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kao16 -> (2/26/2001 7:18:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Pack Rat: I'm not sure I understand completly what makes suppression jump real high say 11 after one shot but yet the same type of shot another time won't move it as far. Perhaps leadership is playing a passive role here? Perhaps how close the shots come to the unit are reflected in the numbers. How about.... once you have buried your head in the sand from the first shot, you can't get any closer to the ground when the next one goes off.

AmmoSgt -> (2/26/2001 8:30:00 AM)
Looks like infantry on Infantry contact is starting up German 150mm are raining down on lead positions US 155 have taken up fire support airborne scouts continue search for remaining wulfraums and German HQ i have a few questions for those guys ... Scouts are requesting air to take out the remaining wulfraums Once again the game favors the Germans they get their Muliple rocket launchers but even though this map is calling itself Salerno the US is getting no naval fire support and the US does not have access to 8' hows or long Toms to counterbattery But despite the advantages the germans have Better Armor excesive arty support the US is pressing the Attack ... The US should have access to those weapons systems that bettered the Germans Like Arty and effective air the air selection in 43 is all anti personel oriented which will work great here since the flak seems busy in the rear but typically the Germans are all Tigers and Panthers and i am sure some variant of aircraft with rockets is available in late 43 for the US .. When the US armor is priced on par or close to it with better German tanks then the US should have access to it's superior Arty for balance ... IMHO any thoughts from anybody on the pricing i have mentioned this before I am Taking the German alegations seriously that something is not right to their detriment ... in all fairness the inequites that the Americans suffer under should be addressed as well IMHO In Particular the Germans are quick to claim that Tigers a 5 times better than Shermans i would settle for Shermans costing 2 1/2 times what a Tiger costs Wolverines about the same If the German Armor Really is that much Better why aren't the German players hollering for cheaper Targets and taking this pricing thing serious .. but some how i don't think it is going to happen [This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited February 25, 2001).] [This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited February 25, 2001).]

Pack Rat -> (2/26/2001 11:19:00 AM)
Excessive artillery? give me a break. Now that the reinforcements have arrived I have excessive artillery. You ain't seen nothing yet... ------------------ PR http://electricwar.tripod.com/

AmmoSgt -> (2/26/2001 2:17:00 PM)
Yeah since the Allies are not allowed to have their long range arty because it would be unfair to the germans for anybody to have any equipment that was better than germans regardless of history the allies have no counterbattery capeability that can't in turn be counterbatteried and naturally it would be unfair for the Americans to have cheaper arty with more ammo regardless of history because that would give the Americans some sort of advantage for the Germans to whine about ... and of course this all has to be balanced so that the Germans have a even chance to win in Italy because they were so well supplied and had more and better equipment and if the german's don't get it they whine after all the Germans had a real shot at winning in Italy theywere never outnumbered or suffered from bad supply or any of that never had morale problems because the U S was killing their wives and children at home with bombers happy well fed germans with all the ammo they want just like americans ,, In fact i have a message here from the offical german news relaease saying after the afrika corp surrendered and the Italians surrendered german morale went up 50 % ...

