RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (Full Version)

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Tomcat84 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/5/2013 8:47:04 PM)

One thing that also complicates modelling this vs the real world is the fact that we are just seeing a plane, and there is no way of seeing the human element around it.

You can have the same jet turn around reasonably quickly, and have a second pilot fly the second sortie. This pilot may have started his planning cycle before the first mission in the same plane even took off... Plan your strike, route etc, get intel updates, brief the mission, by the time you fly it might be hours since you first showed up.

Now this might give you the ability to launch the plane quickly after the first mission, but after the second one, could you still do the third? Do you have another pilot waiting? Whats the pilot per jet ratio of this particular squadron/air force?

Problem is, Command doesn't model a squadron roster of pilots and crewchiefs etc. I think with the current six hour turn around for most fighter strike type missions they actually arent far off the mark for a sustained sortie rate. And that air to air is much shorter makes sense too, cause theres way less planning and briefing involved for that. Problem is some things get a bit of a grey area, like a CAS loadout, it probably doesnt really require that much planning if it's not a complex CAS situation, and of course theres the "wartime emergency we need to get things done now screw regulations". Does that happen? I dont know to be honest. But even if it does, as posted above, theres only so many times you can do that. It would not be realistic to continuously be able to quick turn complex loadouts.

So yeah i dont have the answers lol, but I like the discussion :) But what I want to highlight again is that people indeed need to realize theres more to prepping a flight than just hanging bombs on a plane and putting fuel in. The pilots have to have lunch too before they go [:D]



Gunner98 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/5/2013 9:38:30 PM)

And there is always the Taxi ride back and forth to the 5* hotel and the war-stories in the bar to account for[:D]



Tomcat84 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/5/2013 10:03:17 PM)

exactly. And the women need attending as well :)



BipBip -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/6/2013 9:36:29 AM)

Hi,

Indeed, this ready time was a problem for me, several times.

Especially when it adds up with other games limitations !

As no time planning is possible and "time to ready" of the A/C is not shown in the mission creation window, we end up going forward and backward in the windows to find a pair of planes that could actually be ready at the same time, and which would be ready at a time compatible with the mission.

A failure to do all this quite ridiculous micro-management can screw an entire raid... example :

Yesterday, I tried to launch a raid with Corsairs II. The four-ship formation was grouped, but... while all seemed to be ready, number 4 reverted to 6h before being ready !
The three took off, and waited for the group to form. I wasn't able to break the group and after one hour was forced to RTB them as they continued to orbit the carrier waiting for the last guy.

Mission scrubbed... I doubt that it would have been like that in real life...



ComDev -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/6/2013 1:44:42 PM)

Curious... was this the latest beta build?



BipBip -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/6/2013 1:48:53 PM)

It was the build 438.



Lerxt -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/6/2013 3:13:34 PM)

You think 6 hours is bad? Try 20 hours for a B2. Not realistic.



thewood1 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/6/2013 3:20:02 PM)

Actually on the B2 it is believable. After every flight, almost the entire skin has to be inspected and a number of the special panels have to be re-applied. Northrup at one point admitted in hearings that B2s might only be able to sortie 2-3 times a week.



thewood1 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/6/2013 3:21:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lerxt

You think 6 hours is bad? Try 20 hours for a B2. Not realistic.


btw, what information do you have on sortie rates for B2s. I am curious because they are hard to find.



Quellist -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/6/2013 4:58:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

In before the 'yeah, but in wartime they'll throw the book out the window' arguments...

You are getting tiresome, who died and made you keeper of the faith? And what are you adding to the discussion?



mikmykWS -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/6/2013 5:28:43 PM)

Primarchx brings a lot to the table and has the trust of the development group even when we don't agree. When he posts we read.

Mike



MaB1708 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/6/2013 5:33:33 PM)

quote:

Primarchx brings a lot to the table and has the trust of the development group even when we don't agree. When he posts we read.


So do a lot of us COMMANDers and forumites. Good timing to say thanks to him for his contributions.

