Super Americans in SPWAW 4.5 (Full Version)

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gdrobinson -> Super Americans in SPWAW 4.5 (2/23/2001 9:59:00 AM)

I just loaded version 4.5 and played my son (Americans) and myself as the German in 6-1943. After being killed the first time, we played again and this time I carefully noted the following: I counted a Wolverine taking 10 (!) defensive shots after taking 4 offensive shots. It withstood an assult from a Pz-IV, flame tank, then engineers and SS infantry with no appearent suppression before a third infantry squad finally destroyed him. I then took a saved game and moved a sherman 14 hexes through a field of rifle squads taking rifle gernade hits every square. At the end of the move the sherman arrived to without any suppression and no loss of shots from movement. My question is simple: What is up with the American OOB? Have they been granted godlike powers? In previous versions it was very dificult for the Americans to win a meeting-engagement. I know Wild Bill loves the Americans but..... Am I nuts or am I the only guy to notice this?



USMCGrunt -> (2/23/2001 10:25:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by gdrobinson: I just loaded version 4.5 and played my son (Americans) and myself as the German in 6-1943. After being killed the first time, we played again and this time I carefully noted the following: I counted a Wolverine taking 10 (!) defensive shots after taking 4 offensive shots. It withstood an assult from a Pz-IV, flame tank, then engineers and SS infantry with no appearent suppression before a third infantry squad finally destroyed him. I then took a saved game and moved a sherman 14 hexes through a field of rifle squads taking rifle gernade hits every square. At the end of the move the sherman arrived to without any suppression and no loss of shots from movement. My question is simple: What is up with the American OOB? Have they been granted godlike powers? In previous versions it was very dificult for the Americans to win a meeting-engagement. I know Wild Bill loves the Americans but..... Am I nuts or am I the only guy to notice this?
gd, You might want to check your sons preferences settings. I have the feeling they may have been reset a bit. ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.



Dagobert -> (2/23/2001 11:55:00 AM)

It's gotta be something like that. I'm deep into Utah to the Rhine and I count it a lucky day when the Wolverines are the only armor that gets waxed. And I can't count the Shermans I've lost to German infantry AT weapons and engineers.



Warhorse -> (2/23/2001 9:28:00 PM)

Heh, heh, ya, sounds like a 250 setting to me!!! ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue



skukko -> (2/23/2001 11:56:00 PM)

yeah, 250 troop quality [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] every infantry squad in game runs after it has received enough fire, except japs... Wolvies have big gun but no armor, they should get immo and hatches closed/buttoned with 42MG. After that they are easy to destroy with stielgranades. mosh



DoubleDeuce -> (2/24/2001 1:53:00 AM)

I need some Wolverines and Shermans like that. Mine are currently being hammered by the germans in a 44 PBEM battle.



BruceAZ -> (2/24/2001 7:33:00 AM)

[Check your son's settings as this a 250 issue. Or maybe he is getting back at you for reducing his allowance? Bruce Semper Fi ]Originally posted by gdrobinson: I just loaded version 4.5 and played my son (Americans) and myself as the German in 6-1943. After being killed the first time, we played again and this time I carefully noted the following: I counted a Wolverine taking 10 (!) defensive shots after taking 4 offensive shots. It withstood an assult from a Pz-IV, flame tank, then engineers and SS infantry with no appearent suppression before a third infantry squad finally destroyed him. I then took a saved game and moved a sherman 14 hexes through a field of rifle squads taking rifle gernade hits every square. At the end of the move the sherman arrived to without any suppression and no loss of shots from movement. My question is simple: What is up with the American OOB? Have they been granted godlike powers? In previous versions it was very dificult for the Americans to win a meeting-engagement. I know Wild Bill loves the Americans but..... Am I nuts or am I the only guy to notice this?[/QUOTE] ------------------ "The most important element in war is man. And there are no tougher men than my China Marines." Major Gen. Archer 'Archy' Vandegrift, 1st Marine Division



gdrobinson -> (2/25/2001 12:19:00 AM)

I checked the troop quality preferences and they are all default. My kid did not juice the American morale or experience nor infantry or tank toughness. Sorry guys the explaination is not that simple



Warhorse -> (2/25/2001 12:48:00 AM)

