RE: sample combat T29 (Full Version)

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Tom Hunter -> RE: sample combat T29 (12/19/2013 2:06:54 PM)

@821 Bobo, I have used this tactic before, if you stack three units you can certainly stop the repair of a rail line you do not want repaired, but you cannot always steer the RR engineer to the one you want fixed.

I find it really funny that I have 11,000 armed men stopping the RR engineers from conducting a useless repair. If the rest of the Red army was that determined the Germans would still be in Poland.



jwolf -> RE: sample combat T29 (12/19/2013 3:46:41 PM)

quote:

I find it really funny that I have 11,000 armed men stopping the RR engineers from conducting a useless repair.


Well said!  Your comment shows very clearly the irony of this part of the WITE design.  It's only frustrating for players to have units you can't control be displayed on the map.  Either the player should have some direct control over them, or their function should be abstracted into the background.

If a few of those "11000 armed men" were NKVD that would stop the problem in a hurry!



Tom Hunter -> Red Army at the Gates of Tula (12/19/2013 11:54:30 PM)

Not that Tula in itself is particularly important, but it flanks Moscow from the South. I'm thinking very seriously of forming two shock armies right behind the Bryansk front to come at Moscow from the South. Should I put them in Bryansk or keep them with Stavka? Bryansk is under Timosheko, Stavka is under Zhukov.

I'm fairly happy with attack optimization. Saper222 habit of putting regiments on the front allowed me to bring several divisions to 5 wins, I think they need 11 to start converting to guards. I also slapped another infantry division twice, which ought to beat up its moral a bit, and certainly raises mine.

The Red Airforce continues to join the ground attacks on a larger scale, you can see that in the screenshot. Part of Saper222's defensive strategy is putting airbase forward in the (correct) expectation that the Luftwaffe will fly in and (the no longer correct) expectation that the bombing will mess up my odds and win him the battle instead of me.

The only real downside of this offensive is time, this took me 4 or 5 hours over two days to move.

[image]local://upfiles/14870/FFAE775EA04A496B8272A9A12D5AF679.jpg[/image]



Tom Hunter -> RE: Red Army at the Gates of Tula (12/20/2013 12:30:51 AM)

Saper222 has given me a small chance of pocketing 2 infantry divisions and a regiment near Moscow. For new players I want to show how I am attacking, and if you’re a veteran and you see things missing please chime in.

In this case I have to use two armies, because I am coming at a hex behind the original front line. 43rd army is coming in from the North, and 4th from the south. 4th is commanded by a 4mech 6 inf with an init of 5 and no hair (Maslennikov) 43rd is exactly the same (Kurochkin) what are they doing, cloning these guys? If you look at the map you’ll see that I could get 4th Cav into action, and two inf and a cav divisions from 43rd. One of the inf is the 258 rifle, which has 12000 men. Each attacking stack has a full stack behind it on Reserve, inf moral is in the 40s, cav in the 50s and one of the armored brigades is in the 50s as well. All the stacks marked R have full reserve status and at least 5 movement points.

The night witches have already bombed and scored a hit. Daylight bombers follow and hit an art, I did not run the attack at a level where I could see the details, but if I got a gun it was likely a good attack. That is the situation before I send in the attack.


[image]local://upfiles/14870/A1295C41974A4230A728C88DCB6F5550.jpg[/image]



Tom Hunter -> RE: Red Army at the Gates of Tula (12/20/2013 12:42:19 AM)

A total of 5 divisions and 6 support units joined the battle. I shot down 7 German bombers, which is a win in of its self. 5 on map units gain a victory, improving my chances of getting guards later in the game. Saper222 has to counter attack to save the forward units, and my armies still have momentum so its possible the German divisions will be pocketed and surrender T31 or 32. The best possible results would be Saper222 committing too many troops to save them and multiplying his losses.

I'm not going to analyze to many attacks this way, but I thought it would be helpful to see how its done. Note that none of the reserve units joined, but sometimes they do.