Cheers,

Martin



RoryAndersonCDT -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/6/2013 11:50:01 PM)

Cheers to Primarchx! He is a great source for information!



Pii -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/7/2013 1:39:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gratch11

1/ I guess we can all agree that rearming and refueling on a carrier and on land are two different things

2/ Couldnt the game have different times depending on mission?
on land Like just refuel - 10 min
CAP refuel+reload - 15 min
Strike - ?

Still Think 6 hours to reload and rearm in hot battle is stupid, big difference between desert storm scenario and desperate CW scenario


It should also depend on the era.



jomni -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/7/2013 1:41:51 AM)

What about scalable modifier based on the scenario designer's intentions?



Lerxt -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/7/2013 3:48:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lerxt

You think 6 hours is bad? Try 20 hours for a B2. Not realistic.


btw, what information do you have on sortie rates for B2s. I am curious because they are hard to find.


25 years flying jets, civilian and military.



thewood1 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/7/2013 4:03:37 PM)

B2s and the care needed for maintenance? I have to assume you know about all the issues the B2's skin has? I worked at a company that helped make it and the the numbers of maintenance hours on a B2 is 10-20X of a B52. Take a look at sortie rates for B52s. Usually 1 a day on a surge.



Primarchx -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/7/2013 4:18:50 PM)

From Lessons learned, Operation Odyssey Dawn...

quote:

Nearly one year ago in the early hours of March 27, as the mercury dipped to 28 degrees, Aircrews from the 28th Bomb Wing launched in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn, North Atlantic Treaty Organization's mission to protect civilians from enemy attack during the uprising and civil war in Libya.

For the first time in history, B-1B aircrews executed a global strike mission originating from the continental United States.

With a mere two days notice, Ellsworth Airmen were tasked to prepare several aircraft and build hundreds of precision munitions to provide the specific combat configuration needed for the mission.



smudge56 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/7/2013 5:13:54 PM)

Fascinating story impressive team work.



thewood1 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/8/2013 9:15:37 PM)

This link came from a thread on the warfaresim.com site

https://app.box.com/s/otu7y9kwcz739v6phnkb

If you look through the whole ppt, you see some interesting numbers:

14 aircraft - 8 Mirage 2000 and 6 Rafales
7-8 days of engagement from Jan 11 to Jan 19
60 sorties flown...all against ground targets

That comes out to a rate of .6 missions/aircraft a day. The ppt made a point of saying this was an accelerated sortie rate. It was also stressed that there was urgency in getting the militant columns stopped. That is why there was a "surge".

I am sure there were many extenuating circumstances...including supply of the airbases, distance of missions, target availability, and pilot support, etc. But you can see that the French were not even getting a mission a day out of their aircraft.



Krasny -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/9/2013 11:40:59 AM)

I agree that there should be an expedited turnaround for aircraft, especially for aircraft that are on the same mission, so that pilots do not need a briefing and ordnance does not need reprogramming.

Pilot fatigue would need to be modelled, including such things as combat stress and tiredness.



bsq -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/9/2013 6:15:04 PM)

Mali - hmmm not exactly representative is it - COIN and very very asymmetric.



thewood1 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/9/2013 6:29:31 PM)

I think that was a point I made. But still a lot of good info on sortie rates.



bsq -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/9/2013 6:40:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I think that was a point I made. But still a lot of good info on sortie rates.

Granted, but where logistics are in place and the location is not austere indeed in the case of a carrier it is the same as an MOB, then 6 hours is excessive for even a sustained rate. The other option, used IRL, is to increase the number of aircraft to allow for 'depressed' sortie rates (per airframe) in order to keep the tempo going according to the needs of the operation. Whilst this would work on land, not sure it's an option at sea.



Gratch1111 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/9/2013 7:20:46 PM)

I remember seeing a special on Israeli Airforce during 6 day war and If I recall correctly they had during the 60īs worked on getting the rearming and refuelling times down from several hours to about 30 min, and that was one of the major reasons to why they were successful.