AmmoSgt -> (2/26/2001 4:44:00 PM)
the Game continues and yes excessive arty infantry on infantry at this point with the germans using atleast 2 Bn of 150mm to support a BN of infantry... this is the kind of thing that gives me an attitude ,,there is a History with these threads the evil american arty is a prime example .. first the US can't have LongTom 155's because they can't be counterbatteried and the US can't have a realistic larger ammo supply for their guns than the germans for what in all fairness should be around the same price for twice the ammo per tube to reflect a realistic balance in nation capability and the US can't have their 4.5 inch Rockets on board at all so they can be reloaded like wulfraums and a thread much like this one about 8" that the soviets and U S and British Have can't be in the game because it isn't fair somehow so we have equality in calibers and ammo loads and we give the US less choice of arty so the Germans can have a chance and then When an Allied player says ok lets test another percieved unfairness to germans the german players flaunts past whining thread victories with the arty .. another example over on the OOB thread APCR ammo for 88L71's was rare so the game gave it to Jagd Panthers but nor King Tigers Geman players complained and now everything with an 88 gets APCR ..Imagine if the British in 43 started complaining that the 17lbers on the Sherman IC's don't have APCR ( they don't ) but the 17lbers on the Achilles do but for the Allies that didn't have the same shortages that the germans did and that didn't have the same degree of rarity with APCR started complaining nope ... too... rare can't have it might kill a German tank .. I am trying to be fair .. you want a fair game, then be fair to both sides .. if the germans want everybody to jump thru hoops so that german armor can be invincibe just like it is in Hollywood then try and be a little fair with letting the americans have a choice of arty and onboard stuff they actualy had and give the Americans, especially, extra arty ammo to refelect the fact that germans had to put up with a heck of a lot more arty than the americans do ...but nope ain't gonna happen i can see it now ..I have tried to bring this stuff up from time to time ... at least some of it ... and the Allies just can't win the whining contest on the boards As to this morale leadership issue , i don't get that either , Italy 43 right ? afrika corp just surrendered Italy surendered russia ain't going well Germany is way deeper into the national manpower pool .. where does the elite morale expectation come from .. the Allies are winning .. they took north africa supplies are pouring into england took Sicily getting a real good track record at kicking German Butt Late 43 Pacific is turning around nicely the Americans aren't worried about their familes getting bombed and killed but the German Morale is supposed to be Higher explain this to me ... Anyway yes Packrat the German players won the arty whining contest and yes while trying to work out what is fair for the Germans i mind having my faced rubbed in it. At some point this has to stop if the Germans want whatever advantages they can document fine , but they have to quit asking the Allies to give up Historic advantage under the guise of a balanced game

AmmoSgt -> (2/26/2001 8:30:00 PM)
One of the reoccuring rationalizations that something is off in the game ..is that the germans are doing so well against the Russians just as expected and then Bingo the americans show up and it doesn't go as well all of a sudden i mean T-43's were better than Shermans and ect so why is it different ..it must be something with the americans ect.. Well chew on this Soviets roughly 9 million combat dead Germany roughly 3 million combat dead US roughly 300,000 dead not knowing exactly how the German casualities were divided between the eastern and western fronts is not important to my fundamental point basicaly Germans Killed Rusians in multiples of German losses and Allies killing ( Britian a little under 400,000 depending on who you ask ) Germans in Multiples of Allied Deaths captured numbers have the same basic trend with million of russian and germans captured and 100,000's of allies Basically if you are used to killing 2 or 3 or 5 to 1 against the Russians you will notice a difference in the Game if, all of a sudden the German is the one being killed in mulitples .....BUT thats doesn't make the game wrong The Game wasn't wrong when the Germans were killing Rusians 4 to 1 and history bears that out ...why now, when history reflects the same kinda Kill ratios that the Germans are complaining about is it all of a sudden the game is wrong ??? What am i missing ..as surely as a tiger tanks gun is better than the gun on a M4a1 the US had More Arty and Arty Ammo than the germans did .. and it is just as important to the Americans that they have their arty and ammo ADVANTAGE as it is for a tigers gun ADVANTAGE to be modeled correctly ....I don't care if the German player wants to have more arty if the german player pays a reflective price ... but when the whole purpose of the test game is to work out a possible bug , and part of the deterimination of if there is a bug, is if the german does better and the german goes and uses another IMBALANCE as critical to the battlefield as if all of the tigers were armed with 37mm instead of 88's , that being the restriction is US arty type price and ammo load , ... or wait do you guys think some how the germans had half the arty and had 1/5th as much ammo as the US did .. get a grip ...anyway if it was a Problem the US was Having and to Test it we mickey with the setting to test the problem but then on top of it decide all the german Tigers would only have 37mm guns would the German players say it was a fair test with mutualy cooperating players were the tables reversed ... this is not a competion game this was supposed to be a test game to check out a morale maybe something problem not to show that if we made the german units cheaper that the germans could buy more artilery and then plan on saying well you see the german won when the settings were fair .... a good gaming model with good data should give you on the overall average some feel for how the actual war went it basicaly went the russians died in multiples or germans and the germans died in mutiples of allies and thats what the game is showing ..the Germans just want to do as well in the west as they do in the east .. you simply can't do that on a computer if you insist on using the same formulas for both fronts and the same conventions it would be a gross distortion if the Germans did as well against the west as a rule as against the Soviets . It is that simple , using the same formula same unit rating system the same physics you can't have a valid model that could reliably give you the same results on both fronts ....