Hmm, it must be something coded in then, similar to the Soviet Guards! I ran into a PBEM against a fellow, where as the Germans in '43, I took a severe spanking from the U.S., so severe, that I broke it off, just couldn't deal with it!! I don't mind losing, mind you, but dammit, I at least want my efforts to show something, other than every time I shoot from a stationary Pz IVF2, with a chance of 50%, and miss, or hit, and no penetrate. They would return, one shot, one kill! Screw that I said, and graciously called off the game [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I've noticed that MOST PBEM that I've done, particularly as Germans, that you suffer abnormally against a human player, but do the same game against a AI, and it's reasonable??! Something wrong here, and it ain't all tactics! My scenario, Thunder at Banya Pass, played well against the AI, although as the Hungarians, you must work very hard to get a draw, well, I decided to play a fellow from Bulgaria, a newbie this scenario, and I lost!! Not only lost, which as before, I don't mind, but my Hungarians DIDN't EVEN WASTE ONE SOVIET TANK!! And lost almost everyone of my 30+ Pz IV's!! Something is wrong when the game is played H-H?? Now, if you manipulate the Morale, and Experience around, it gets acceptable. ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue



Pack Rat -> (2/25/2001 1:13:00 AM)

AmmoSgt and I are having a talk about this very thing. We decided to switch roles with me taking the US and she the Germans in 43. US airborne rallies almost as well as the Japanese often going from very high supression to having movement points, something the Germans get stuck at just at the movement point part. I'm taking German FJ and SS, but it doesn't seem to matter. Armor isn't as bad, but it's a mystry why crews can rally well while if they are in a track they don't do as well. The other thing that bothers me a bit is the German armor other than the Panthers and Tigers. Historicly the PZIV's and the Stugs did very well, in their time period and were probably the mainstay due to numbers. Game wise I won't buy them, which is too bad because of several things. Oppenants get disgusted always going up against the Tigers, Tigers and Panthers are exspensive. ------------------ PR http://electricwar.tripod.com/



AmmoSgt -> (2/25/2001 2:05:00 AM)

Ok with all the axis players expressing there concern about the Americans , I have been giving them a Hard Look ( would you like some cheese and crackers with your wine [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ) .. sorry..anyway.. There is some weirdness in the points cost and how it gets Modified ..if you compare the OBed Cost, the true troop buy cost as adjusted for leadership ect and with the point value of the unit in the right click on the unit itself unit information box... It could use some looking at..i suspect that the morale factors ect are doing some weird stuff maybe ..i don't know all i need to know.. but US gear cost less than the OBed fixed costs generally, at 70/70/70, and the German stuff costs more ..now to me that says the Germans are getting a morale bonus since their prices are higher than OBed.. but i seems the Americans are benefiting more even thought they cost less than OBed cost listings at about 70/70/70 ..I dunno ..i have just started digging in around things because i want to assure each and every axis player that I creamed them fair and square ... [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Just want a fair game ..but i still do truely think it is Tactics, pure a simple ,and folks expecting more than what should be expected from German gear because of popular myth and then risking units in accordance with expectations and getting them killed because they are, after all, german or not, just a tank.. but this should be looked into [This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited February 24, 2001).]



Arralen -> (2/25/2001 2:18:00 AM)

Try the following: Country Training OFF True Troop Cost OFF Troop Quality 70 all others 100% Than play again and watch out if they are still that good. If not, open the old savegame and look for the unit leaders' stats (write them down) of both sides, and be so nice to post them here. Thanks . A.



Pack Rat -> (2/25/2001 2:45:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt: Just want a fair game ..but i still do truely think it is Tactics, pure a simple ,and folks expecting more than what should be expected from German gear because of popular myth and then risking units in accordance with expectations and getting them killed because they are, after all, german or not, just a tank.. but this should be looked into [This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited February 24, 2001).]
Tactics can't be denied. I'd like to think I'm not buying into the myth at this point but looking at the overall "feel". Elite is elite and with even a mediocare base rate they don't feel like they are doing well, especialy after playing US Airborne. I can get airborne from 99 down to 1 all too often. Like I said before, the sticking point is that 9 - 12 range where movement kicks in. It's like the roll to pass this for the Germans is off or something. ------------------ PR http://electricwar.tripod.com/



Warhorse -> (2/25/2001 2:55:00 AM)