[image]local://upfiles/14870/A70D07A4E4DC498BB0525B6604AB5DBE.jpg[/image]



Tom Hunter -> RE: Red Army at the Gates of Tula (12/20/2013 1:16:38 AM)

I bombed the main fighter base near Moscow before a round of attacks. We had a big furball, and I guess the Luftwaffe escorts were busy, because the 111Hs showed up without them, and found some old familiar foes.

This move my air loss ratio from 1:7 to 1:5 this turn, which is back in reasonable territory, and I am not done attacking.

[image]local://upfiles/14870/15B850BFFA554900ADCFBD2B8D722721.jpg[/image]

The attack after this one shot down another 15 bombers. It seems if you pound the losewaffles long enough they get tired and start flying the wrong stuff.



jwolf -> RE: Red Army at the Gates of Tula (12/20/2013 2:28:19 PM)

Too bad Moscow looks like it will be out of reach.  But you're doing well with the winter offensive.  Do be careful once you get to February the Axis forces will recover quite a bit, and then in March they can hit hard.  But enjoy the winter while you can!



Tom Hunter -> RE: Red Army at the Gates of Tula (12/22/2013 4:59:41 PM)

Turn 30

The Red Army advance continues, but a combination of the fading winter bonus and distance from the rail head is slowing progress. I’m starting to switch from a focus on ground gaining hasty attacks to a focus on getting two or three stacks together to hit the Germans with 60,000 or more troops. That seems to produce a lot more casualties than the one to one attacks, and it gives a lot of units a victory, which gets me more units closer to guards. My first guards unit appeared this turn, there are a number of units pushing up past 9 victories, so I think I will have a bunch more before winter ends.

I’m trying hard to steer the RR engineers. It does seem that they want to repair North-South rail more than they want to repair east west. This turn I sent a bunch of the guys working the N-S back to HQ, and blocked the lines they were working on. I am hoping this puts some more effort into the lines I need. Some of my main axis of advance have seen 14 and 18 hexes of progress, but only one or two hexes of rail repair from T22 to T30. If this works I will report back on it.

The game continues to be very strange on the casualty and replacement front. The Red Army has increased in size a lot since T15, and the Germans have shrunk a little bit, Saper222s armor is back so he is not losing tanks, we seem to both be shooting down all the new aircraft production, and I am slowly grinding up his artillery. I don’t think I am killing enough stuff to win but at least some stuff is gone.

Soviet Change since T15 German Change since T15 Axis allies Change since T15
Men 5.7 1.6 3.14 -0.16 1.6 -0.2
Art 52500 17500 32000 -1000 13274 -726
Tanks 2600 500 3000 500 330 -170
Planes 6800 300 2900 100 912 -188

Numbers of troops are in millions all others are what you see. The Slovak airforce is hiding, and I run all planes with moral below 45 back to reserve.

On the map I am threatening Tula and Moscow with forces at the edge of both cities, further North I am somehow threatening Kalinin, and there are troops just a few hexes from Kharkov and Stalino. The Kharkov attack is way past its railhead and running out of steam, but I get the impression Saper222 did not run any trains there either, so I might just take the place. Near Moscow I am starting to pound Sapper and the railheads are closer. Stalino is very much up in the air, we both have a lot of troops and are counter attacking each other vigorously every turn.

I'm starting to deploy troops and forts at various places that I think battles are likely. I'm planning to continue to hammer Saper222 in areas that have good rail support and relatively weak Germans during the snow, and pull back to railheads where I am far from my own supply.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Red Army at the Gates of Tula (12/22/2013 7:10:02 PM)

Don't assign shock armies to Bryansk Front, keep them under STAVKA. Bryansk Front tends to be located between Western and Voronezh-Southwestern/Central Fronts which will have more important roles then Bryansk Front.



Tom Hunter -> RE: Red Army at the Gates of Tula (12/22/2013 9:09:55 PM)

@M60A3TTS

Are you saying this because there is a unique quality to Bryansk front? Or because you usually put it in a place that is less important? I asked about this a few posts ago no one said anything, what is the logic of putting them under STAVKA?



