RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (Full Version)

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PastrySquirrel -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 2:31:28 PM)

I think most of us would be pleased with a more realistic op tempo, some sort of political conditions more reflective of reality and other changes to make the game more historically plausible if not necessarily accurate per se. But that's a very tall order which is unlikely to be fulfilled in this iteration of WitE. Given that, I would be happy to have game that is merely balanced and enjoyable to play competitively without being forced to resort to loads of house rules or cumbersome morale bonuses and penalties. And I say that as someone who gave the Germans a 5% boost in my latest server game. (I was too chicken to reduce my own Soviet morale by 5% :( )



mmarquo -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 3:07:28 PM)

Pelton reflects:

[/quote]

Only MT and myself are able to win.

[/quote]

Where is he trolling for opponents? Where did he find the opponents for his last several AARs?

No disrespect to Griefhead and MatsuHiroshi; they may be the best players in the world but they do not post much. Maybe the silent, deadly types?

[8|]



Shupov -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 3:09:02 PM)

Here is another data point - Saper (Axis) vs. Shupov (Soviet)with new opening but no German rail into Romania:

Start of 1941 Blizzard
Germans doing better than historical - Moscow holds but Leningrad and Rostov taken. Voronezh taken on last turn before blizzard.
3.0 Million casualties (1.86 Million captured) to 465 K for Germans
Soviet strength at 5.48 Million
Armament production at 61,000
No house rules
Non-Random weather

Germans will undoubtedly have a strong 1942 offensive.



mmarquo -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 3:19:19 PM)

Flaviusx reflects: "and here we have a bunch of German players finding the biggest redwood to pee on."

They pee in downtown Leningrad/Rostov and in the outskirts of Stalingrad before winter, 1941 and yet they moan like men struggling with the dysuria of gonorrhea.

[:-]



Shupov -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 3:20:27 PM)

quote:

Sapper and Bomazz did this opening Flaviusx and they both lost.


Pelton,

I'm not aware Saper lost as Axis with this opening. I know of two games, one against TDV where he won after inflicting 4.5 million Soviet losses before blizzard and my own which is still in progress.



Ron -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 3:52:04 PM)

Purely anecdotal so take it for what it's worth. I dropped the game quite some time ago as the 'warts' were too many to overlook. However, a long time opponent talked me into buying the Lost Battles expansion and we started a new GC again. Neither one of us are great players though I am usually the stronger in most instances. Our previous game ended mid-late '42 as I recall due to mutual real life constraints etc, the situation did not favour either side at the time with the Germans only capturing Leningrad out of the big three.

As the Germans in the latest game, I knew something was up by about turn 3 as the Russian defenders were considerably more resiliant than I remembered, requiring in many cases deliberate attacks to displace. The Russian ant units previously had a tendency to retreat and not rout, but now it seemed most units were simply not routing. By turn 8, when we put it on hold and likely to be abandoned, I had run into a wall of high CV Russian defenders pretty much all along the front. What's worse this early, and really too much, are the Russian Reserve activations which require a huge German committiment to overcome, if at all. The thing is this is probably the tipping point to the game as we both know the Russian will only continue to get more numerous, and stronger and stronger. No need to even worry about the 'horrendous' Blizzard rules to come!

I did read the Readme and changes, but the significance of the morale changes did not really sink in until playing with them. The game always slightly favored the Russians in many aspects but this is over the top imo and is to the detriment of any head-head play unless the German is a master player versus a less experienced Russian. I don't regret the money spent though I do the time invested. It seems this games is a design in conflict with so many questionable, untested and unfinished aspects. Oh well.



PastrySquirrel -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 4:49:07 PM)

I'm currently facing dik41 & waiting for the final snow turn. He's captured Leningrad through brute force and a couple of mistakes on my part, but has only threatened D&Z towns during the recent snow. The Dniepr line held a very long time until AG South crossed it and punched north instead of east. 4-5 mobile divisions are cut off and probably doomed after the snow push on D&Z. He controls Kharkov and has bulled his way forward within 10 hexes of Moscow, but now the blizzard hits.

He's played pretty conservatively, going mostly for big, slow encircling punches rather than quick jabs. While easy to escape, that has served to grind down many of my defending divisions, but after a standard Lvov turn 1 he has only been able to isolate and destroy about three armies worth of troops, almost all in Leningrad. For the most part I've been able to roll with his punches, although I've felt a bit panicked at times having to shovel reserves into the front lines as fast as they become available. I don't have as much of a hammer ready for the blizzard as I'd like, but I do have 6 million men at the end of Nov. '41. GHC's grinding offensive has also worn down their panzers brutally; many are 7-8 CV shells of their former selves.