Arralen, thanks man, will have to try that!! And about the StuG's, I had read that most of the crews for these were volunteers, and generally better crewman experience-wise than the average tank man, at least early on, till attrition took them.Ammo, it wasn't tactics, I was hidden most of the time, next turn my tank was in ruins, the ones I actually got to shoot with, usually were lucky to get 1-2 shots, usually not effective, IF they even hit, then would buy it, while the Shermans would continue on their merry way!!! This is BS, I'm not an advocate of the German myth, but I do happen to know the German tanks had very good optics, and in '43 were not that terrible crewed!! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Like I said, I don't mind losing, but I really have a problem with a walk-over, and my efforts seemingly not effective in the least!! Also., the infantry I had was SS, and with the Elite status should also have gotten out of suppression a whole lot more than they were, I couldn't get them to change orders hardly at all!! Just think something is really wrong here. And I generally try to pick more historical units, medium tanks, not hordes of Panther, maybe a section at best of Tiger, I just hate the best of the best BS, and usually now insist also on no off-board arty for meeting engagements, got tired of tons of the highest caliber arty available to a country being used...with a Bn force, give me a break!! ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue



Pack Rat -> (2/25/2001 3:59:00 AM)

Anyone who has been around Steel Panthers for a while and played the campaigns, for example as the Germans. Starting out with say the cheaper Stugs and getting to upgrade to a turreted track with a gun as good or better, knows the good feeling. But it didn't happen at all if the quility of the Stug was bad to begin with and it just wasn't so. Somehow I feel it's been lost, at least in human vs human play. Tactics now shows itself and while I'm no Rommel, even I come up with something good once in a while. I'd guess that the main spoiler is area artillery fire, no more the armor loss to artillery destruction but loss to artillery surpression. I don't think I've lost more than a tank or two with all the pbem league games I've played to artillery. I can remember when the Soviet 122mm's were terrors if you sat still and not because of surpression. Now my armor fear is getting artillery surpressed and having the infantry take me out. I'd like my Stugs and PZIV's back and to see the area surpression of artillery toned down. But this is just me. ------------------ PR http://electricwar.tripod.com/



krull -> (2/25/2001 8:18:00 AM)

Hmm I been play US in pbem games and ecept for 1 I get creame din 1 shot otr 2 from german tanks even Piv's. Plus my bazookas never hit. Althru i dont use alot airborne I buy some and may armored infantry does bettery wirth out alot artillary and infantry Germans just roll over the top. ALL i been able to do is stick shermans and wolverines out as bait to lure them into infantry assualt ranges. I been telling my oppanents that the US sucks. Althru I had one good game vs Packrat rest I jsut got murdered. And only reason I did ok vs Pack was i caught him in the open. AND artillaryed him to death. EXACT oppsite in pacfic for me US troops shoot 3 to 2 hexes away where my Japs cant see but 1 hex. Shermans immune to flamethowers close assults etc. Not to mention unstobale infantry A million shots and then move away etc.



David Heath -> (2/25/2001 8:33:00 AM)

Hey Guys Make sure the National ratings are off during some of those tests. Remember with these on the US breaks faster but also rally faster. The Germans break slower but also rally slower. David.



Pack Rat -> (2/25/2001 9:24:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by krull: Hmm I been play US in pbem games and ecept for 1 I get creame din 1 shot otr 2 from german tanks even Piv's. Plus my bazookas never hit. Althru i dont use alot airborne I buy some and may armored infantry does bettery wirth out alot artillary and infantry Germans just roll over the top. ALL i been able to do is stick shermans and wolverines out as bait to lure them into infantry assualt ranges. I been telling my oppanents that the US sucks. Althru I had one good game vs Packrat rest I jsut got murdered. And only reason I did ok vs Pack was i caught him in the open. AND artillaryed him to death. EXACT oppsite in pacfic for me US troops shoot 3 to 2 hexes away where my Japs cant see but 1 hex. Shermans immune to flamethowers close assults etc. Not to mention unstobale infantry A million shots and then move away etc.
Yes you really caught me with my pants down, but I hope my reserves have treated you to a bit more of a fight. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I and AmmoSgt just finished our reversed role game and it was a tie with my resverves not fully engaged yet. Gentleman this lady usally creams me. That either of us had the feel for what we were using is a given that we didn't. My armor losses can be blamed on my German Tiger tactic of take the high ground and go toe to toe, something the American armor shouldn't do as a rule. It was fun with out a doubt and a pleasure to be able to move infantry in a preplan with out it getting supressed beyond help. In a nut shell I could take Americans through an artillery barrage and come out the other side, the Germans would sit there and get chewed up. Do any recall my post about not using the auto rally? The reason for coming up with this was because Germans got stupid and only would rally to the point of being pinned, thus being there for the next barrage. I don't take the Germans over the hill any more. The real reason for this post however is I don't want to come across here as a whiner. It's only concern for perhaps a finer tuning or at least a look at certain things. I have several slots open for any kind of tests that can be suggested and will be happy to take any side. ------------------ PR http://electricwar.tripod.com/