AmmoSgt -> (2/26/2001 8:57:00 PM)
look i know i am obsessing , it happens, but lets look september 43 salerno not a giant beachhead but allied air superiority for the most part no prebombardment but naval support available at the invasion on Sep 9th thru 14th ok in the game no ability whatsoever to counterbattery german 150mm guns that can't be counterbatteried right back allies are allowed no naval support No 8" No 155LongToms batteries No air stikes on german Batteries ... is that fair yeah it's about as fair as tigers and Shermans having the same gun and the same armor .. but who do you hear complaining about arty effectiveness , the German players , give the germans wulfraums all day long and i don't complain i find a way to take them out .. I used B-17's once they tried B-17's for that kinda thingy they are going to take the B-17's out of the game but not the wulfraums wulfraums weren't that common but like tigers they are in every game i have played lately and why not what the heck ....if the US does use the arty it has the german players want to limit it so both sides can get the same ammount thats only fair same with air I mean does the german players get the same kinda thrill from winning after they have restricted the allies advantages in air and arty down to a fair balanced equal thing ? just asking ?

Arralen -> (2/27/2001 3:04:00 AM)
snip lots of crap posted by AmmoSgt: Shut up ! If you have something "constructive" to say, especially about the OOBs, do so. If you could "calm down" to a point where you can do any more serious testing, do so. If not, turn off your computer and go into your backyard, start shooting tin cans or something ! Arralen [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited February 26, 2001).]

AmmoSgt -> (2/27/2001 5:59:00 AM)
Ok well i certainly appreciate your caring attitude Arrelens but to make it easier could you be a bit more specfic than "snips alot of crap" I have been to the OOB forum In the thread where german players were complaining about US Arty cost ammo loads and it was decided and announce that anything that can shoot farther than a german 150mm would be withdrawn from the game the german player complaints were addressed and fixes promised I ask then and i ask again that since the way it was worded originally was that anything larger than 155mm would be removed from the game except for secanrio design i mentioned that the US had a 155mm long tom that would fit the new criteria and still allow the US it's historic arty range advantage just like a tigers gun being better than a Shermans is a historic adavantage my request went inanswered ignored no response germans were promised fixes ... when it was ammo load outs for offboard i mentioned that the US should have more ammo per tube to reflect nation characteritics of large ammo supply and more ferquent use of arty and a bullit first goes where where a squad could go ect.. german complaints about US having to much arty granted everybody gets the same ammo per tube and the prices are upped so less can be bought and everything is fair and neutralizes any US historic adavantge and prevents massive US use not because that it didn't happen and didn't happen often but because it wasn't fair thicker armoe on a tiger than on Sherman is fair but not and artilery inbalance my comment ignored unaddressed naval guns nobody needs them ( the senario in play for the test is Salerno ) germans don't have any to start with that were used for any serious shore bambardment not like normandy or any other amphib landing .. so why should anybody have them at all i said hey everybody ignored it when brought up gentile and all .. why would i go back to the OOB forum? german kill point bonus same thing 4000 point PBEM game sep 43 germans get 6000 vpoints for killing 4000 points of americans american can get about 4800 tops for killing 4000 points of germans this skews Victory points for win lose draw for the germans i ask why i get told to shut up ? I realize that my opinions here are not reproduciable and specific and as credible as "i drove a sherman thru infanrty and got hit 14 times with rifles grenades and got NO suppresion "..i mean recreate that little tank run ,anybody can do most everytime , the fact that the US had better arty and it has been systematicaly been disassemble by a progession of complaints that it is unfair or unbalnced or too effective whether by design or coincidence is a fact. The arguements have been on the boards, the promises made the inquires ignored . The whole allied cost per unit HVSS cost more than Tigers or Panthers US M3 halftrack costing as much as german ignored excused unaddressed just answer the questions the first time Thank you for your kind attention [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

