Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (Full Version)

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lastkozak -> Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (8/24/2013 6:28:05 PM)

I have several questions about airdrops. Some info on the site, but detailed info is not.

How many transports and or transport units, does one need at an airfield to transport one airborne brigade?

Obviously the U-2s are not good enough, but the Li-2's and the TB-3G-2's are big enough. Is it possible to drop 3 brigades?

Does the experience/moral of the transports influence the accuracy of the drop? Or the survivability of the unit? How many men from the airborne brigade are lost in the drop that is?

What type of terrain is allowable for the drop in Blizzard? Is it better to drop in snow? Or drop in Bilzzard for the soviets.

Does one need to to the drop first thing in a turn, before anything else?

Does one drop at night? Or day mission? In which case I presume the transports need to be on day or night mission, respectively.

Inquiring minds want to know!!!!

lastkozak



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (8/25/2013 10:15:49 PM)

Not sure why none of the veterans would like to answer. These are very good questions. I'll try to answer them.

quote:

How many transports and or transport units, does one need at an airfield to transport one airborne brigade?


It usually requires one transport unit per para brigade. If you do it right a screen will pop up telling you how many sorties are required (see below). If you have a lot of damaged transports you might need more than one air regiment.

quote:

Obviously the U-2s are not good enough, but the Li-2's and the TB-3G-2's are big enough. Is it possible to drop 3 brigades?


Not sure about the TB-3G but the Li-2 and C-47 are just fine. You can drop as many units as you want as long as you have enough air regiments with transport planes.

quote:

What type of terrain is allowable for the drop in Blizzard? Is it better to drop in snow? Or drop in Bilzzard for the soviets.


I don't think it matters. Blizzard is an excellent time to drop paras. [:D]

quote:

Does one need to to the drop first thing in a turn, before anything else?


No but I believe your transport planes need to be at 0%. After the air drop they will be at 100%.

quote:

Does one drop at night? Or day mission? In which case I presume the transports need to be on day or night mission, respectively.


Both is possible. Air drops at night are good unless Axis player uses night fighters. No matter what you will lose a ton of planes and men. And yes, if you want to drop your paras at night you need to turn on Night Mission. Also your fighters need to be on Night Mission!!!

quote:

Does the experience/moral of the transports influence the accuracy of the drop? Or the survivability of the unit? How many men from the airborne brigade are lost in the drop that is?


I don't think moral matters. It all depends on how many transports actually get to the target. If you lose too many your para unit will be depleted and useless. In any case even with great fighter support you will lose a lot of transports and men. I've seen losses as high as 90%.




[image]local://upfiles/45102/9EA73CFA47AB4E69AA1B15600FEA8C64.jpg[/image]



carlkay58 -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (8/25/2013 10:52:21 PM)

Because most of us veterans still have problems doing it too?

I have been able to launch the air drops from the demo all of the time. In game, however, I have yet to be able to make it work. Don't know why. WitW, however, makes the entire process MUCH easier!



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (8/26/2013 12:02:16 AM)

carlkay58, there are a couple of things to remember:

1. Air base must be no more then 5MP from railhead
2. Pay attention to night/day mission settings
3. Check your setting for percent required to fly
4. Make sure to use Shift + LEFT click to set up the mission. I still sometimes make the mistake of using Shift + Right click but that's for supply drops.

Hope this helps!

I also need to make a correction to my earlier post. The transport air regiment does NOT need to be at 0 % to fly the mission.



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (8/26/2013 3:14:38 AM)

I took another look at this and realized a couple of things. When you only use one transport regiment for the air drops only a fraction of your men participate. I thought the rest would just die but instead it turns out that they get added to the nearest airborne brigade. I did a little test and dropped eight para brigades each with one Li-2. Six landed fine and two were depleted. The men that didn't participate were added to one para brigade which turned into a monster. Pretty crazy stuff. Fortunately, the brigade goes down to normal size after about four or five turn.



[image]local://upfiles/45102/B96CE8E75A894F6E858B1DD5F3B8F83D.jpg[/image]



Schmart -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (8/26/2013 6:22:06 AM)

That's quite the Abn Bde you have there! 23k men in a Bde with 22 CV! Must be a bug...