AmmoSgt -> (2/25/2001 9:57:00 AM)

OK PackRat and i are going to play a test we are goint to use our regular league settings and play our regular side ..the stuff we are most familiar with but foing to try it with true troop cost and country training and national training whatever off... I think it will be helpful if some other concerned folks find opponnets and run a test game too and post here .. lets find out what the heck is going on .. Warhorse i can't resist the urge to tease a little .. ok but right it may not be just tactics if i am wrong about the tactics thingy i am going to appologize and give everybody a rematch .. ARRRGGH guys i am just teasing when i am give folks hard time dang ... [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] anyway yes i am actually despite my teasing taking this serious and i am testing and checking and this point thingy as a possible indicator that PackRat and i are working on is along the lines of the OOB cost v buy cost v point value in the game thingy that i tried to explain to you a month ago when i was telling you the points didn't make sense ..i got some posts on the OOB/TO&E board from way back .. and i still don't know exactly what the base experience morale levels would make the OOB editor cost as listed be the same as what you buy the unit for and then what the unit is worth in terms of game points ??? any info would help whats the Formula ??



Pack Rat -> (2/25/2001 10:05:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by David Heath: Hey Guys Make sure the National ratings are off during some of those tests. Remember with these on the US breaks faster but also rally faster. The Germans break slower but also rally slower. David.
In the US case does this mean thay take higher supression for a shot than say the Germans would? Is not the faster rally self defeating? By this I mean if you're actually controling the unit and not the AI you're going to have more of a Japanese National rating by using the rally button between shots if needed. Ammo and I are setting up a battle now, what kind of notes are needed here? ------------------ PR http://electricwar.tripod.com/



AmmoSgt -> (2/25/2001 10:59:00 AM)

OK the game is set up and sent ..here is what i am finding so far ...historic rating off so i could set troop quality at 70 for both sides then national characteristics off and true troop cost off American stuff is more expensive ( details in a minute) i experimented a bit with troop quaity at 70 and either national characterstics OR true troop costs on I pay full price for a M-10 wolverine 125 points exactly like it says in the OOB editor with both off I pay 125 points as well BUT with BOTH on I pay 91 points a considerable discount from list price ..on the other hand , the germans and tigers cost 169 with either one on but 182 points ( dang i lost my notes about 182 points i think ) thats MORE than list price... if both are on ..lets skip the arguement over what stuff should cost for a minute in terms of base price and just focus on what is making the interaction of the national chacteristics and true troop cost when both on effect the pricing when neither effect the buy cost seperately further experimentation tells me that both U S and Germans have values that make sense in relationship to the listed variable leadership ratings once you look at the unit info screen in the actual game on the map if only one of the two ( national characteristics/ true troops costs) is on.. But much higher it seems to me actual value points when you look in the unit info screen actually in the game on the map when both are on... maybe this is a clue details of what i bought ..( packrat don't peak) i bought what i usually bought except i got one platoon of M-10's less so overall about a 10-15 percent price increase



AmmoSgt -> (2/25/2001 11:09:00 AM)

OK side issue what should stuff cost what percentage of what ,say a, Tiger costs should a Wolverine cost. Right now 4 Tigers cost 676 points for that you can but 5 1/3 Wolverines ? Given the differences ( and i know all about the max 255 points thingy) wolverine has less than half the armor about half the sights is open topped and a gun about two thirds (IMHO)the gun and was more common overall than a Tiger .. so this is just an open question ..whats a fair price to you the reader of this post ... maybe this should eventually be a seperate topic but for now since we are here



AmmoSgt -> (2/25/2001 11:16:00 AM)