AmmoSgt -> (2/27/2001 6:04:00 AM)
dang i forgot the whole thing about onboard US Russian Brit mutiple rocket launchers you know it has been mentioned ... what was the answer again ? heheeee see ....

AmmoSgt -> (2/27/2001 6:54:00 AM)
Let me tell you what i see as an Allied player and why i think things go the way they do .. when i go to kill a Tiger i usually start with infantry preferably bazooka typicaly i can get off several shots before i am spotted not alway sometimes i get spoted moving into position .. thats fine the tiger has fired rally and return fire once tiger gets a point of suppresion and returns fire i pull my first M-10 into position but i don't fire tiger switches targets maybe fires maybe not i pull up second M-10 i hex maybe two into firing position 2 man scouts have located these position and LOS for me as planed ahead of time no extra movement of M-10's first M-10 fires tiger opfire other tigers around for sure but none with LOS maybe smoke maybe trees hills whatever probably missed third shot suppressed from bazooka (bazooka maybe dead still two shots for rear M-1 Bazooka is not a reliable kill but maybe stun crew probably not ..second M-10 takes firstshot this is first for sure unsupressed shot maybe tiger fires back now in worse shape oddswise first M-10 re-engages, tiger has to switch again (Arrelens you can explain to the folks what I am doing to the odds and why ) 1st and second M-10's of the platoon switch fire 3rd M-10 or another bazooka now firing mutiple shots unanswered by opfire odds are looking good ..... What i see is Tigers unsuported by smallarms to button up OPEN TOPPED M-10s pull up into multiple LOS and start exchanging fire with each unit engageing them in the sequence of the opfire response ( and when i set a kill zone in use the range limit to co-ordinate the opfire it ain't accidental ) and if The Tiger survives a second fresh tiger comes up and gets a similar round of opfire because one tiger with 5 shots can't even start to exhaust the opfire from 2 US units and then what do we have two suppressed tigers in a kill zone ...Honest to God and i mean to embarras no one but i had a player in a pbem game better than 4 to one tell me good game and i don't want to take anything from you but .. the game is unfair to germans ... I plan on 5-10 hits to kill a tiger sometimes i get one in 3 or 4 hits i have gotten them first shot at range from berm popup usually because the other guy has range limits set down to where i get first unsuppressed shot from hill and i don't care how many tigers are down there 2 maybe 3 shots and gone behind the hill come and get me into the kill zone what no recon ?? infantry maybe maybe arty smoke do the d key if they cant get to cover or worse turn around for cover without D keying first.. seriously this is what i see

frank1970 -> (2/27/2001 3:31:00 PM)
to Ammosgt: Madam, I do not want to critic you in any way, but would you please have an eye on the reality? Your complains about missing US arty are right, absolutely, no problem. But there is German arty missing as well: 21cm-guns, 60cm mortars, 80cm railguns,... . The missing sea support is because your game is a meeting engagement. You do not get seasupport in Meeting engagements (by the way, there were Axis BBs, too in the Med-theater, would you like the German player to have some?) that is the game engine, not the OoB. At last I want to thank you for your enormous number of replies to this topic, it would be very informative if I would understand them, but some are a little big, written without point or comma. As a not native speaker I have really problems to get your point. Sincerely Frank PS Germans can be friendly, too! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [This message has been edited by Frank (edited February 27, 2001).]