Primarchx -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/9/2013 9:30:20 PM)

True, but that is not representative of sustained combat ops. It's also 40 years ago with an elite air force (not that you can't play them in Command!).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gratch11

I remember seeing a special on Israeli Airforce during 6 day war and If I recall correctly they had during the 60īs worked on getting the rearming and refuelling times down from several hours to about 30 min, and that was one of the major reasons to why they were successful.




bsq -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/9/2013 11:51:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

True, but that is not representative of sustained combat ops. It's also 40 years ago with an elite air force (not that you can't play them in Command!).



2 weeks plus is sustained, the time periods here are nothing of the sort. Most of these 6 hour issues are in scenarios lasting 24 - 48 hours.



Primarchx -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/10/2013 12:15:26 AM)

You can't assume that each time. The scenario being played may only be part of a wider, larger campaign.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

True, but that is not representative of sustained combat ops. It's also 40 years ago with an elite air force (not that you can't play them in Command!).



2 weeks plus is sustained, the time periods here are nothing of the sort. Most of these 6 hour issues are in scenarios lasting 24 - 48 hours.




opfor06 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/10/2013 1:01:45 AM)

I think that there are three issues in terms of game play spinning around here:

1- There is a bug of some sort that sends a ready aircraft into a six hour ready cycle at times. It may have been fixed in the newest release. The result is often a screwed up mission with one or more sorties sitting on the ground while the rest loiter around waiting.

2- Re-arming an aircraft that already has a loadout takes 6 hours and it is felt that is too long. I would submit that it is not too long based on what has to occur to re-mission that aircraft. The aircraft may have to be moved. The current load has to be removed safely and stowed. The new loadout has to be brought up from the armory after it is assembled and checked. The load out has to be mated with anything it needs fitted before mounting (ie fins, etc). The loadout has to be mounted and checked again. The planes systems have to be set up for the new loadout and checked. The pilots have to be given new briefings on the target, target and route enemy defenses, the flight paths, supporting elements, emergency procedures, radio call signs and freqs. The pilots have to recheck/preflight their aircraft. The flight and "deck" operations crew have to accommodate this new change within the existing orderly chaos of flight operations. If the mission is a CAS mission that is constantly repeated, a turn around can be very quick. These are the types of missions that are often cited for the historically quick turnarounds. The pilots are already briefed and the routes etc are already known. They are basically flying the same route to a point where they are told to attack X type of target at X location that is within a set geographical area. They are not completely changing their mission and attack profiles.

3- Command is lacking a planning segment the air mission creation process. We can not get into the planing of what gets automatically readied or launched first, when the mission should be on target etc. From the Air mission creation window we have some serious lack of information issues.

The hardest choices for a command staff on a carrier is what is readied and when because if they want to change things it will take a long time to accomplish and put their ship at more risk. Land bases have more options but different challenges.



BipBip -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/10/2013 4:41:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

You can't assume that each time. The scenario being played may only be part of a wider, larger campaign.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

True, but that is not representative of sustained combat ops. It's also 40 years ago with an elite air force (not that you can't play them in Command!).



2 weeks plus is sustained, the time periods here are nothing of the sort. Most of these 6 hour issues are in scenarios lasting 24 - 48 hours.




Each argument seem irrelevant from your point of view...

Anyway, There could be a slider around the idea of "readiness" or "war effort" to be able to set up scenario with fast turnover of the assets, and other with a slower tempo.
We could also think about a "crash prepare" button that would make the ground personnel to hurry to work on an aircraft, with the side-effect of having the aircraft grounded for several hours after its mission and thus simulate the aftermath of such a quick preparation (doing the operations that were due to be made before the mission, etc...).
There could even be an evolution of the ready times during the scenario : a nation could start "unprepared" and then rush to save themselves, or another start prepared for a blietzkrieg and have prepare times that come to be longer and longer when operation lasts some time, as if its logistic lanes were not able to sustain the war effort.

But sticking to the book (ie time between 2 missions in a harrier = 6 hrs) is perhaps not the best choice...

And I do a "+1" to the remark of Boochar about the bug of the aircraft sometimes reverting to 6hrs before being ready... an immersion killer.



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