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (8/26/2013 3:15:45 PM)

Not necessarily a bug. It's just weird how the system handles soldiers that are not send on the mission. It would make more sense to send them back to the manpower pool instead of packing them all into one unit. Anyway, the system corrects itself after a couple of turns and goes back to a normal brigade.



lastkozak -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/9/2013 8:05:54 PM)

I will try what you recommend. However, I keep getting this feeling that somebody is laughing at me right now, since the only person to reply was Bozo the Clown!

"Yes Comrade Stalin, but 'Bozo the Clown' said it would work!"



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/9/2013 8:33:16 PM)

Only a clown could build an airborne brigade with a CV of 22. [:D]



lastkozak -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/9/2013 10:33:59 PM)

Holy, mother of the proletariat! And Son of Lenin!

I dropped 3 brigades, 1 during the day, with fighter escort, and the Germans shot down or damaged every plane, I sent up 20 Yaks and 20 Migs, but only half showed up! But still had a 20 to their 26! Did not help at all. Each brigade started with 3308 men, but after landing only 10% survived. Even the other two brigades I dropped at night, and no interceptors, yet the survival of my Brigades was only 10-15%

I suspect dropping them all into the same hex would be better, since then they can merge!



lastkozak -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/9/2013 11:34:34 PM)

OK, figured some stuff out, and am posting it for others.

1) Night missions are preferable, as most opponents do not put their fighters on night missions.
2) Landing 3 brigades in the same hex is best, as one can merge them together.
3) Landing on rail lines regardless if the unit is depleted, destroys the rail line.
4) The fewer sorties the better, more men survive, if you transport 1 brigade with a tonn of planes, so the sorties are less than 10.
5) An airborne unit does not transport if the experience level of any of its components is less than 40.



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/10/2013 4:18:27 AM)

Glad you figured it out. It's fun! And surprisingly deadly if used correct. If you block the retreat route of enemy units with a couple of paras you can rout them out of the pocket and break through with cavalry or tanks.

One problem is that so many Li-2 get shot down. In my current game I experimented so much with paras that I only have 9 Li-2 left in my pool.



Dangun -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/10/2013 1:26:08 PM)

Do you find the use of air-transported units effective though?

I find that most often the planes are more useful being themselves, and the units have already been thrown in front of a tank.
Maybe in the longer campaigns it becomes more useful? I don't know yet.



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/10/2013 5:01:36 PM)

quote:

I find that most often the planes are more useful being themselves, and the units have already been thrown in front of a tank.
Maybe in the longer campaigns it becomes more useful? I don't know yet.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I find parachuting units very effective. I believe most Soviet players are using them during blizzard to prevent some Axis units from running away. I find them more useful in the later stages of the game for routing units and cutting important rail lines. The problem is that early in the game you don't have enough Li-2. I once tried a major operation with para units in the north that ultimately failed because I missed just a couple of transport planes.

I don't think I'm ever going to turn my para units into rifle guards again.



Mike13z50 -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/10/2013 10:36:03 PM)

In my current game (42 campaign vs Ger AI) I pocketed 17 divisions in Leningrad region by dropping 3 para bde in the swamp crossing south of the lake and north of Pvosk.

[image]local://upfiles/23860/BE19621F80504F84B48EE79E43B67670.jpg[/image]



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/11/2013 1:27:57 AM)

Nice!!! [&o]



lastkozak -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/21/2013 10:35:58 PM)

Mike, I am presently doing the same thing, only it's December 1941! But 5 panzers and 3 motorized, including SS! What a Prize!



lastkozak -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/28/2013 8:58:39 PM)

Ok, so are you allowed to also air drop the HQ's for the Airborne Divisions ? If so how?

:(



Mike13z50 -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (9/30/2013 7:51:56 PM)

You can't drop the HQ, only Airborne BDE and RGT I believe.

16.3.6. Air Dropping Units
The air drop mission will be conducted only by transport air group units with aircraft that have a maximum load rating (5.4.18) of at least 2000. The mission can be escorted by fighter air group units.
Regimental or brigade sized Airborne type combat units with an average experience level of at least forty can be air dropped into any hex vacant of enemy units within range of the transporting aircraft.



rmonical -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/19/2013 5:22:30 AM)

With perfect intel, it looks like Bozo can cut this rail line until he runs out of transports. Since he can drop in a ZOC, there is no reasonable way for the Axis to prevent this maneuver. The southern half of AGS grinds to a halt.

Again, we see the equivalent of a small partisan battalion completely destroying the rail in the hex. This is in clear weather and it is over 100 miles to the originating air base.