AmmoSgt -> (2/27/2001 4:40:00 PM)
Frank yes i would like everybody to have everything. The Point i was making , however, was not that one particular scenario does not have naval support..were I to have a beach map i would with version 4.5 have naval fire support...but in 5.0 it will be removed. Naval Fire Support from large guns capeable of freely counterbattery firing available german guns will be gone ..were the US OOB's to recognize that the US had 8" arty before 1944 ..especially the extrodinary part US 8' Arty played in the Italian Campaign then i would have counterbattery fire capability .. but instead of fixing that the answer will be removal on any US 8' capability ..the US had an exceptionally long ranged 155mm LongTom . When i saw that the long range 8' was being removed i asked nicely that the 155mm long tom be considered as a replacement ..i never got an answer or an aknowledgement of my post . Likewise postings to allow US and Russian Rocket launchers onboard so they could benefit from ammo trucks has also not been responded to . It is my general experience that if it is to be addressed in a coming upgrade you get an answer if it isn't you either get a no and a reason or ignored . I appreciate that there is a wide variety of artilery that is not in the game and yet somehow most all basic national capabilities genneraly get addressed ..my Point being that i have never before seen an entire national characteristic removed before...in particular the ability for the US with commonly assigned divisional and Corp assets to outrange and counterbattery Axis artilery and not just by removing one item..but due to complaints from Axis players that specifically US arty makes it to hard to move. To remove from the game as far as PBEM is concerned not only 8" but naval and particularily in the context of Salerno where i do believe that naval gunfire had some legendary results against Tiger tanks but i have also seen that story about Tunsia and Normandy in all fairness. We are on yet another active thread about some injustice to the german forces inherient in the game ..ok fine this kind of thing should be looked at and where posibile fixed ..but when Allied players bring up the same kind of topic and place the details compleat with calculation and instruction on how to replicate the problem we get ignored or told to shut up..we get told to post to forums where it has been posted before and ignored .and we see further inroads further reducing allied capability responded to .some of these issues are months old ..they certainly come with more detail than driving a tank thru 14 rifle grenade hits and a feeling that somehow things don't go as well as they should ..The US historically killed and captured axis forces in mulitiples of any Allied loss just as Germans did against the Russians and the Japanes did against the Allies early in the war .. I am not asking for one of a kind 940mm US Mortars I am not asking for any capability or new units to be added to the game ..I am asking that existing units in the OOB's be left in place or added to formations so they are available to PBEM players who cannot freely edit their OOB without it affecting PBEM. I am asking that an important nation charcteristic and capability ie. superior us arty in range response time ammo supply that is necesary to reflect nation tactical doctrine not be removed at the request of the Axis players .. because it makes it harder on them . I am asking that the overall average German results against Russia not be used as a yardstick to establish handicaps for the Axis player so overall average similar results can be obtained against a foe on the western front where they were never achieved as an average result . And i am asking for a civil answer .. Further the basic cost of artillery is going to rise and the ammo load out for offboard reduced further affecting the situation and reducing artillery's role in the game.. in most cases for most armies with similar capeability and comparible artillery ..this would not be a big deal but the US relied on Arty more had a more effective arty doctrine and better ammo supplies and better fuses for that matter. I am not asking that US arty be increased in leathality to reflect superior US VT fusing or anything special ..just that it be left somewhat more capabile.. It is faster in response time i don't know that it should be as instantanious as it is but should the delay be increased i would ask that other nations arty be adjusted as well . To deny the Germans a detailed modeling of an effective tank would be unthinkable .. but US arty and i think arty in general is not seen as important, somehow a secondary issue ..and that might be true for some countries .. but artilery for the americans in WW2 is what the Panzers are for the germans ..they key element in the tactical equation .. all i ever expected was for documentable problems to be looked at and to get the same attention and respect as unreproducable alegations of extordinary invincibility on the part of Amercan Shermans . But here i am facts and figures in hand getting flamed by the folks who work on the OOB's .... better than being ignored i supose....