Tom Hunter -> Rail Repair management (12/22/2013 9:11:44 PM)

As posted I am trying to steer the RR repair guys to the places that are important, while they desperately try to subvert the war effort. No wonder Stalin was always looking for spies!

I put the blocking force on the last hex of RR in this pic, and they got by it:



[image]local://upfiles/14870/0B191FC15FAC4688B233CED987B07F2F.jpg[/image]



Tom Hunter -> Rail Repair management 2 (12/22/2013 9:14:53 PM)

I also sent a number of units back to headquarters, some of them came back in places that are much more helpful, like on the road to Stalino, which the RR repair abandoned for a while.

One more thing for the Soviet player to watch.



[image]local://upfiles/14870/48310297B82B45B5ABBFCCAC19A6A672.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: Rail Repair management 2 (12/22/2013 10:40:38 PM)

My Bryansk Fronts tend to end up opposite the Pripet marshes, which is a geographic dead end. Also that front tends to see less fighting in general, so it doesn't give as much experience to armies under it. My shock armies usually get combined with tank armies in '42 and together to form a sort of shock front once southwestern front arrives later in the year. But people do things differently. I think the maneuver armies with STAVKA initially allows you to move them about freely where front armies tend to remain in the same general area.



Flaviusx -> RE: Rail Repair management 2 (12/22/2013 10:50:53 PM)

I also tend to keep shock armies under STAVKA control because I tend to think of them as strategic level assets, either to push forward an offensive, or as a fire brigade to respond to one. They can wind up anywhere along the front depending on circumstances.

It's a lot easier to shuttle them around the front line where needed when they aren't tied down to any single Front. Reassigning armies gives me serious sticker shock.



Tom Hunter -> T32 other stuff (12/23/2013 10:12:39 PM)

I’ve been working on building up my wins to get myself some guards units. I’ve only been pushing at this for 4 or 5 turns, and Saper222 often withdraws to limit the number of my attacks. You can see the results in the table, above 8 wins is easy to see, I have 14 units at 8, another 14 at 7, and 19 at 6. It’s turn 32, so it will be snow (not blizzard, change over is T27) before the units below 6 wins start to get up into the 10 or 11 victories range which makes conversion to guards likely. I have adjusted my attack style and focused more on getting good odds and involving as many units as possible in wins. Still if I had really understood this I would have started earlier. Another thing for the Soviet player to keep track of.

One of the things I noticed while starting on this, the Leningrad front seems to win a lot of battles, it’s a side show, and I keep smacking the Finns around.

Now that we are half way through winter feel I can start to comment on the hard and soft winter discussion. Saper222 has used a careful set of counter attacks and withdrawls and though he has lost a significant amount of territory his casualties have been light compared to historical. If you are not using house rules to constrain the Germans then I would suggest playing with the hard winter, because its not actually that hard. If you are using house rules that stop the big Lvov or other moves I can see why a German player might want a softer winter.

[image]local://upfiles/14870/F3A3CBDD3C9B444893E27C5A080C4346.jpg[/image]



Tom Hunter -> T32 near Moscow (12/23/2013 10:25:28 PM)

Near Moscow Saper222 seems to have me held infront of the city a couple of large deliberate attacks failed this turn. North and South of the city his troop concentrations and forts are not as strong, and I have been able to hit him at 2 to 1 or greater pushing back stacks of one or two divisions. You can see I’m on the outskirts of Kalinin in the North. I’ve pretty much switched focus from gaining territory to pounding Germans, I’m ahead of my railhead, Saper222 is close to his, so if I do not advance deliberately I get counter attacked and sometimes routed.

Across the front as a whole Saper222 launched 11 successful attacks and I launched 18, he had no failures he held my attacks three times.