It seems that unless the Germans can severely unbalance the Russians from the very beginning and maintain so much pressure that they're unable to ever develop a proper defense in depth, the morale results in a '42 style slugfest in '41.



Aurelian -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 6:46:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Flaviusx reflects: "and here we have a bunch of German players finding the biggest redwood to pee on."

They pee in downtown Leningrad/Rostov and in the outskirts of Stalingrad before winter, 1941 and yet they moan like men struggling with the dysuria of gonorrhea.

[:-]


Shhhhhh. No facts please.



morvael -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/7/2013 7:13:00 PM)

As I said earlier, unrealistic '42 can't be compensated by uber '41.



Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 1:27:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, I am not interested in "winning" the game. I am interested in making this into something resembling the actual historical war in the east. What it is now, is a fantasy on a number of levels. It's profoundly unsatisfying.

I can't play 1941 anymore. It just stops being something I can believe in on turn 1. So for me all this stuff about Soviet morale being too high is incredibly myopic. There's a whole forest of issues out there, and here we have a bunch of German players finding the biggest redwood to pee on.




You been peeing on a redwood yourself, just on the other side of the tree.

Pot calling the kettle black again is nothing new.



Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 1:34:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov

quote:

Sapper and Bomazz did this opening Flaviusx and they both lost.


Pelton,

I'm not aware Saper lost as Axis with this opening. I know of two games, one against TDV where he won after inflicting 4.5 million Soviet losses before blizzard and my own which is still in progress.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3207771

2 times by sappers first post.



Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 1:45:33 AM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pelton reflects:



Only MT and myself are able to win.



Where is he trolling for opponents? Where did he find the opponents for his last several AARs?

No disrespect to Griefhead and MatsuHiroshi; they may be the best players in the world but they do not post much. Maybe the silent, deadly types?

[8|]

quote:




And you have played who in the last 12 months?

Like Flaviusx all talk?

How do you know so much when you are only running your mouth?

I did not troll for anyone. 2 asked to play me because they are bored of winning so easly as SHC.






Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 2:24:48 AM)

Flavius you might think the game is crap but lots of people don't think its too bad. All it needs is some tweaks to keep it going till WITE 2.0 comes along. Failing that at least we can adjust the morale settings ourselves. But an official fix would be nice. Personally I think day by day less players will be willing to play as German with the stock morale settings. IMO the stock morale settings equate to an 'I win' button for Russia as it stands.

(NB my opinions are based on games between evenly matched players)



Flaviusx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 6:12:42 AM)

I don't think the game is crap, except for for PBEM in 1941. It's still very playable for other things and for solo.

But the 1941 campaign game went off the rails a long time ago. Nor do I see it being susceptible to tweaks. It needs a fresh start.



JamesM -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 8:26:32 AM)

So the probability is that we will have to wait until WitE 2 to have this issue resolved?



elmo3 -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 11:58:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jamesm

So the probability is that we will have to wait until WitE 2 to have this issue resolved?


Not necessarily. See Joel's post on page 1. Nothing will happen in July due to other commitments but if people come to a consensus here and there is an easy fix then it will be addressed long before WitE 2.

Edit - We're talking about Soviet morale only here; not other issues like the Lvov pocket, Soviet players running away, blizzard effects, etc.



carlkay58 -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 2:54:42 PM)

So to bring this discussion back to focus we are talking about the change in formula based in:

Rule 9.1.1

If a units morale is below 50, and it is 10 or more hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.

We wish to change the formula so it is not set at 50 but rather:

1) National Morale for the unit

- or -

2) 50 or National Morale for the unit, whichever is least.

The current formula makes the National Morale = 50 for all purposes if National Morale is < 50. This effects the Axis Allies and Soviet Union.

Option 1 would make it easier for nations with National Morale > 50 recover morale if it drops under NM. This will allow ALL nations to have their units recover to NM.

Option 2 would make 50 the maximum of fast recovery and if your NM > 50 then you have a slow time to raise it up to NM. This would require more time for nations with high NM to reach their NM, and in some cases probably not easily.

Note that these options and 9.1.1 ONLY cover units that are more than 10 hexes away from the enemy - in other words units that are in strategic reserve for training and rebuilding.



Walloc -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 3:38:21 PM)

To add to Carl. As such ur correct but there is more to it then that as it is currently, only looking at russian side for first part of discussion.
AS NM is 50 from starters for russian and dropping 1 per month side u can atm get to near 50 fast as per the bugfixed moral gain rules within 10 hexes. Only changing the beyond 10 hex rules wont change much any thing unless u also lower NM.