frank1970 -> (2/27/2001 6:03:00 PM)
I did not know that all heavy US artillery will possibly be removed from the OoB, but when this will be done it is a real disadvantage for the American players. But I have to disagree about the Panzers. They were an important part of the German tactics, but in WW2 and for the Wehrmacht the infantry was still the Queen of the battlefield. German infantrie was very good trained and the whole system was organized in a way that each lower degree could do the job of the next higher. In 1944 most companies were ordered by sergants, Bns by captains,... . The ability to react clever and adapted to the situation was the main advantage the Wehrmacht had against the Soviets and against the Allies. Lidell Hart gave the Allied infantrists very bad marks in the fight against German Infantry. What made the Allies stron was their good artillery support and their fighterbombers which destroyed the German supply lines. Both can not be modeled by the gameengine. But it might be modeled by the OoB, by giving German forces less ammo in 1944-1945 or something like that.

AmmoSgt -> (2/27/2001 7:24:00 PM)
Frank well OK we can agree that arty was important and armor was important and that infantry was the root of any army and i am sure everybody has a favorite branch LOL .. but as to the basics of the problem it sounds very much like we agree that US arty need to NOT be disassembeled ..and thats enough to make me happy ..liddel Hart had his own Ideas on alot of stuff military LOL and he was way ahead of his time with some of his thoughts ...

Kharan -> (2/27/2001 7:39:00 PM)
Just a quick note (my eyes hurt) that the arty modification is in no way country specific, no guns higher than 150/155mm from any country will be buyable, neither was it requested by players from any specific country.

AmmoSgt -> (2/27/2001 8:12:00 PM)
Kharan yeah i get that not country specific but since the Germans didn't have a whole lot of naval bombardment stuff and amphib operations and didn't have any good common field arty above 150mm no matter how innocent it sounds it doesn't remove anything from the germans and it does reduce real capability from the allies ..and that 155mm limit doesn't explain why the 155mm US Long Tom is not being added and why only the germans get onboard rocket arty and it doesn't address the fact that US arty had significant larger regular ammo supply and all the other ..it's the same for everybody stuff ...to me thats like saying on all tanks over 50 tons are out of the game..thats not nation specific but that would only hrts germans and we both know it .. How is reducing a bonififed US advantage in Arty to the same ammo and gun and range sizes that allow the best german arty in the game come off as fair ..the allies had better arty the germans can't handle it so it is being pulled plain and simple

AmmoSgt -> (2/27/2001 8:18:00 PM)
Kahran the posts requesting reducing US arty capability are for all to see on the OOB froum as are my posts about keeping it in or replacing the US 8" with the LongTom as are my questions about the german kill bonus against the americans and the point cost of american gear inrelationship to german gear ya got the best us tanks priced right up there with the german armor and it didn't help give the germans automatic victories so now you are cutting the arty out from under the US so the germans can win easier i haven't seen anything that says otherwise and flaming me for bringing it up again by the OOB staff isn't going to make you right and me wrong

AmmoSgt -> (2/27/2001 8:30:00 PM)
This is NOT just about removing 8" this is about removing 8" AND raising arty prices to reduce the arty roll in the game AND equalizing the ammo loads so the US doesn't get an advantage AND remove navalfire support AND not inculding 155's that outrange german arty AND not allowing allies to have onboard rockets .. thats quite a list of changes all favoring the Axis player and all handicaping the Allies ..how do you explain it ?