[image]local://upfiles/14870/33A09E03F84D4A3B9FBF49B89EFD0B63.jpg[/image]



Tom Hunter -> T32 near Moscow (12/23/2013 10:42:12 PM)

South of Moscow Tula is looking like a safe bet for the Red Army. Saper222 and I have traded counter attacks here but we are both off the rail net and I have new armies coming into action so I think he will have to fall back. I might even get another German unit, though I suspect he will get away successfully. The green armies to the South are coming North, not driving West. This means they are actually moving a bit closer to the railhead, which is also helping me on this part of the front.

In the air Saper222 has moved up a lot of stuff, and contests just about everything. The results is that I am a little off balance, so I’m starting to move air units from the Southern offensive near Rostov to the North in an effort to unbalance him. Over all I am happy with the air situation, Saper222 shoots down far more of my planes, but there are some air battles that I outright win, and both sides are getting bombed in major attacks instead of the Luftwaffe free for all that happened earlier in the game. Unfortunately the airwar engine seems to reward numerous small flights of bombers, if you send in five raids 10 at a time you get 2 or 3 fighters coming after each raid and they get few kills. If you send 50 with escorts then a bunch of Germans show up and you lose planes. I’m not sure a game is better when it rewards doing small repetitive tasks.


[image]local://upfiles/14870/F6651D70287A41B3AEC57BD382DB1986.jpg[/image]



Tom Hunter -> I've been working on the railroad (12/23/2013 10:51:01 PM)

But not very successfully. This map shows the railhead for most of Russia, as you can see I outran it long ago.

On the bright side there will be a nice big wasteland for Saper222 to march through when the weather changes. I've got 20 RR construction units in play, is that too few?

You can also see the construction units trying to run North South when ever possible, and the line from Stalingrad to Stalino often has no engineer on it all all in spite of my best efforts. It vanished again in T32 after fixing one hex in T31.

Is there a way to see the German rail net? You would think this is something that the combination of spies and air recon would know.

[image]local://upfiles/14870/2D425BEA7BB2475FAA32EC9BA1D9E038.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: I've been working on the railroad (12/24/2013 1:19:21 AM)

My rule of thumb is: 2 RR engineers per front, and 6-12 more assigned directly to STAVKA. 20 is too low imo.

While your methods of steering railroad engineers are clever, I think it is best to beat the problem by brute force and not be using maneuver forces to herd RR engineers around.



Tom Hunter -> RE: I've been working on the railroad (12/24/2013 2:24:28 AM)

I've started adding more, but I think you are right it would be wise to start the winter with closer to 30, maybe a few more. I think the Soviets need a combination of active management, numbers and steering in certain places.



rmonical -> RE: I've been working on the railroad (12/24/2013 4:09:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
My rule of thumb is: 2 RR engineers per front, and 6-12 more assigned directly to STAVKA. 20 is too low imo.

While your methods of steering railroad engineers are clever, I think it is best to beat the problem by brute force and not be using maneuver forces to herd RR engineers around.

Since the Soviets are building a lot of forts, I go with one RR Engineer Brigade per army.



hfarrish -> RE: I've been working on the railroad (12/24/2013 2:15:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

My rule of thumb is: 2 RR engineers per front, and 6-12 more assigned directly to STAVKA. 20 is too low imo.

While your methods of steering railroad engineers are clever, I think it is best to beat the problem by brute force and not be using maneuver forces to herd RR engineers around.



I tend to prefer 4 per Front as an alternative...this seems to get rail cleaned up pretty quick in the sectors that matter regardless of how many veer off into stupid side rail missions.

I also agree on brute force. For starters trying to block them into the right paths is just one more painful level of unnecessary micromanagement on top of what you have to slog through in the game anyway...



Tom Hunter -> T35 nearing the end of the blizzard (12/29/2013 7:47:18 PM)

Question for the group, is T36 the last blizzard turn with snow on T37 or is T37 the last blizzard turn with snow on T38?