[image]local://upfiles/38006/C415D1B2BC53412CAC2D2D40B254C1B7.jpg[/image]



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/19/2013 2:10:42 PM)

It's not quite that easy because of the following rule:

quote:

Airborne units may only be dropped within 8 hexes of a supplied friendly unit.


You can't just drop units as far west as you want. It has to be coordinated with your front line units. I don't like running away as SHC because it's boring. Instead I counter-attack and I'm willing to sacrifice a lot of units. The airborne drop is a benefit of this strategy. I'm sure I will pay the price later.

Overall, I find this very realistic and interesting. Why is it not possible for 300 men to land behind enemy lines to destroy the rail in the hex? Your screenshot shows the perfect way to defend against it. Use airbases and HQs to defend the rail line. You just have to make sure that the front is not moving too far west.



rmonical -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/21/2013 4:23:55 AM)

quote:

Why is it not possible for 300 men to land behind enemy lines to destroy the rail in the hex? Your screenshot shows the perfect way to defend against it. Use airbases and HQs to defend the rail line. You just have to make sure that the front is not moving too far west.


I don't have any problem with them cutting the track as if they are a partisan unit. My issue is a partisan sized unit getting 100% of the track.

With airbases and HQs performing railroad security (an odd concept in and of itself), all you need is two air drops. One off the track so the few hundred men without heavy weapons will cause the 10s of thousands of troops to displace, then another to break the railroad.

The air drop rules in WITE are broken.



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/21/2013 1:34:40 PM)

quote:

all you need is two air drops. One off the track so the few hundred men without heavy weapons will cause the 10s of thousands of troops to displace, then another to break the railroad.


They don't displace on the same turn.



rmonical -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/21/2013 5:01:03 PM)

quote:

They don't displace on the same turn.


You tried?[:D]



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/21/2013 5:41:32 PM)

No but didn't we have something similar in our last game. I believe an HQ was displaced but only after I finished the turn.

Anyway, why use two airborne brigades if you can achieve the same result with one. The Russians have very few transports. That's why I'm trying to use as many TB3G as possible.



rmonical -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/21/2013 5:48:20 PM)

Oh my, it just gets better and better. In this case, the airborne unit was depleted on landing. It still converts the hex to Soviet control. My regiment causes the depleted unit to do something leaving no record of casualties. The hex remains under soviet control and my regiment does not have the movement points to convert it. Had the airborne unit not been depleted, my regiment would have been able to launch a hasty attack into the hex causing the unit to surrender and converting the hex. So now we see an airborne unit that is likely below the minimum size a partisan battalion needs to launch an attack that is able to convert a hex.

On an airborne drop further north last turn, I eliminated the unit and converted the hexes to Axis control last turn. An Army HQ with 5 construction units is 7 hexes away and none got deployed to broken rail line this turn - the construction units are sitting in the HQ. AGN is even closer, but it chose to deploy all of its construction units to less important hexes.

Like I said, it is broken.

[image]local://upfiles/38006/64B210267501437884BC5D92FBD1CF76.jpg[/image]



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/21/2013 6:09:19 PM)

Wouldn't it take more then one turn ]to repair the rail line with a labor detachment? Why not move the RR Repair Unit back?



rmonical -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/21/2013 6:39:21 PM)

In the center I did. Further north, none was handy. My point is that the allocation of construction battalions to rail hexes broken by partisans is good. Rail hexes broken by an air drop appear to not receive a similar priority.

IMHO, easiest solution is if the airborne unit has less than, say, 700 men after a drop, then it should convert to a partisan unit and get an attack in the hex out of sequence to the normal partisan attacks. The Soviets get the broken rail line without have the bizarre add on effect of these battalion sized units being treated as a regular combat units in terms of hex control and displacing adjacent non combat units.

My other recommendation is the air drop does not get the free intel feature and an airdrop on a hex occupied by anything is eliminated.



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/21/2013 6:47:01 PM)

I agree with all your points. Also, I would like there to be a chance that the airborne unit gets dropped into an adjacent hex instead of the target hex.



rmonical -> RE: Soviet Airborne Operations; HELP!!!! (10/21/2013 7:30:02 PM)

quote:

unit gets dropped into an adjacent hex instead of the target hex.


Especially for night drops. I'm not so sure about day drops. Market Garden generally dropped close to the desired DZs. Normandy (night drop) was a disaster, but the units were generally within a 5 mile radius of where they were supposed to be. My dad was a pathfinder in the 82nd.



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