RE: Turn 21 is in, Mud is over (Full Version)

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Tom Hunter -> RE: Turn 21 is in, Mud is over (12/9/2013 9:06:01 PM)

Saper222s turn came back, no offensive, but the air war is dialed up.

In T21 I launched a lot of bombing attacks. The two level bombers at 57 are still at 57, but the number at 56 xp went from 3 to 9. Tack bombers are also climbing, one is at 59 and 58, and others are moving up.

So the lesson is bomb a lot of stuff. It's another positive feedback loop.

The really interesting question (to me) is, if I get my bombers up into the 65-75-85 xp range, can I start to kill substantial numbers of Germans the same way the German bombers regularly kill hundreds of Russians?



Flaviusx -> RE: Turn 21 is in, Mud is over (12/9/2013 9:13:26 PM)

Well experienced shturmoviks hit like a mac truck.

Here's a tip for future games, too late to help now: a large number of your I-15 fighters are trained as bombers (particularly the bis models.) Use them as such and when you can reequip them as shturmoviks. It takes a while to build up a large pool of Il2s, thanks to low initial production values and factory redeployments. Most fighters don't have the option to swap into tac bombers, but these guys do. You could even use the I-15s not initially trained as bombers in this role for that matter.

Sometime during the winter, swap the I-15s en masse and presto: veteran shturmoviks, even with the hit you take in swapping.



Tom Hunter -> Understanding casualties (12/9/2013 9:18:24 PM)

Saper222s turn comes in, and it shows 224 Red Airforce planes destroyed and 64 German. 44 of the German planes are recon, and I slammed the recon bases hard in my T21.

Is the report showing the combined result of my T21 and Saper222s T22?



Flaviusx -> RE: Understanding casualties (12/9/2013 9:32:32 PM)

Heh, the loss report screen has this weird tendency to reset each time you check it.

The first time you check it in your own turn should reflect all the activity that took place during the opponent's last turn and going into your logistics phase (which is when training losses get added, I think, and those will constitute a large portion of your losses right there.)

If the first time you check it is well into the middle of your own turn, it should reflect activities you've taken in your own turn addition to the above. The next time you check it before the end of the turn it may reset from that point.

This is incredibly irritating.




Tom Hunter -> RE: Understanding casualties (12/9/2013 9:44:18 PM)

@Flaviusx I've seen the behavior you describe, I keep a save to go back and check Saper222s turn for exactly that reason.

However, in my T21 I bombed all over the place, and I launched one long ranger raid that I though was hitting ground, but actually landed on an airbase and got the crap shot out of it. So losing 100+ aircraft in my T21 makes some sense. Saper222s T22 does not show any attacks on airfields, or bombing by the Red Airforce, so its not clear where the 224 losses came from. That is why I am wondering if its possible that it shows my T21 as well. Or maybe its just another mystery of the code.

The training program is starting to pay off, the combat report said what kind of gun it was:

[image]local://upfiles/14870/54E23CE2EC1A499AA2CEFCAA349CA3A1.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Understanding casualties (12/9/2013 9:52:29 PM)

Possibly they are training losses, check the logistics screen and see what it says there.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Understanding casualties (12/9/2013 9:57:40 PM)

NOOOOOOOOOO... For goodness sakes don't let Flavius see you're using U-2VS' for anything. He'll disavow you.



Flaviusx -> RE: Understanding casualties (12/9/2013 10:02:04 PM)

Mehring swears by them, mileage definitely varies.

Their range is a deal killer for me, others are okay with that.



smokindave34 -> RE: Understanding casualties (12/9/2013 10:53:33 PM)

Now that Tom has unleashed the dreaded "night witches" (pictured beautifully above)this game will shortly swing over to the Soviets favor.



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Understanding casualties (12/9/2013 10:54:37 PM)

quote:

Mehring swears by them, mileage definitely varies.


I always use them simply because no Axis player ever sets fighters to night mission. Free bombing run. Of course there is a limit. When you have 4000 U2VS in your pool I think you might have missed the right time to destroy your factories.