Warhorse -> (2/27/2001 8:44:00 PM)
Who said ANYTHING about removing arty greater than 155mm???!!! I assure you, I have the latest oob's, and they are there! They just aren't available onboard. And also, who from the oob staff is flaming anyone, I sure as hell ain't, and I know all the guys on it, and most of them don't post much here as it is... who is it? ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Kharan -> (2/27/2001 9:05:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Warhorse: Who said ANYTHING about removing arty greater than 155mm? From "artillery costs"-thread (http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003149.html): Paul Vebber Administrator Posts: 2002 Registered: Mar 2000 posted December 06, 2000 12:05 quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUt the last thing I have to do before I send the OOBs to David is run them through "spreadsheet from hell" and rescale the arty units so 155s are the largest arty you can buy (all others will be relegated for scenario use) that should help fix the arty cost problem. He didn't have the time then, so I figured that was the modification being done this time.

AmmoSgt -> (2/27/2001 10:04:00 PM)
I stand corrected since i just found out that Arrlens who flamed me wasn't on the OOB crew i stand corrected and appologize... I would like to add that the wulfraums are 280mm so i assume that the wulfraums being over 203mm(8") will not be on board anymore then ??? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] sits back watchs tap dance start

USMCGrunt -> (2/27/2001 10:48:00 PM)
Just to throw my 2 cents in, I know this topic has mainly focused on the ETO and US vs. Germany, but there is one place that the use of HEAVY guns(14inch and 16inch naval support) was very prevelent. Pacific Theatre. Arty support from naval big guns was widely used when assaulting the beaches and in some scenarios I've played, it was literally the deciding factor between having my Marines dead on the beach, and accomplishing a breakthrough to the interior. Since the Pacific is my favorite theatre to play in, I have a vested interest in seeing that my Naval Gun support is not cast aside. Not including this type of arty for the US would be a severe blow to the abilities of anyone playing the Marines in a Pacific scenario or campaign. ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

AmmoSgt -> (2/27/2001 11:02:00 PM)
Grunt thanks for the support ..i think everybody has a BIG stake in the game modeling both weapons and national capabilites properly and aribitrary cross the board restrictions serve no one well.. just look at the latest info "large caliber arty not on board" ..ok taken literally that means german wulfraums 280mm are out and US 4.5" ( 110mm or 115 mm somebody check my math ) are in and on board ....well thats what the man said [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited February 27, 2001).]

BlitzSS -> (2/27/2001 11:24:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by USMCGrunt: Just to throw my 2 cents in, I know this topic has mainly focused on the ETO and US vs. Germany, but there is one place that the use of HEAVY guns(14inch and 16inch naval support) was very prevelent. Pacific Theatre. Arty support from naval big guns was widely used when assaulting the beaches and in some scenarios I've played, it was literally the deciding factor between having my Marines dead on the beach, and accomplishing a breakthrough to the interior. Since the Pacific is my favorite theatre to play in, I have a vested interest in seeing that my Naval Gun support is not cast aside. Not including this type of arty for the US would be a severe blow to the abilities of anyone playing the Marines in a Pacific scenario or campaign. Better then ever!!!

Eisbaer -> (2/28/2001 2:53:00 AM)
There was a lot of talk about big guns, but i remember the beginning of this thread, the question, if something is wrong with the germans in pbem-games. Today I made some intensive test. It is the same test I made a few years ago with the original Steel Panthers, as a friend drew my attention, that something screwy was going on with the SPOB-file. (And indeed, i think there was an curious factor or something else, that simulates non existant armor values on most of the better german tanks. But after changing these adresses to zero and raising the values at the adresses of the real armor, everything was o.k.) Now, I am very observant, if I read, that someone seems to be favoured. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] For this test, I created a map with 10 Lanes seperated by Level 3 Hills. And then I placed 10 tanks for both, german and allied, head to head in a distance of 8 to 12 hexes and saved it as scenario. Looks something like this: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx GT AT xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx GT AT xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx GT AT xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Now, I "played" this scenario hotseat or pbem several times and let either allied or german tanks fire first. I tried it with Pz IV, Stug IV, Tigers and King Tigers, Panthers, Shermans, Jumbos and others. The best results I had with Panther Vg vs. Jumbo 76, where the Jumbo seems to be a little bit stronger, but even in one pbem game the germans shot 6 Jumbos and lost only 2 Panthers. In an other game the outcome was exactly reverse. But also with other tanks, I really NEVER had the feeling, that there were something wrong with the armor-values. I never had the impression, that one side is prefered. I admit, it's a really simple test and it only checks the main gun against front armor, but I think it would detect some failures. Now, I am REALLY satisfied with SPWAW [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Thanks a lot!!!