Total losses at T35

Axis
Men 877005
Guns 5906
AFV 2533
Air 3282

Soviet
Men 3431806
Guns 48174
AFV 17021
Air 14806

Red Army has 5.9 million men 61,000 guns, 3400 tanks and 7100 planes German army has 3.6 million men, 36,000 guns, 3500 tanks, and 3000 planes. Axis allies add another 1.5 million men, 13,700 guns and 300 or so tanks and maybe 900 to 1000 planes, it appears some of the allied airforces have been pulled back.

I’m not sure how this compares with other games. On the map all the areas that have large Soviet troop concentrations have many forts at 0 and 1, further back I’ve deployed a combination of many units and a few fortified zones to build up defensive lines is my rear areas.

Strategically I want to stay forward during the snow turns that are coming, and then pull back to my rail net during the mud. That will give Saper222 a zone of 10-20 hexes that does not have any German rail at the start of his offensive.

In the air I Saper222 adjusted his strategy brining fighter bases forward to provide more intensive CAP. This started chewing up my airfield bombing raids and began to hurt my pilot quality by slowing the rate of increase in experience. In the last few turns I have concentrated on adding air to ground attacks and hitting units that have no CAP, like the Rumanians that are garrisoning Sevastopol. The change is helping me improve pilot quality again, though both sides over all losses are lower. I have reached the point where the Red Airforce occasionally wins battles straight up, never with equal odds, but a win is a win, and there are times where German attacks or defenses are adversely impacted by Red Airforce control of the sky. Since an important part of Saper222s play is using concentrated airpower I am very happy about this, otherwise he would be pounding me much harder.

Down in the South Saper222 has put a line of 3 infantry division stacks infront of Stalino, and I am finding this impossible to break. He has done the same thing at Tula, and also at Moscow. Near Moscow I have railhead close to the front, and every turn I have been able to defeat one of these stacks, at Tula we hammer each other but my successes are mostly North and South of Saper222s major concentration.

Industry is completely evacuated to a line that runs Gorky, Saratov, Stalingrad. Each of those cities still has some stuff, but this because I want to let some of the factories evacuated earlier repair before I pull the next round of similar factories out.

In the North I have been hammering the Finns, and I am considering sending more troops that way for a drive on Leningrad. The Finnish army is down to 260,000 troops five turns ago it was at 287,000. The armies attacking there are winning a lot of victories, and I am right on my rail lines, so if I keep pushing I think I may pull some Germans up into the area.

The area near Kursk and Kharkov is a railroad wasteland, so I have been sliding the troops there North towards the railheads near Tula and hammering some German infantry on the way. We have reached a point where Saper222 can stop me in many places but not all of them, and I am trying to do what damage I can. I launched 17 successful attacks T25, mostly deliberate, and 4 or five that did not succeed.


[image]local://upfiles/14870/5963801E8A93460DB17488621BC69747.jpg[/image]



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: T35 nearing the end of the blizzard (12/29/2013 9:07:51 PM)

There are 4 blizzard turns in February...after that snow, unless your on random then it could be anything. 4 in December, 5 in January, 4 in February. So I guess 37 is the last Blizzard turn iirc.



Flaviusx -> RE: T35 nearing the end of the blizzard (12/29/2013 9:57:49 PM)

Your numbers are surprisingly high considering. But as the blizzard winds down it's going to get harder to increase them. He'll stop running and start fighting back, not to mention increasing your attrition losses. At some point soon he needs to do this, if he wants to lock you down and keep the Red Army static going into summer at any rate.

I wouldn't slow down on the evac. Get it out of the way ASAP while you have the initiative. Strip everything bare. It will all come online by summer. Sapper loves to abuse the strategic bombing model of this game (which vastly exaggerates the efficiency of these two airforces to conduct such attacks.) He'll happily take whacks at Gorky, Stalingrad and Saratov given the opportunity and reduce their production anyways.




Walloc -> RE: T35 nearing the end of the blizzard (12/29/2013 11:33:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter
Total losses at T35
Air 3282

Soviet
Men 3431806
Guns 48174
AFV 17021
Axis
Men 877005
Guns 5906
AFV 2533

Air 14806

Red Army has 5.9 million men 61,000 guns, 3400 tanks and 7100 planes German army has 3.6 million men, 36,000 guns, 3500 tanks, and 3000 planes. Axis allies add another 1.5 million men, 13,700 guns and 300 or so tanks and maybe 900 to 1000 planes, it appears some of the allied airforces have been pulled back.