Also, my sense of realism just simply forbids me to move my factories west. [:D]



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Turn 21 is in, Mud is over (12/9/2013 11:02:46 PM)

quote:

The really interesting question (to me) is, if I get my bombers up into the 65-75-85 xp range, can I start to kill substantial numbers of Germans the same way the German bombers regularly kill hundreds of Russians?


You can kill many Germans early on. Just find the stacks with the HQs and make sure they are out of fighter range.

Later in the war your bombers will cause massive disruption if you use them before your ground attacks. You can basically disrupt entire divisions if you use enough bombers. It works particularly well against Axis allies. I've only played one game until September 43 so take everything I say with a grain of salt.



mktours -> RE: More T18 (12/10/2013 1:40:40 PM)

My lose rate in Air war is worse than you. The game is too big and really tiresome and I often forgot the air bases,[:)]
The operation in moving planes into reserve is too troublesome, requiring too many click windows around and I don't have patience and time to do it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

In the air I hit back harder than any turn prior. Over all losses are 2.5 Soviet to 1 German in the air. Mostly I blew up HS129s, but I also got 15 Me109s, which is the first time I’ve shot down a significant number of German fighters in a turn.

In the South I actually achieved air parity on a number of bombing attacks, you can see a 100 fighter sweep hitting 46 Axis and shooting down 7 for a loss of two fighters and a few bombers. I think the airwar is turning from a massacre by the Luftwaffe into a series of punches and counter punches. The fighter force is doing ok, and continues to improve in moral and quality. The next step is to get the bomber quality and moral up.

The Red Army is up to 4.5 million men, 38500 guns, 2200 tanks, and 6850 planes. The Germans are growing a bit too, 3.4 million men, 33,400 guns, 2900 tanks and 2600 planes. My arm pools is drifting downwards, it 27000 now, down from 45k last turn. Manpower is up a bit as I recap towns, but the pools is also down. Trucks are 198k (86k) reflecting the effects of mud, but I gather still alright.


[image]local://upfiles/14870/C322C0537B424B8C8F4BE2BCCB932270.jpg[/image]




Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: More T18 (12/10/2013 2:03:16 PM)

quote:

he operation in moving planes into reserve is too troublesome, requiring too many click windows around and I don't have patience and time to do it.


You can send them all into reserve in one operation using the Commander's Report window. Personally, I use most of my bombers on T1. I put only the regiments below 50 moral into reserve.



mktours -> RE: More T18 (12/10/2013 2:09:26 PM)

I know, but how to sort out the low morale groups? I could only pick them one by one (and clicks the popping up windows around), is there more efficient ways?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

quote:

he operation in moving planes into reserve is too troublesome, requiring too many click windows around and I don't have patience and time to do it.


You can send them all into reserve in one operation using the Commander's Report window. Personally, I use most of my bombers on T1. I put only the regiments below 50 moral into reserve.




lastkozak -> RE: More T18 (12/10/2013 2:24:42 PM)

I tend to send them all back to Reserve, kind of gamey, but it is the only way to prevent the Germans from destroying your air force completely. I then wait til they are 62 experience, switch as many over as possible to Yak1s and send them to the southern front to kill Romanians! When their experience is up to 70, and I have 10 or so fighter groups, I transfer them to a front where they can be useful; Moscow, Leningrad (I do not subscribe to the abandonment of Leningrad either; there is too much good terrain and if you can get some forts built up, it is a pain for the Germans to clear the area.

quote:

Comrade Bozo said;
You can kill many Germans early on. Just find the stacks with the HQs and make sure they are out of fighter range.


Killing Germans is good for Soviet Morale! But first many Soviets must die! But what real member of the Worker's republic would not be willing to give their Life for the survival of the Great Union of Soviet Socialist Republic? (If you take advantage of German risky behaviours, you can counter attack and actually cut off and rout German Panzer Divisions, inflicting 2:3 casualty rates upon them).

I have wondered what is better, let the air units change up to better fighters on their own (does it still cost AP's?), or pay the AP's and change them yourself.



Flaviusx -> RE: More T18 (12/10/2013 3:08:57 PM)

You can use the commander's report to sort the air list by morale, but unfortunately there is no way to limit the groups shown to only display groups falling within a certain morale range. You'll get a complete list. You could then filter this out by aircraft type, but that's it. Ditto for experience, if you choose to sort out in that way.

