Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters.

Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (Full Version)

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GBS -> Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 2:30:39 PM)
I mean in CMANO. I remember games in past years where firing two AIM 120s was money. Now these fighters just turn perpendicular to the incoming missile and shrug it off like a pesky fly....especially Flankers. In one scenarios I sent 6 Dutch F16s, which I thought were pretty good fighters, to take on two Venezuelan Flankers. Fired 24 AIM 120s and got one Flanker. I of course lost all the F16s. In another scenario playing as India I fired an entire magazine of Grizzly AA missiles at two South African fighters (forget the make)and missed with ALL. I finally got one with AA fire when it came too close but my ship was left totally defenseless except at very close range. It was soon sunk. Seems to be, based on how CMANO plays, that offensive capabilities of AA missles need to go quite a ways to catch up with the Fighters defensive abilities. The best defense for an F16 against a Flanker is RUN LIKE HELL!

Dimitris -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 2:37:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GBS In one scenarios I sent 6 F16s, which I thought were pretty good fighters, to take on two Flankers. Fired 24 AIM 120s and got one Flanker. I'd love to see the AALog of that. Usually there's a good reason for everything that happens. quote: The best defense for an F16 against a Flanker is RUN LIKE HELL! Or don't go up against it in the first place unless really necessary. There are alternatives to killing a fighter _in the air_.

GBS -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 2:47:13 PM)
[ Or don't go up against it in the first place unless really necessary. There are alternatives to killing a fighter _in the air_. [/quote] That is why I sent 6 on 2! Does the US have any fighter to counter a Flanker?

Dimitris -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 2:52:29 PM)
Depends a lot on the Flanker variant (a Su-35S is a whole different story than an early Su-27). Generally you want at the very least an updated F-15 (preferably with AESA) or ideally an F-22, and lots of AMRAAMs. You also want to stack the deck in your favor as much as possible (AWACS, tankers, jammers etc. and kill the enemy's counterparts).

ExMachina -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 2:59:46 PM)
quote: In one scenarios I sent 6 Dutch F16s, which I thought were pretty good fighters, to take on two Venezuelan Flankers. Fired 24 AIM 120s and got one Flanker. Just curious: were you playing at 1 second time compression with Hi-Fi mode "on"? (EDIT: asking because Baloogan reported here that he's noticed problems with some A-A engagements when Hi-Fi mode is not enabled)

GBS -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 3:09:07 PM)
When the missiles draw close I always switch to HiFi mode and watch the missiles just disappear which I assume means they detonate harmlessly.

ExMachina -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 3:23:31 PM)
quote: When the missiles draw close I always switch to HiFi mode and watch the missiles just disappear which I assume means they detonate harmlessly. Just to be clear, when you say you "switch" to HiFi, do you mean that you actually go into the game options menu and ensure that the check box is checked? Just curious...

GBS -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 4:26:31 PM)
No. I always have that checked, what I mean is I just slow the action down from, say 5 sec. to 1 sce.

RoryAndersonCDT -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 5:41:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExMachina quote: In one scenarios I sent 6 Dutch F16s, which I thought were pretty good fighters, to take on two Venezuelan Flankers. Fired 24 AIM 120s and got one Flanker. Just curious: were you playing at 1 second time compression with Hi-Fi mode "on"? (EDIT: asking because Baloogan reported here that he's noticed problems with some A-A engagements when Hi-Fi mode is not enabled) For missile engagements it doesn't seem to have an effect. Its where aircraft get into a dogfight that Hi-Fi mode really helps resolve combat.

Dimitris -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 5:56:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Baloogan For missile engagements it doesn't seem to have an effect. Its where aircraft get into a dogfight that Hi-Fi mode really helps resolve combat. When you say "helps resolve combat", do you mean that in non-HiFi mode, weapons miss more frequently than in HiFi mode? Or that the animation is far smoother in HiFi ?

