RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (Full Version)

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opfor06 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/15/2013 7:28:40 PM)

Sinner- there seems to be a bug that causes that behavior. If you launch the group and then assign the mission you do not see that behavior. The aircraft launch fine unless there is a mission.

bsq- the ground crews have already been working for hours getting the initial mission off the ground. I am not an expert on exactly what goes on but there are a lot of tasks that are required for the ordinance to be moved and readied. Other logistics like feeding the crews, rest plan, moving parts and equipment. They may work on getting down aircraft repaired, pull guard duty, pull other duty like settng up quarters etc.

I would say that some mission loadouts could be less than six hours. For instance iron bombs or rocket pods. Perhaps if the mission is keeping the same mission load out it should not be 6 hours either. Both things should be fairly easy program (easy for me to say).



RoryAndersonCDT -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/16/2013 6:22:01 AM)

I've tried to recreate the issue; have not experienced the bug using the current patch. It certainly isn't desired behavior.

I think we are discussing two separate things: one is a software bug I've been unable to recreate; and the other is balancing the amount of time required for readying aircraft.

I do think that the software bug should be fixxed (and it seems to be currently, as I'm unable to recreate).

I also know that it does take an unexpected amount of time to prepare an aircraft. I'm happy with the way the ready times are balanced currently; possibly with a game mechanic for shortening the ready time in exchange for some trade offs.



DoctorHaider -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (10/16/2013 6:40:31 PM)



quote:


This shouldn't happen. Can you mention a concrete example? (A save would be great).


I've attached the save. There are 4 Harriers with "Falklands Terror CAP" loadout and the Ready status on the Hermes CV currently. BUT if you launch them as group, only some Harriers actually launches, others begin the 6-hour cycle of rearming again.

This save is for the "Malvinas. The Pincer" beta-scenario.



Dimitris -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (12/29/2013 12:03:57 PM)

Thanks a lot for that save. Finally got the opportunity to examine it at length, and it helped tremendously.

Okay, what is happening here is that as the 4 SHars are preparing to take off and are in the elevators, another one is just landing. The air boss is trying to clear out the runway as soon as possible, so he takes the initiative to send some of the aircraft back to the hangar.

Applied a number of modifications to the air boss AI to resolve this, and now it works much better. Watch the release notes of the upcoming Build 481.

Thanks!



mrfeizhu -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (12/30/2013 11:56:24 AM)

in the book Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East
by Michael B. Oren they talked about the turn around time of the IDF's Air force and it was 30 minutes, and they trained for years to do this, but the jets were less complex than. SO i don't know if they can still do it in 30 minutes.



Blu3wolf -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (12/30/2013 2:28:58 PM)

IDF F-16s could probably do a half hour turn around for a fighter sweep or BARCAP type mission. maybe an hour or two for a strike mission, as long as it wasnt the same pilots.



StellarRat -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (12/30/2013 5:53:23 PM)

Someone mentioned that weapon programming took a sigificant amount of time. I wonder if running the exact same loadout should improve the turnaround time? It seems to me that throwing the same number and type of iron bombs on a jet with the same fusing as the previous sortie should be quicker than trying to change to laser bombs that need a designator pod and other changes to the configuration.



bsq -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (12/30/2013 6:15:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

Someone mentioned that weapon programming took a sigificant amount of time. I wonder if running the exact same loadout should improve the turnaround time? It seems to me that throwing the same number and type of iron bombs on a jet with the same fusing as the previous sortie should be quicker than trying to change to laser bombs that need a designator pod and other changes to the configuration.

Subsequent reloads should be quicker, not only becuase the same parameters are used but also because the armourers etc are prepping loads whilst the prior mission is still in the air, therefore all that really needs to happen is for the weapons to be jacked up onto the pylons and the status checks to be run... Don't think this takes 6 hours, but thats IMO. Also any targeting pods/ecm etc should still be bolted to the aircraft, these dont need loading again. Also dumb bombs should take less time than smart weapons, but there you go.