It would be nice if the commander's report had this functionality in the future. Then you could globally send groups to the reserve based on the defined morale range (or whatever range you picked.)

It's very tedious as things stand to micromanage the Red Air force.



Tom Hunter -> T23 (12/10/2013 4:49:22 PM)

No big changes, the Red Army moved up and Saper222 pushed back on a few hexes, but there have not been any major attempts to launch an encirclement. Here and there the Soviets have pushed back a regiment or two.

I'm at 5.5 million men, 45k guns, close to 3000 tanks and 7k planes. Arm has gone to 0 as expected, trucks are about 180k (95k)

The air war continues, and by is Flaviusx right about the time it takes to manage. I'm doing a lot of bombing and airbase raiding, and its a huge time sink. The heavy pace keeps the air groups improving, I think the whole huge mess goes up about one xp point a turn.

Maps with the next turn, I expect we will finish T24 today, but I am not sure about 25.



M60A3TTS -> RE: T23 (12/10/2013 5:02:54 PM)

Sounds like he has decided to stand pat for the snow turns. You might as well start moving up.



jwolf -> RE: T23 (12/10/2013 6:17:57 PM)

Glad to see my fears about the snow turns were not well founded.  Good luck with the blizzard counter-offensive; these 13 turns may be the best fun you'll have during the whole game!



Tom Hunter -> RE: T23 (12/10/2013 6:20:12 PM)

Well founded or not, they were certainly shared by me.[X(]



Tom Hunter -> The Forecast is Snow (12/11/2013 4:15:55 PM)

Thanks to non-random weather we know the blizzard is about to hit. I'm posting a number of maps of my jump off position, T25 is in Russia now, and it's December 11, I love the irony.

These maps show something I am certain was a mistake by Saper222 letting me repair the rail lines. I’ve been moving up since a turn or two before the mud, that is seven turns of rail repair, and in I’ve gotten the railhead 5 to 7 hexes closer to the front line as a result, in a number of cases the rail is repaired right up to the front.

This turn I moved some of the RR engineers into the fronts, because it seemed to me that Stavka was fixing Moscow and I need more repair in the South. For example I have had rail to Tambov for three turns, but not in it.
Blizzard is going to be interesting, obviously I have never done it before, and I am often unsure what I’m doing well or poorly, but I am certain that moving the logistics forward is smart.

The red lines are my jump off positions, if they are on the map edge then I started behind them off map.




[image]local://upfiles/14870/F9D9060FD74E4F9F93DF619A1DFF8107.jpg[/image]



Tom Hunter -> RE: The Forecast is Snow (12/11/2013 4:26:02 PM)

In the Moscow area I want to cause casualties, these armies are infantry heavy with little cavalry. I have another front (Moscow Defense Area) coming, and I plan to put new armies in, you can see the Stavka troops around Ivanovo. I’m also planning on merging units to keep strength up and the meat grinder going. We’ll see how that works.

In the air the bombings continue, most bomber units have xp in the 50s, and I rebalanced the airbases and removed the A4 commanders, replacing them with A5s and A6s. I also moved airbases into the newer air commands, Volkov and Reserve, and out of the Leningrad air command, some groups are moving South as I finally finish my move away from the North. I’m also occasionally shooting down a 109. I think Saper222 can take control of the air in any one place he wants, but I can hit him in many places fairly effectively.

All pictures are at close of turn 24. Hug me is the phrase of the day.

[image]local://upfiles/14870/346A5592D5F64819BA66AF72CACDBC5C.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: The Forecast is Snow (12/11/2013 4:29:41 PM)

Deleted



Tom Hunter -> RE: The Forecast is Snow (12/11/2013 4:32:31 PM)

South of Voronezh is where the strategic offensive is going. I plan to keep pushing South and West, with air supply to keep the momentum up. Right now there is not a lot in my way, but there is more at the river crossing than I was expecting. Saper222 may run, I would.

In the east you can see a reserve army that just moved in. I plan to put these in places where I want strong fort lines, and draw on them to support the Fronts as needed. The goal is to have the reserves building the lines that will make Saper222’s job harder in the summer of 42.