Showtime 100_MatrixForum -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 5:57:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GBS I mean in CMANO. I remember games in past years where firing two AIM 120s was money. Now these fighters just turn perpendicular to the incoming missile and shrug it off like a pesky fly....especially Flankers. In one scenarios I sent 6 Dutch F16s, which I thought were pretty good fighters, to take on two Venezuelan Flankers. Fired 24 AIM 120s and got one Flanker. I of course lost all the F16s. In another scenario playing as India I fired an entire magazine of Grizzly AA missiles at two South African fighters (forget the make)and missed with ALL. I finally got one with AA fire when it came too close but my ship was left totally defenseless except at very close range. It was soon sunk. Seems to be, based on how CMANO plays, that offensive capabilities of AA missles need to go quite a ways to catch up with the Fighters defensive abilities. The best defense for an F16 against a Flanker is RUN LIKE HELL! It certainly doesn't help that aircraft seem to be able to evade as if they had maximum energy every time. Agility doesn't decrease as they expend energy while evading, or if it does, it's not nearly as much of an issue as it should be (and neither is awareness of the exact distance and bearing of the incoming missile -- which is crucial to timing your evasive maneuvers!). Trying to go between Falcon BMS and Command always throws me off, haha; AAMs in BMS are pretty deadly, especially the AMRAAM and R-77, but in Command (vs agile aircraft) it feels like I'm shooting FFARs instead! That said, I'm still having a lot of fun with it. This is just an area I'd like to see some refinement in in the future.

Tomcat84 -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 8:06:40 PM)
Yeah I've brought up that agility affects it too much, and that theres no penalty for depleting energy after multiple maneuvers / or when carrying bombs etc. It is a known point and should be worked on in future. In the meantime it is my opinion that setting the Proficiency slider to the lowest setting (on both sides) generates more realistic PH for modern A/A missiles and I will be doing this in the scenarios I am building.

SSN754planker -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 10:12:47 PM)
Where are you guys getting this proficiency slider at? Is this in a closed build?

henri51 -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 10:33:41 PM)
The Flankers were presumably SU-27s and not SU-33s, the latter being for Soviet aircraft carriers. Note that the SU-27s were designed to fight against F-15s and not F-16s which are much less capable than F-15s. So although I am no expert, I would guess that sending F-16s against Su-27s is an unequal fight in the Flankers' advantage. But I would guess that it would also depend on which sophisticated equipment the Russians put on aircraft sold to foreigners. For example US aircraft sold to other countries are generally not equipped with the best electronic equipment available to US aircraft.However I would like to hear and expert opinion on the ability of Flankers to avoid AMRAAM missiles (AIM-120), which are pretty sophisticated and even have the capability of homing in on jamming signals. As a matter of fact, I don't understand how such a missile can be avoided except by maneuvering or perhaps a decoy, because the missile is either following its radar lock-on or the jamming signal that unlocked it... Thinking about it, I guess that a parachute-dropped jammer could fool the missile into attacking the jammer, assuming that Flankers are equipped with such a sophisticated decoy.

jdkbph -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/7/2013 11:59:52 PM)
Why do you assume the 16 is much less capable than the 15? Both carry AIM9 and AIM120, and once in contact with the enemy, any advantage, such as range, the 15 might have is irrelevant. But to the main point... That an Su27 in CMANO can consistently dominate in a fight with a contemporary model F16 (and I'm taking the OP's word on that... I haven't experienced it myself yet) - let alone with a 2 or 3 to 1 disadvantage - suggests that there's an error or oversight in the DB. IMHO of course. JD

henri51 -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 12:19:21 AM)
Jdk, it was my impression that the F15 electronics (jamming etc) are much superior to those of the F-16, but I could be wrong, since this I read this on Wikipedia...

ExMachina -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 1:55:38 AM)
FWIW, I just made a quick test scenario of 3 F16s vs 1 Flanker (not sure exactly which variants you used). Fired 2 AMRAAM at ~20nm at the Flanker and the first one hit and killed it. So with that simple test, I'd guess that either a) you had really bad luck b) there's a DB problem with the specific variant(s) you were using or c) there were extenuating circumstances in the scenario that were somehow favoring the Flankers over the F16/AMRAAAM combo.

jdkbph -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 2:08:23 AM)
I seem to recall that with the F16C/D variants (Block 25s) the USAF had more or less abandoned the low cost LWF idea and added a bunch of upgrades - particularly in the avionics and combat systems. By the time the Block 50/52s were rolling off the line they were pretty much on par with the F15C in that department. It's been a while since I've read up on this stuff so I may be mistaken about the details, but I believe this is essentially correct. Can anyone confirm or correct me about this? JD

Wiz33 -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 3:51:35 AM)
Yep. late model C/D have about 95% of the electronics of a 15C except for range and payload.

navwarcol -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 4:25:03 AM)
I think that the next patch which will incorporate pilot skill, will have an effect here also... the primary way US pilots plan to defeat an enemy is better training, and that should be a factor with this next patch.