But as u say less u also do some thing too the beyond 10 hex rule(9.1.1), lets say we set NM at 45, it will still get to 45 fast as per post bugfix rules(its teh same rules that allow german units to get up to 70 NM fast). As i see if u dont change the 9.1.1 rule is just a question of getting to 45 possibly within 10 hexes and then spend 2 turns on refit beyond 10 hexes per 9.1.1 to get to 50. Ofc this solution is harder than now, but only marginally so depending on skill on german side.

So yes. As u say some rules applying to both sides limiting both axis minors and rusian side is in order in regards to 9.1.1. U just cant IMO seperate the 2 issues. Changing 9.1.1 has to be done in conjunction with what to do with NM in 1941 for russians and how do u want the NM to go up from 1941 on and how do the +10 NM for guards figur in. If NM is to be the "new" limit. As a change 9.1.1 will impact on that, if u compare to how its been so far. No need for half solutions IMO, these things interact.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Blubel -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 3:39:08 PM)

I would be for the second option provided by carlkay and raising the hex minimum to at least 20. Otherwise it is not your strategic reserve but your third line of defence.
Or delete the rule altogether. I was never quite sure what it was supposed to represent in real life. After all, you would think that the NM was what the nation was able to achieve with training. If you want more, you would have to get combat experience.



timmyab -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 3:43:29 PM)

Option 1 is fine.
I like the idea of being able to train units up above NM but the rules need reworking if they're going to make any sense.
I'd make it that all units can train up to NM no problem, but as a unit goes above NM it gets progressively more difficult so that five points above NM would take months to build.
On the whole it's probably simpler to just do away with training above NM, there's enough stuff to worry about already.



morvael -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 3:56:06 PM)

- join 1st and 2nd bullet of 9.1.1 into a single rule (require refit), use NM as reference level
- in the 3rd bullet of 9.1.1 increase the chance to gain up to 10% of NM from current 15% to 100%, but require being on refit and more than 20 hexes to nearest supplied enemy unit
- in the 4th bullet of 9.1.1 use NM as the reference value
- start with Soviet National Morale of 46, drop to 40 by December '41, stay at 40 througout first quarter of '42, increase to 45 in the second and third quarter, stay at 45 until the end of the year.
- bump Rumania and Italy to 40, Hungary and Slovakia to 45



Shupov -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 4:18:12 PM)

Thanks for the summary Carl!

Option 1 works for me, but I would also like to see NM tied to VP's in a way that penalizes running away and rewards aggressive play.



Shupov -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 4:42:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov

quote:

Sapper and Bomazz did this opening Flaviusx and they both lost.


Pelton,

I'm not aware Saper lost as Axis with this opening. I know of two games, one against TDV where he won after inflicting 4.5 million Soviet losses before blizzard and my own which is still in progress.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3207771

2 times by sappers first post.



Pelton,

That is incorrect. Your link points to games started in 2012, before the new opening.

The new opening can be recognized by Germans crossing the Sluch on T1 AND most of Southern Front still frozen on the Romanian frontier. It is NOT the tired old standard Lvov shown in your link. The powerful Soviet armored divisions near Rovno are pocketed on T1 but the massive Southwest Front encirclement isn't completed until T3 near Kishinev. The picture at the end of T1 below shows I was able to break the pocket but it was reformed and all units were lost.

Note Saper's opening does not include Michael T's variant of railing German panzers through Romania.

[image]local://upfiles/10847/C8A085DC5C3F4EC8B2E1B951C382E197.jpg[/image]



janh -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 4:59:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blubel
I would be for the second option provided by carlkay and raising the hex minimum to at least 20. Otherwise it is not your strategic reserve but your third line of defence.
Or delete the rule altogether. I was never quite sure what it was supposed to represent in real life. After all, you would think that the NM was what the nation was able to achieve with training. If you want more, you would have to get combat experience.


+1

I am fully with this one. If any changes are to be made, increase the distance for the "rear area" to something like 20, and tie it to (NM min 50). Or tie it to (NM min 45) for Reds and (NM min 50) for the rest. I think allowing it to recover purely to NM would make no sense at all since National Moral represents something more like "proficiency" as Joel said earlier. And any proficiency higher than 50 I read as trained and combat experienced, contrary to below 50. Allowing the rebuilt Germans to get back to NM=75 simply with training would not make sense, they also should need combat to improve past the basic training level.

I am not sure that toning the morale down per se helps the game, or is even needed since the Axis without that fix usually got well past historical averages, but apparently these 5 points difference have an enormous effect since other critical thresholds are crossed. It probably won't hurt in the sense that the 41 part gets much more incredible, so what.