I’m not sure how this compares with other games. On the map all the areas that have large Soviet troop concentrations have many forts at 0 and 1, further back I’ve deployed a combination of many units and a few fortified zones to build up defensive lines is my rear areas.



Considering that u as i understand it plays with old blizzard rules. He has taken about as few losses as i ever seen and i been following every AAR since the game was released.
Far lower than historic ofc, and thats is even when ppl with out understanding the differences using the "blütige verluste" which infact doesnt show the real losses as stuff as for example frostbites, sickness, trenchfoot and so on isnt in part of the "blütige verluste" tally.
Sapper being at 3.6m german OOB at this points confirms that.

As i told u earlier the russian side doesnt give historical replacement. Opposite on the german side u get about 1m more Manpower in reinforcement/replacement/not taken into account the leaving, in the first year aka until end of june 42. This means and u can start a 42 campaign too see what the team judged to be the historical end of june 42 OOB.
That the german OOBs number come summer offensive 42 tend to be from inflated to highly inflated. From some where from 3.2 to 3.6-7m from when going worst to going best, until now.
As he alrdy has 3.6m now, tho he prolly has fewer disabled that means fewer kickbacks non the less the influx of reinforcements only start to arrive now. That alone is 600k ish IIRC. Then there is replacements and what comes back as kickbacks and the damaged device rules.
I wouldnt be supprised to see sapper at end june 42 being above 4 mio germans in OOB numbers, very possibly well above.

As the historic OOB numbers are at 2.779k IIRC that essentially historicly speaking. that the german army was in decline Manpower wise had they had to borrow and steal from AGC and AGN to get AGS into a viable offensive state. Having a limited offrensive compared to 41 at the expense at having a fairly static front in 2 of the 3 AGs. Now when u have 4.0m men instead the dynamcis is very different.

Now the in game dynamics is you dont really have to steal and borrow as ur units are in much better shape/state than historic one generally speaking. Also it means hwre u could only assemple 800k-1000k depending on exactly where u make teh cut off for offensive operations/operation blue. Which essentially would mean that after u historiclly would lose 300-400k any offensive would grind to a halt as strength of the offensive formation would fall to a point where offensive operations wouldnt be possible. Ingame terms not having the CV to making succesfull attacks genrally speaking.
Now when u have 4m men. The dynamics are different. It means and u can have a much high offensive punch. Instead of having 800k-100k u have some thing like 2m men. Which means the offensives can be much more comprehensive when compared to historic and the staying power of those offensives are much larger as they can afford to lose much more men being becoming offensively unviable.
Some thing like 1m men buffer instead of 300-400k.

U can just look and compare the numbers to the start of the 41 offensive. Having 4m instead of 3.3m This essentially means u in a better shape to make an offensive as u actullay grow in numbers and having significantly higher OOB numbers. So instead of having the historical dynamic of being an army in decline, u have an army on the rise.(historicly there are only 4 months IIRC where the german OOB numbers are on the rise and 3 of those are in the spring aka rapustisa non operation months of 42 and 43.
And it isnt a question of doing better in game then historic as this is "hardcoded".
There never ever has been a AAR where u have reached the historical OOB numbers and when u do the actual math u get to see that u indeed get around 1m Manpower that historically never was there.
Some one i forget his name keeps talking about WITE being fantasy land but i never seen him mention or complain about this.

So what does that mean for ur game. As ur game has developped its easy. Ur toast. IMHO there isnt really any doubt about how 42 will go.


Does that man that every game with this in mind wins in 42. Obviously not, more on that later. As have been a hot topic as of recent is the "ease" of the russian side of making counter attacks in 41. Alto attention has been made of the 1vs1 rule. Not that the rule in it self isnt odd and highly questionble.
It really isnt the issue. Its the combat system in it self. Even with out the 1to1 rule u could still make many succcesfull attacks tho ofc less. It isnt a result of that rule but a result of the function of how the combat/CV/ and modified CV system works.