RoryAndersonCDT -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 5:00:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sunburn quote: ORIGINAL: Baloogan For missile engagements it doesn't seem to have an effect. Its where aircraft get into a dogfight that Hi-Fi mode really helps resolve combat. When you say "helps resolve combat", do you mean that in non-HiFi mode, weapons miss more frequently than in HiFi mode? Or that the animation is far smoother in HiFi ? In non-HiFi mode 2 aircraft who are circling to try to unmask their cannons at certain speeds just circle around eachother until one runs out of fuel. I saw it happen with F-18s during one of my episodes, I'll try to create a scenario which exhibits this behavior and post it as a bug in the development forum.

RoryAndersonCDT -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 5:13:33 AM)
Posted at http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3460878&mpage=1&key=�

Broncepulido -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 7:26:55 AM)
The ultimate site about F-16 variants, weapons and ECM gear: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions.html

Broncepulido -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 7:31:25 AM)
And here a very good and comprehensive site (but in the lovely Brazilian Portuguese!!!), recopilatory of almost every open source data about AAMs, showing missile type-by-type historical low probability to hit/to kill. I think probably the same outcome with AIM-120 against a better prepared enemy and with better ECM and campaing preparation than Iraq or Serbia: http://sistemasdearmas.com.br/

Broncepulido -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 7:33:28 AM)
In short, at the bottom of this page, the AIM-120 historical PK is between 40%-60%: http://sistemasdearmas.com.br/aam/amraam3desemp.html

mrfeizhu -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 10:09:57 AM)
It seems that ecm or maneuverability is over rated for aircraft, missiles just don't seem to hit them, (Sam's and AA missiles). Hit rates are really a subjective number. How many Air to air missiles are fired in anger? not many, in test there are a lot more, but tests are tests. The game will crunch numbers and come up with the answer it is programmed to give. The game is a game its not a simulation of real life, no game can be. Its the programmers universe and the books or information he uses to get numbers from. But all war games are like that, If you play war in the Pacific you know you have the atomic bomb and B-29's coming towards the end of the war. Is the game fun to play and make you think? yes of course it does. Is it worth the money it cost? yes of course. After playing the game for a while, if I were a government in the programmers universe , I would just buy submarines

JCR -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 10:39:40 AM)
If you look at even modern dogfights, AAM hit rate isn't 100% How many AMRAAMs did they fire at the MiGs over Serbia in 1999? And not all US vs Iraq encounters resulted in the MiGs being killed, sometimes they just escaped.

Flankerk -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 11:19:52 AM)
Is this before or after the proficiency is taken into account? As far as I can see that resolves this one. I'm also not all that convinced that aircraft are overated. Air to air I agree there aren't as many combats we can draw upon, but on surface to air, I think we have some good examples. I seem to recall a YouTube video showing an F-18 I think dodging mutliple incoming SAM's over an extended period. Must admit I especially like the fact that any of my fighters running out of missiles and going RTB seems to attract a straggler trying (and usually succeeding) to pick them off with a rear aspect shot.

JCR -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 11:28:54 AM)
Not so much proficiency, but energy conservation. Radical evasive maneuvers take energy, meaning the pilot sacrifices either airspeed or altitude or both to evade. Depending on his airspeed and altitude, there is a finite amount of energy he can use for evasion. For example take a fighter flying low and fast and getting shot at by a missile. The pilot doesn't have altitude but speed, so he will make some sort of radical turn to evade. It succeeds. However when he is engaged a second time, he is low and slow because the turn bled off his speed, so he can't evade the next missile.

ExMachina -> RE: Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters. (11/8/2013 11:48:08 AM)
Modeling aircraft energy sounds ideal and about a month ago CMANO developers were considering such an idea. Sunburn said in this thread quote: The solution we are considering revolves around the concept of bleeding energy (primarily kinematic but also potential) at every evasion, gradually recovering it with enough time, so there is an incentive to attack a unit with successive blows in order to exhaust its ability to evade. I hope they follow through with the idea [:)]

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