RE: Running away (Full Version)

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Tom Hunter -> RE: Running away (1/11/2014 2:04:52 PM)

@flaviusx you post here, and a number of others on this thread all assume you know the thoughts of another human being even when they explicitly say you do not.
I’m sorry but I have no answer for that kind of comment.

For everyone who takes my writing at face value thank you for your comments. Tiodi, Pelton, Walloc and MT Tours and Michael T have all been very helpful especially in their comments on some of Pelton's threads. Saper222 has been a master teacher and an excellent opponent.

Finally I don’t think we are done yet, I'm bored but have not resigned.



Flaviusx -> RE: Running away (1/11/2014 2:39:13 PM)

Tom, let's just say that it is no surprise you aren't having fun here. No mind reading involved.



Peltonx -> RE: Running away (1/11/2014 3:56:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

@flaviusx you post here, and a number of others on this thread all assume you know the thoughts of another human being even when they explicitly say you do not.
I’m sorry but I have no answer for that kind of comment.

For everyone who takes my writing at face value thank you for your comments. Tiodi, Pelton, Walloc and MT Tours and Michael T have all been very helpful especially in their comments on some of Pelton's threads. Saper222 has been a master teacher and an excellent opponent.

Finally I don’t think we are done yet, I'm bored but have not resigned.



its not that Flaviusx knows your thoughts, but we seen this 20+ times before.

If the SHC player loses Moscow its over, there is no recovering no matter who you are.

If the GHC does not take Leningrad or Rostov, its over. Only 1 time in 1000+ has this happened.

The game is centered around moral.

It is very very easy to tell by turn 10 in 95% of the games the out come, be it win lose or draw.

Once .14 is public then is will completely change as the SHC I will button will be an option (1v1=2v1)

All things being equal for the first time in 3 yrs we finally have a big fat ? when players play.

GHC fuel exploits have been nerfed and SHC I win buttons(mostly bugs+1v1=2v1) have been nerfed.

We all can injoy the game knowing bugs and exploits will not be the desiding factor finally



Tom Hunter -> RE: Running away (1/11/2014 5:11:55 PM)

@ Pelton,
Winning or losing this particular round is not what I am commenting on. Your game with Saper222 also makes me think the game is dull, in fact your game is what brought me to that conclusion, not this one.
At work I spend a lot of time with software, looking at data and getting complex systems to work.
WitE is full of complex systems with lots of data, most of the game time is spent optimizing these, comparatively little is spent on strategy which is what I find dull.
Saper222 is (apparently) beating you because he is really good at this. He’s is beating me because he is a veteran, which is different, I’m pretty sure I could beat him (not would, but could) if I played the Soviets again. However I’m also certain that I don’t want to play again because I find the design of the game to be dull.
To help explain this I would refine your statement about the game being centered on moral as follows:
The game is centered on detail, of which moral is the most important.
The reason all the nerfs and corrections are needed is because the detail drives complexity, and its very difficult for the designers to understand how players will exploit the complexity.

This is the second Grisby game I’ve taken apart, and I’ve come to the conclusion that his design philosophy is not a lot of fun for me. It is clearly a lot of fun for many other people, some aspects of what he and 2x3 do are brilliant, but personally I get more fun out of systems that are more focused simulating the likely results of fighting and fudging the components than systems that simulate the components but fudge the fighting.

The winter rule is an example of what I am talking about, and so is the 1:1 = 2:1. All the armies, equipment and generals are in the game as close to correctly as anyone might want, but to get the fighting to play out correctly the designers felt they had to add these rules. The fact that the rules don’t necessarily work as intended is a result of the complexity caused by having all the armies, equipment and other stuff done at such a level of detail.

I’m reading the World in Flames AARs with interest to see if the game is more strategy focused, certainly the old paper game was, and Micheal T posted a designer who appears to be a bit more in line with what I enjoy in a game. What you find to be fun will be different from what I do, and this game is certainly very enjoyable for many people.



STEF78 -> RE: Running away (1/11/2014 5:29:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tom, you are bored and disillusioned with this game in large part because you're screwed and have been screwed for quite some time. The reality is only starting to sink in.

You made a terrible mistake in agreeing to play this thing out. It was never going to have a happy ending. Resign. And play somebody at your own level next time -- whether that game is WITE or something else.