Dimitris -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (12/30/2013 6:40:15 PM)

Just as a reminder: The ready times cover a lot more than simply arming & fueling the aircraft.



StellarRat -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (12/31/2013 8:57:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Just as a reminder: The ready times cover a lot more than simply arming & fueling the aircraft.

Surely hitting the same target again with the same loadout couldn't take nearly the prep time though, right?



Dimitris -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (1/1/2014 7:21:12 AM)

No, it wouldn't.

So let's start tracking which aircraft is assigned to which target, so that it gets a "no need to relearn the flight plan and attack details" bonus.

Let's keep track of the available air crew and remember which pilot flew which mission, since obviously pilots are men not machines and they cannot fly 12 missions per day; either multiple crews will share the same aircraft or we have to reduce the sortie rate of that specific plane.

Let's also keep track of the available ground crew on the base/carrier, since this make a tremendous difference on turnaround times. Preferably use an authentic man-hours-based model so that we can model surges and the like. Of course this will require going back to every single scenario, every single air facility entry in the DB and every .inst file and inputting the nominal crew capacity but let's not worry about details like that.

Also let's not forget differences on airbase/carrier layout, not all taxiways and elevators are alike so must account for that too.

Oh, and once I saw on a video multiple B-52s taking off at 15 sec intervals during a practice alert so obviously this should be the baseline.

See where this is going?



Blu3wolf -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (1/1/2014 7:38:16 AM)

well, for forces that have a pilot per plane, that kind of turn around seems fair to me.

if you have more than a pilot per plane, you can get much faster turnarounds than that.



Apocal -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (1/1/2014 12:17:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blu3wolf

well, for forces that have a pilot per plane, that kind of turn around seems fair to me.

if you have more than a pilot per plane, you can get much faster turnarounds than that.


Getting a half-hour turnaround for modern carrier fighters with air-to-air and only six hours for strike is already being really lenient. It leads to maximum effort surge rates being routinely surpassed in completely average scenarios.



deepdive -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (1/1/2014 12:21:44 PM)

Playing Down town and an F-4C Heavy ATA loudout on an land base, 30 min. ready time, an F-4B on an carrier , 4 hours ready time for the same loudout?, i would have given them both 1 hour ready time for that loudout, and half an hour for light ATA loudout. but thats mine opinion

Bjørn



CV60 -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (1/1/2014 8:59:04 PM)

http://grandlogistics.blogspot.com/2009/06/during-six-week-long-liberation-of.html

The above website gives some sortie rates from various airforces during various conflicts. None of these were for sustained/high intensity operations, but they may be a useful benchmark for what can be sustained over a period of time.



Rudd -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (1/1/2014 10:55:08 PM)

[sm=fighting0056.gif][sm=fighting0056.gif]



Rudd -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (1/1/2014 11:08:57 PM)

Sorry, a little childish, but CV60s link and Sunburns statement closes the case for me



Apocal -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (1/2/2014 1:46:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudd
Sorry, a little childish, but CV60s link and Sunburns statement closes the case for me


There is still a case to be made for enhancing the aircraft readiness system so there can be a player-driven tradeoff between sustained sortie rate and surge rate, with all the real-life tradeoffs therein. However I strongly suspect some players will gripe equally much when their F-35 is grounded for two days after back-to-back long range strike missions.



deepdive -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (1/2/2014 9:16:25 AM)

Yes, thanks to CV60 for that link, but my point is for ATA missions. All those missions in that link is for total missions/campains.

Bjørn



mrfeizhu -> RE: 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier??? (1/2/2014 10:09:04 AM)

play the game in the editor , so when your ready to rearm your planes rearm them at what every time you think is right. I cant see a Chinese carrier reaming a plane with a similar load as an American one at the same rate. ( but than again they just seem to have 2 planes at the most on their carrier) But on the other hand the game should not turn into the sims where every factor is taken into account.



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