Keep in Mind i am focusing on the cost of the units as an indicator of what kind of actual effect that experience /morale/leadership is having in the game play itself and Keep in mind that the game hasn't started at this point so how all this effects the actual play of the game between these two forces is still unknown .. on the face of things the US is upped to 70/70/70 from 70/70/65 so they should be MORE effective ... they better be because the Germans are going to be cheaper and therefore more targets LOL [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Warhorse -> (2/25/2001 11:18:00 AM)

Ammo, no problem, I can definitely take a razzing!! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Good homework there!!!! ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue



AmmoSgt -> (2/25/2001 12:21:00 PM)

I want to point out that this point thing in and of itself is a problem in PBEM if i buy a wolverine in a standard 43 game for 91 points and the german gets 140 points for killing it.. then the German side is getting about a 50% bonus in end of game points while a 180+ point Tiger gives the american about 220 in victory points a 20% bonus so in fact roughly in a 4000 point game if the Germans kill all the americans they can get 6000+ victory points just on kills while the american if they kill all the germans can only get about 4800 round numbers that has to be skewing games that are close to draw/ win or lose/draw in the Germans Favor i mean i know in league it is german v german and american v american for standings but the win/lose/draw thingy counts for braging rights again this problem seems to be favoring the Germans more than the Americans at this point ..



Pack Rat -> (2/25/2001 12:40:00 PM)

I'm lighter in armor this time around as well, only 6 Tigers, the rest in SS and FJ. My artillery is my standard 2 rocket groups with ammo trucks and one 150mm group. I expect my standard American artillery pounding in about 2 turns depending on when she spots me although the battle lines are a bit closer this time due to the visablity so it may be sooner. Oh yeah I put some battle points into AA as well. ------------------ PR http://electricwar.tripod.com/



AmmoSgt -> (2/25/2001 1:46:00 PM)

I'm going to share what happens after Packrat gets to see it .. but suffice to say even with these experimental settings it looks like the Allies can still make the Axis Howl in pain... wait for it wait for it .I'm sure PackRat will be posting soon [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img]



AmmoSgt -> (2/25/2001 11:24:00 PM)

Lead recon elements of a Airborne Bn dropped into the enemy rear and discovered 2 batteries of Wulfraums covered by Flak >>The Flak is causing Heavy Casualties amongst the recon but over half the wulfrauns and ammo trucks have been destroyed saving countless lives This minimum range issue needs looking at i had wulfraums opfiring at ajacent hexes ...thats inside the damage circle for thier rockets ... they don't seem to do much damage up that close but they should be at least suppressing themselves and i don't think it is physically possible for them to acually fire that close shouldn't they have a minimum range of about 20 or something ?? same with 80mm /3 inch mortars and up something like 4-6 range minimum but with the mortars i figure hey the crew are probably using small arms or something ..but with wulfraums i don't think anybody but suppressed tanks crews carry weapondry that can simulate 280mm flame rockets [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] seriously wulfies need a minimum range I had some suppressed recon that didn't rally back as well as usual but not enough units supressed ralled yet to really tell over all rally seems about the same maybe a little slower .. but maybe not i may be over analysing here



JTGEN -> (2/26/2001 12:24:00 AM)

It's not just the US troops. In my mathemathics the hit chances that come up in the play do not match. Human player does not get those chances that computer tell you to have and AI on the contrary has better chances than the persentages given. But US is worst. It is not that big problem when playing them yourself but if AI plays them it is a mess. The US 75mm becomes more effective than the German 75mm43 and that is not wery realistic. I have played all major powers and some of the smaller ones but the US as AI is much too good compared to the AI as German or Soviet or British. I often do tests like making a save and then shooting and making a save again. Then I reload the situation and replay it and my calculations often come to conclusion that 20% chance is more like 13% chance. But you learn to live with it allthough sometimes it drives you nuts.



Pack Rat -> (2/26/2001 1:22:00 AM)

I do agree with a minimum range for the rockets, if it's possible. In wiping out a recon unit near a flak group with a rocket it did cause suppression 2 hexes away. I'm not seeing anything I wouldn't expect rally wise, some do and some don't. Leadship being the biggest facter is my guess at the moment. I'm not sure I understand completly what makes suppression jump real high say 11 after one shot but yet the same type of shot another time won't move it as far. Perhaps leadership is playing a passive role here? Perhaps how close the shots come to the unit are reflected in the numbers. I do regret that I didn't get any regular rifle squads to compare and I would suggest if anyone else is trying this at home to get a broader range of units. ------------------ PR http://electricwar.tripod.com/



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