Walloc -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 6:13:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
- start with Soviet National Morale of 46, drop to 40 by December '41, stay at 40 througout first quarter of '42, increase to 45 in the second and third quarter, stay at 45 until the end of the year.
- bump Rumania and Italy to 40, Hungary and Slovakia to 45


As there is a big difference between 45 and 50 there is between 45 and 40. In effect going from 50 to 40 will make a bigger difference than i think ppl think. I would prolly wana test 40 quite a bit before going there.

I know its based on the pattern of the current rules, but it would for example mean that the on map units that start on map and doesnt get to be surronded can get 45ish and can keep that less they lose battles, where as unit arriving later in nov-dec that is suppose to be the strike force for any blizzard counterattack will be limited to 40-41 moral/exp. Just note there is a hell of alot of difference between CV of a 50 moral start OOB 17k man russian div and a moral 40 september OOB 12k man russian div. 5k men in difference plus up too a 50/50 vs a 40/40 is 25% vs 16% CV modifier. Difference between going from 16% and 25% is nearly 60% difference in CV. Not to speak of the combat engine and teh lesser number of elements in a sep 41 OOB div.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Flaviusx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 6:27:22 PM)

Carl, you are being too constructive here.

The proper response to this nonsense is to go on strike, not to replace the new broken with the old broken. Just say no. There are so many things wrong that it's pointless to cherry pick here and look for a chimerical easy and quick fix. None exists.

Only a comprehensive do over is going to get it right now. No such thing is forthcoming until WITE2.










Blubel -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 8:46:44 PM)

Flavius, I think you are wrong here. While I think you are completly right that the game needs (and will hopefully get) a do over, I think that this problem will help a lot.
Basically, while wrong in many parts, I found the game enjoyable for both sides before the fix. Now it is way to easy for the Soviets and way to hard for the Axis.



morvael -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 9:07:00 PM)

By exporting a few variables to a text file that would allow us tweak NM levels, morale rule parameters, first winter parameters, supply penalites and FBD speed, I think 2by3 would give us enough tools to be happy and let us tinker with WitE until WitE 2.0 launch day. It's impossible to get this right and properly balanced by just one super-heated forum discussion. I believe that FBD speed should be reduced and supply penalties increased in lieu of what can't be done with the system - that is representing low capacity of captured rail network (including lack of rolling stock) to get all those supplies in place. That should be the main slowing factor of German advance in '41. Their strength (and relative strength over Soviets) should remain strong enough for a good '42 push, albeit vehicles should be lacking requiring to put half of the front to static mode to retain mobility of the other half. First Winter should be mitigated, as advancing all along the front 10-20 hexes wasn't something I enjoyed as Soviet player (in terms of plausibility). Impact of winning and losing in combat on morale should be reduced, to not allow a closed circle of winning (usually attacking) units getting stronger with every won combat and losing units getting weaker. Currently my stacks end with higher CV after combat than they began with (even with high fatigue and casualties) because of morale change impact. Combats without rout or shatter or surrender should not trigger morale changes for either side. This would at least a little help to make the Soviets fight, trading blood for time.



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 10:06:48 PM)

May I remind people this thread is about Soviet morale problems in 1941. Please let the people interested in addressing that do so. If you have other issues you would like to raise please do so in another thread.

I would like to see Soviet morale in 1941 somewhere around 45. And the only way to get above it is thru winning battles. Also to get units that start at ~30-35 to 45 should take longer than 3 turns.

I am happy to let the 2by3 people figure the best approach to that aim.



Walloc -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/8/2013 11:00:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Also to get units that start at ~30-35 to 45 should take longer than 3 turns.



In the case of that then u will need to roll back the moral fix in 1.07.06 or alter the fix. Even with 45 NM u can gain up too 4/5 per turn (10%, dunno if its rounded up or down) per turn. Including what it does to help axis destroyed units regain its moral up to NM. Less u make a change to the rule as intended.

Personally i dont mind some reduction in axis ops tempo to what was possible pre the bug fix and actually have to fight some times. While getting this balance is difficult especially with the different player skills that is bound to be seen. I dont mind as much the rule as intended if the NM is the limit and not 50 plus finding the "right" the NM level. I would have it go up from start or flatline in 41 rather than start high and go lower.


• Bug Fixes

1. Fixed a bug that prevented a part of rule 9.1.1 from functioning correctly. Units that were below their national morale were not getting the chance to gain morale simply due to the fact that they were below the national morale. Now they get the chance, and if they go up (they must pass various checks), they will receive an increase of die(10% of their national morale), but not to exceed the national morale.


Kind regards,

Rasmus



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