+1

As a first game against human you shouldn't have choosen Sapper222

This game couldn't be fun for you, even if you're a veteran wargamer



Tom Hunter -> T40 comes in (1/19/2014 1:48:30 AM)

To the many loyal fans of this AAR I am sorry I have not been able to post much recently, work has gotten very busy, but I am back with turn 40 opening now.

In my turn 39 I broke contact along the entire front, its clear that the Red Army can't fight forward at this time. I need to be sitting on my rail lines and have Saper222 off his. Saper22 finished off pockets in the North (shown) and another in the South. He was unable to create more, though he did make moves that tried to form them. My defenses were too strong for German troops at the end of their move.

The Red army is down to about 5.3 million men, so I lost 600k trying to sustain offensive operations into snow. The loss rate is going to drop with the mud, and with the Germans fighting forward of their rail lines.

Saper222 sent me email saying the Soviets must start retreating in early Feb. I believe he is correct, and this is yet another example of the deterministic nature of the game that makes it dull for me.

In the air I am winning, Saper222 shot down 123 of my planes and lost 43 of his own, more on that as the AAR continues.

In the far North the Leningrad army had to retreat to avoid having its rail line cut by fast moving Germans. So no more beating up the finns. Pelton says moral is the king of the battlefield, but I think a more realistic statement is movement is king, and moral is tied to movement. It's also tied to experience, and units with experience below 50 often fail to shoot, so its quite important there.

From reading Pelton's thread about what's wrong with the game I am convinced that the combat models behind the combat are too complex for the design and testing resources available, and the end result is they are magic.

I'm rambling a bit here, more rambling and more moves and strategy to come.

For those who think the results of this game cannot be interesting or fun I'm going to try to explain myself one more time, then I am just going to give up on those who can't take what I say at face value.

For me, this game with Saper222 is an experiment and we are both researchers. Every result is interesting, if a lot of my troops die for reason x that is interesting. If I discover a way to make my airforce win, that is interesting and fun. I try an experiment, my co-researcher Saper222 tries an experiment, we both learn from the results. If we beat the engine up and find flaws that is a win for me. There is no way I could enjoy a game with a less experienced player as much as this one. What is boring about this game has nothing to do with winning or losing, it has to do with the number of ways to win or lose. I’m losing in pretty much the only way there is to lose, Saper222 is winning in pretty much the only way to win. That’s dull, and it does not really bear repeating, which is why I think this is my first and last game. That does not mean it’s no fun.

Your experience will be different, most people here are playing to win, in this game I am playing to learn.


[image]local://upfiles/14870/85A0DADE663146BFBE662F8154DEC4B1.jpg[/image]



Tom Hunter -> T40 thoughts for Pelton (1/19/2014 2:08:06 AM)

I’m posting this screenshot because I think it is important for Pelton’s AAR. Saper222 does not stay forward and is very careful not to expose himself to counter attack. I wanted to show the troops deployments clearly so I did not leave the combat icons up, but he hit all the hexes around the three motorized divisions on the east side of the Kalit… river. (mostly chasing the armor brigade)

Saper222 keeps his troops back and does not expose them to counter attacks unless he must. Once in a while he moves to far forward and I pound him, but most of the time he is very disciplined.
When I look at Pelton’s map posts there are many single divisions in contact with Saper222s army. Do that, and you get hit.

Of course all of this is unrealistic and less fun, Pelton’s basic complaint is correct, but I think his solution is wrong. The whole design approach to combat produces results that are unrealistic and deterministic in the extreme, I think the solution is to stop going down a design dead end. Since that is not going to happen to WitE, the solution is to stop exposing yourself to counter attacks. Be Saper222 or lose.




[image]local://upfiles/14870/B155EB0FD48D4954BD5AD08B187D4ED4.jpg[/image]



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: T40 thoughts for Pelton (1/19/2014 11:07:42 AM)

I wouldn't say someone else's criticism is not accepting your comments at face value...just criticism.

Many of your statements aren't very accurate as your drawing conclusions based primarily on(your words) this game and Pelton's game with Saper. The problem with that is that Saper is inhumanly good at this game and to use this as a test model is flawed. There are many things you can do differently at this point in the game but in your current situation you really don't have many options. I knew as soon as you mentioned fighting forward in Feb/Mar that it was going to end in disaster. Not because the Soviets have to by game design but because you were weak and Saper is strong. Just my opinion. Also, Saper can have units in contact with you and vice versa. Just not in clear terrain.



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