ursus -> (2/28/2001 6:09:00 AM)
I must agree with USMC Grunt, taking away offshore bombardment would cripple any beach assault! As for the other arty arguments i am for what is historacly acurate, which i know can be hard to corralate to a game. I myself do not feel that this games scale of units (Battalion.) would get a lot of (if any) Large Guns 155mm+ for off board support. The USA was know for huge supplies and to limit the US arty ammo supply because some people do not like it, is wrong, unless they are currently wrong and not historacly correct. I would like to get back to the initial topic of this thread and see if there is any truth to it or not. I hope the people that can address this are doing so and give us the results.

Arralen -> (2/28/2001 8:06:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by AmmoSgt: I stand corrected since i just found out that Arrlens who flamed me wasn't on the OOB crew i stand corrected and appologize... .. they just "forgot me" they said ... strange, huh ? I mean, I'm working on the German OOB for months, and they just forget to add my to their list !! And 'bout flaming .. see below [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] About German naval stuff .. there was plenty of stuff in the latest version of the OOB (that I did, that is), and I even found a way around the 255-points limit. About Pauls "comment" .. that is rather old, and it never worked out that way seemingly. Better ask Stuart Millis what he's doing with the OOBs now ... ... s***, sig doesn't work out as intended .. Should be: Feel free to flame me - I'll flame back ... ... mmhh, maybe I'll flame you anyway ! #ASCII pic of cute little sleeping dragon# Arralen at http://Arralens.purespace.de/ [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited February 28, 2001).]

Colonel von Blitz -> (3/1/2001 12:14:00 AM)
This one is for you, AmmoSgt. I see you are furiously defending for greater arty support for allies, that is understandable. Though I prefer Axis side, I back you up in this arty matter. But I have a little question concerning this matter: was that huge American arty available usually at corps or division level or was it available at lower (regiment or even battalion) levels too? At least those massive Soviet bombardments were available usually at Division level only. I mean the battles SPWAW usually represents seldom include more than battalion or two per side and that is hardly a regiment level. If major part of American arty was available at Division level only like their Soviet counterparts, then it would be unjustified to have that arty in SPWAW battles. On the other hand, I'd like to see even the most rare HUGE guns in SPWAW too, more than just for scenario use only (I never ever play scenarios anyway, they suck!!). I say, keep those 155mm and above guns to be used freely, then it's up to players to agree whether these guns are allowed or not at battle in question. Colonel von Blitz [This message has been edited by Colonel von Blitz (edited February 28, 2001).]

AmmoSgt -> (3/1/2001 3:37:00 PM)
Blitz all arty in all armies fires eventually in support of maneuver units at the lowest level .technicaly for the squad if you want ...the proper issue is what is doctrine and how are Bde Div and Corp assest shared .. and unlike most armies that have a rather ridged concept the 6th Div's art supports 6 th Div troops ... Bde's had arty Bn but Corp could task it matter of course Corp has Arty Reg or two and Bn exicuting the plan needs arty if a battery anywhere is untasked and in range sure why not .. it is that cross tasking doctrine that was in fact so different and the internal friction involved was so low because ammo supply was so great and nobody had to play a zero sum game that the doctrine could be exicuted freely ... What part of a Corp moves to contact .. whatever portion is moving gets all the tubes or a great portion US maneuver Arty Corp level was compleately unburdened from deep interdiction mission because US had air that did it better .. yeah Arty fired some intridiction but nothing like Axis had to thats where this whole big gun not to SPWAW scale comes from European no air power usage not from standard US Army Usage and Doctrine

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