Again some one that shall be unnamed actually made among other an analysis of how biased the offensive is in the game some 2 years ago. Its just this facts that people have realized by trial and error and is using to pile up devices to win this counter attacks in 41.
Ofc when this is used by the german side to make unhistoric advances this isnt noted much and certainly get harshed on as u see the soviet conuter attacks gets.
The fact that in effect call it supply, call it a bleeded offensive if u look at the numbers through out operation Blue the soviet army end up stopping the german advance with numbers that isnt particular much high and certainly not many times high than the german and axis allieds number tho they do take more casulties on the way. Is this a possibility to recreate in game?


Any how this facts leads to why u have no chance and ur toast. Sapper either intuiativly as a result of his experience of the game or he has analyzed on this too. AS long as u keep that 4m man on teh offensive and now with much betetr logistics in 42 than in 41 as RR is repaired and teh rules concerning advances into russia and the modifier that goes with that is much less than in 41.
The answer to that and way to stop it has been having to get a much larger army than historical to counter this. In part leading to the run aways to save ur army as u cant rely on the lacking replacement to make up ur losses.
Trying in 42 to make carpets of units to slow down/bleed the axis motorized units MP. I highly doubt u will be in a posistion to do this tho.

I dont see ur OOB rise at a pace that can actually more than just keep pace with the rise of the axis OOB numbers. The axis side total OOB numbers will be close to your total OOB numbers come summer.



Now i said why dont all germans win in 42. It fairly simple if u take that 1 mio extra men and distributate it evenly over 100 hexes from N to S it makes no difference at all. Far far to many ppl get into a far to defensive mentally not using the extra men offensivly in a concentrated manner and doesnt have as good as 41 as sapper had.
Non the less if u spread that 1 mio man over 100 hexes and try to defend. U need a Peltion isk/STEF78 type defense to get a fighting chance on defense else teh extra men simply isnt gona do any difference cuz of the inherit offenensiv combat system bias.
By giving away the intiative they also give away the inherit offensive advantages.
The exact same mechanics behind the succsfull russian counter attacks in 41 can be and is to some extend used by the german side.
It seems far to few really understands these and take fully advantage of them. Those that do well u can see it in AARs.

Not that is has any bearing on ur game. Recently the "mild blizzard" has been introduced. But in a way and it happens all to often apparently ppl realy cant see tricle down and causality effects before it happens to them apparently.
It seems no one has thot about what happens when u introduced the mild blizzard effects, with lower losses, less teritorial gains. Which in it self is more historic, but nothing has been done in respects to the different dynamics that the game has in 42 as compared to historic 42.
While very few games at leased in AARs has made it so far. Looking at rmonicals AAR with teh mild blizzard.
As the blizzard had been made more "historic" u alter the balance comming out of the blizzard, but nothing has been done to the added 1 mio men that the germans gain and how that alters teh historic vs in game dynamics of any 42 campaigns if the added Manpower is used in a concentrated offensive manner.

Making what when u play top end german players have seen even before the mild blizzard was introduced. Those that know how to make panzerballs. Use the extra 1 mio Manpower offensivly instead of getting into a defensiv mentality.
Well lets see more examples, but im in no way supprised actually it so very predictable what happens in the rmonical AAR. Alot more of that will be seen.

And ppl still argue we should tie the russian army down in 41. Not look at all at why u indeed is forced to have larger russian army and why come 42 and why it in mild blizzard games becomes even more necesarry as the balance comming out of the blizzard with mild blizzard all Things given will be changed compared to the old blizzard rules markedly.

