket and sends 1 or 2 panzer divisions by rail to Romania to do the follow up pocket turn 3 the GHC will have a below average 1941, which means SHC is grinding forward in mid to late 42 and a SHC victory late 44 or early 45.

As we have seen in most AAR's post fuel nerfs, most game end with GHC resigning in late 41 or early 42.

There is only a handful of GHC players that have gotten draws or wins and now with MT leaving the game there is one less.



Denniss -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/3/2013 2:27:59 PM)

Fixes needed:
1) Fix finnish national morale to be 80 like stated in manual and in WitW (currently 70 for whatever reason).
2) Set soviet national morale back to 45 throughout 41 with a drop to 44 in Dec (or 44 throughout 41)
3) Changes to rule 9.1.1:
3a) Morale gain base value should be changed to 45 for all nations, everything else could be handled by the national morale gain.
3b) The +10 hexes gain may be disabled for the Soviets for most time of 41.
3c) The 10% of national morale gain may be a tad too high.
3d) Good supply/support an morale less than 75 - should this rule apply to Soviets in 41?



janh -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/3/2013 4:59:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
As we have seen in most AAR's post fuel nerfs, most game end with GHC resigning in late 41 or early 42.


Pelton, would you mind prepping a list with links to the AARs to count them propper? I tried to briefly screen the AAR section and cannot validate this at all. Even Terje is still hanging in his game, and many AAR are in for the long run now (quite contrary to the state about 1 year ago).
If at all there is a slightly increased number of games that end in early or mid 42 in Axis favor, as well as a number of games that end mid 43 to early 44 where the Soviet success has become predicable. Yet I do not see the huge number of Axis AARs that fail early or are given up early anymore that there used to be. Compared to that things are fairly even nowadays, don't you think?



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/3/2013 10:29:46 PM)

Denniss I think you are on the right track.



terje439 -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/6/2013 10:36:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
Even Terje is still hanging in his game


I think counting me in this ratio is not correct as I am simply too stubborn to accept a defeat until virtual Adolf tries out his cyanide and lead diet [:D]


Terje



matt.buttsworth -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/6/2013 10:47:38 AM)

Can someone tell me with which patch the morale went awry and soviet morale started to go up too quickly.
If someone can tell me that then I will play the patch before that.

All advice appreciated.

Matthew



Walloc -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/6/2013 5:22:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: matt.buttsworth

If someone can tell me that then I will play the patch before that.

All advice appreciated.

Matthew



Not sure that u are still looking for this considering the chat in other threads, but if so.

V1.07.06– April 12, 2013

• New Features and Rule Changes

• Bug Fixes

1. Fixed a bug that prevented a part of rule 9.1.1 from functioning correctly. Units that were below their national morale were not getting the chance to gain morale simply due to the fact that they were below the national morale. Now they get the chance, and if they go up (they must pass various checks), they will receive an increase of die(10% of their national morale), but not to exceed the national morale.


quote:

ORIGINAL: matt.buttsworth

Can someone tell me with which patch the morale went awry and soviet morale started to go up too quickly.
Matthew



Btw doesnt only russian concern moral actually it came about in a way that have complained about for a long time that it was hard to get german units up between 50 and NM moral lvls. A bug was found, game differed noticebly from what the manual said on this and was corrected. So for example now destroyed german divs can realisticly get back up to NM levels. Also the same that works and gets problematic for the russians works for axis minors. Getting 35 NM rumenians to 50 moral now is np at all. A rumenian 50exp/moral(getting 50exp isnt as easy as moral is, but it certainly makes it possible) has twice the CV of an 35/35 one.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/6/2013 11:00:54 PM)

Issue's like this have been going on from release.

Most of the time when a player points out something is not working as designed 2by3 comes back with a its working as designed.

Then finally after weeks or months or in this cases YEARS the person that was called a moron by all is proven right with the help of other players.

The issue is finally fixed, but because it was never tested during beta it causes other issues to unbalance the game.

Morale is 90% of this game, so one little tweak can have allot of huge unexpected side effects.

The best fix is GHC +5 SHC -5, until 2by3 lowers the hard coded 10 hexes from the front morale to 50 rule down to 45.

SHC and axis minor NM will then be 45. NM still will not be working as designed (aka rule book) but the game should be as balanced as its going to get.



Flaviusx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/6/2013 11:28:37 PM)

Here's what's going to happen.

Everybody is going to start doing this preposterous Romania opening and throttling the Sovs and everybody will be peachy keen.

On reflection, I withdraw my support for this change, not because I disagree with it, but because it cannot be done in a vacuum. The outrage here is in fact highly selective and myopic.

1941 is broken all right. Multiple fractures.



carlkay58 -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 12:16:54 AM)

I am coming of the opinion that, if we only got one fix, I would prefer to see 41 Winter fixed - or at least returned to previous - rather than the NM.



samthesham -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 8:47:47 AM)

First, I want to say how terrific I think this game is. There was just a whole lot of incredible design in this game. IMHO the game changed this last rev to make the Russians to strong, and I noticed the change.

Regarding National Morale: Could you not make each nation's NM an adjustable value during scenario setup, which could also be used to handicap the computer or players of unequal experience. Except for the fact that the game appears to make NM of <50 irrelevant (units going to 50 during rest anyway) it would be a way to fix quicker w/o the need to testing for balance.

Just a thought.






Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 12:56:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Here's what's going to happen.

Everybody is going to start doing this preposterous Romania opening and throttling the Sovs and everybody will be peachy keen.

On reflection, I withdraw my support for this change, not because I disagree with it, but because it cannot be done in a vacuum. The outrage here is in fact highly selective and myopic.

1941 is broken all right. Multiple fractures.


Sapper and Bomazz did this opening Flaviusx and they both lost.

Only MT and myself are able to win.

You going to make sure its impossible for GHC to win a game?

All the rest of the games SHC is going over to offensive in summer of 1942, completely unhistorical. Look at how few KIA Russians there are even with MT's opening vs Kamil.

The ONLY chance at pushing the game forward as GHC is a larger then life Lvov opening.





Flaviusx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 2:01:34 PM)

Pelton, I am not interested in "winning" the game. I am interested in making this into something resembling the actual historical war in the east. What it is now, is a fantasy on a number of levels. It's profoundly unsatisfying.

I can't play 1941 anymore. It just stops being something I can believe in on turn 1. So for me all this stuff about Soviet morale being too high is incredibly myopic. There's a whole forest of issues out there, and here we have a bunch of German players finding the biggest redwood to pee on.




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