Essentially now as ur offensive power is gona be much greater in 42 totally bypsing the historic facts of the german army being in continual decline with haivng a far to high replacement/rate and not accounting for the high number of men leaving the Eastern front in the computation of Manpower. U have a situasion in game of getting as good as 41 as possible to set up a much more massive 42 offensive will by far be the norm of mild blizzard games. Instead of having some thing like historical 41 losses and Manpower gains/losses that left the historic 42 offensive a much smaller undertaking then historic 41 offensive. Making in game the 42 offensive signigficantly more importand than the 41 offensive. Assuming u dont botch the 41 offensive completly.
Also in face of such realisties what is the soviet answer gona be? More force presevations = more running or less?

As said a number of times on this forum. Be carefull for what u wish for.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Peltonx -> RE: T35 nearing the end of the blizzard (12/30/2013 12:50:35 AM)

We have know he was toast after Moscow fell, he is new and will learn the hard way.

I am all for historical loses and OOB's, but the combat engine does not give historical lose ratio's. Which have been posted a number of times on these forums.

6:1 1941
5:1 1942
4:1 1943
3:1 1944

These are losses not counting surrenders.

As we know starting in late 42 the ratio is 1.5 to 1 to say nothing of 41 - mid 42.

If it was close to historical, Russia would need much more manpower and Germany less.

I am all for balance and have lobbied to add things to SHC side and lobbied for nerfing GHC side. The Lvov mega pockets are not historical, but has been tested by players without a larger then historical pocket GHC is toast.

1v1=2v1 is clearly a game destroyer and always has been all the better players know this other then a few fanboys and want it removed.

Tom Hunter would be VPed out be the end of March if this is a SD game as my last two have been.







Walloc -> RE: T35 nearing the end of the blizzard (12/30/2013 1:11:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

We have know he was toast after Moscow fell, he is new and will learn the hard way.

I am all for historical loses and OOB's, but the combat engine does not give historical lose ratio's. Which have been posted a number of times on these forums.

6:1 1941
5:1 1942
4:1 1943
3:1 1944

These are losses not counting surrenders.

As we know starting in late 42 the ratio is 1.5 to 1 to say nothing of 41 - mid 42.

If it was close to historical, Russia would need much more manpower and Germany less.

I am all for balance and have lobbied to add things to SHC side and lobbied for nerfing GHC side. The Lvov mega pockets are not historical, but has been tested by players without a larger then historical pocket GHC is toast.

1v1=2v1 is clearly a game destroyer and always has been all the better players know this other then a few fanboys and want it removed.

Tom Hunter would be VPed out be the end of March if this is a SD game as my last two have been.


And as t has been proven yes russians do take more losses and than axis side but those numbers which u continually states I and other have proven to be wrong.
As long as u keep holding on to inaccurate number numbers there is really no point in debating it.

For teh sake of every one else. First off on the soviet side use total casulty figurs. Including sick non combat casulties, and every thing else.

On the german side u continue to use "blütig verluste" which only includes direct combat related casulties, which doesnt not include for example sickness, frostbites, trenchfoot, non combat casulties and so on. The actaul when u use full number on the german side roughly twice as high as those u state else where.
Nor do u include axis allied numbers in the german figurs, but do by nature of as its those russian casulties caused directly and indirectly by axis allies is included in the russian numbers.

So ur numbers arent comparible there for the ratios are off and directly misleading.

Oh, been down this road so many times before, sorry for highjacking ur thread Tom but this is Pelton MO stating utterly misleading figurs to state his "case"

Rasmus



Tom Hunter -> RE: T35 nearing the end of the blizzard (12/30/2013 6:17:14 PM)

Rasmus

Thanks for a long and thoughtful post. I'm watching the Werhmarcht grow with much the same concerns about the game design that you have. We will see how it all turns out, but one thing is certain, it will not be something that was historically possible. [;)]

Don't worry about thread hijacking, I write the AAR to encourage discussion of the game, not just the AAR.



rmonical -> RE: T35 nearing the end of the blizzard (12/30/2013 8:07:44 PM)

quote:

Well lets see more examples, but im in no way surprised actually it so very predictable what happens in the rmonical AAR.


I did a lot of things wrong in '41 and even more in '42.



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