[image]local://upfiles/14870/4AE24EDAA2F74680AD452898222BE48E.jpg[/image]



Tom Hunter -> RE: The Forecast is Snow (12/11/2013 4:43:15 PM)

In the South I am trying to pin him at Rostov while the armies further North come down. If you look in the lower left corner you can see paras, all my surviving paratroops are in that area, I am thinking hard about a big drop in Saper222s rear.

I find I am still mastering the order of movement and setting up an army to get the maximum advance, as you can see I did not get contact everywhere I wanted. On the other hand I have my armies well coordinated, no mixed stacks and the tank brigades are in places where they will get to attack inspite of needed 16 movement points.

Saper222 has a lot of air down here (so do I) and I think he is hoping it will mess up some of my attacks. Once again if I were him I would run, but he does not look a lot like he is going to run, there are quite a few troops on the east bank of the Don and Donets, I don’t think that’s a very safe place for them.

This is where one of you chimes in with the news that rivers give off heat and prevent the blizzard from hitting next to them until T26 or some similarly useful piece of information. [:D]




[image]local://upfiles/14870/ED0FCD01B6F5473A9874446E9D54DB4A.jpg[/image]



lastkozak -> RE: The Forecast is Snow (12/11/2013 4:49:00 PM)

Tom,

You should contact Bozo the clown for his thoughts on para-drops. He is a big supporter of their use and uses them extensively, thus you may obtain much important info you require regarding their use from him.

lastkozak



Wuffer -> RE: The Forecast is Snow (12/11/2013 5:39:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter
there are quite a few troops on the east bank of the Don and Donets, I don’t think that’s a very safe place for them.



Well, Sapper might 'tuned' his advance in a way the developers hadn't foresight, but fighting for bridgeheads in blizzard is, hm, 'very german' and could regarded as very fair play IMHO.



jwolf -> RE: The Forecast is Snow (12/11/2013 5:54:19 PM)

I'd like to buy front row seats for this show. [8D]  Regarding the rivers, you need a high ice level for them to be neutralized.  Ironically, a medium ice level makes them virtually impassable, worse than either high ice or no ice.  You might have to wait a turn for the Don to freeze solidly, or maybe it starts December already frozen.  I don't think it will be a major problem, though.  Good luck!

I'm really puzzled at Sapper's positions.  The level 1 forts aren't much of a barrier, and many of his front line units aren't in forts at all!  I admit I'm a green player and he's an expert, but I just don't understand what he has in mind.

BTW how can he still have his airlanding division (near Rostov)?  I thought that got withdrawn during the fall sometime.

Edit: You probably know this already, but in the North beware of the Finns. They are like alien supermen during the first winter.



Tom Hunter -> RE: The Forecast is Snow (12/11/2013 6:10:51 PM)

@Wuffer Saper222 and I are in agreement that anything the game lets you do is fair. I don't think he is forward because he wants to play fair or because he does not want to play fair. I don't think either of us makes a move to be fair. Personally, I stay fair by not repeating moves or die rolls, by running one save and sucking it up when I make a bone headed move and wish I could take it back. I think Saper222 does the same, but makes fewer bone headed moves. I realize some publicly state they will play a certain way (like no big Lvov pocket on T1) to be fair, and there are others who privately reopen their saves after making bone headed moves [8|] too.

I have a few theories as to why Saper222 is deployed the way he has. My best one is that he opened several games with other players and is not paying enough attention to this one because he beat me up so bad in the opening. I really did not understand how to set up for an attack until a turn or two before mud, so he may not realize I've been improved, especially because I did it by experimenting with scenarios vs the AI and by opening some of our very early turns and doing what would be suicidal counter attacks.

@jwolf I'm not sure about the airlanding, though it is a regiment. Thanks for the tip about the Finns, I knew not to attack them, but did not know they would get bonuses to attack me. Leningrad front is full, but its covering a very large area so the unit density is low, and its really a side show, I am pushing from Moscow and South. If the Finns want the forest they can have it.



Tom Hunter -> T25 (12/13/2013 12:02:13 AM)

Saper222 does what we all expect, and pulls back in the face of the blizzard. Casualties were just over 10k on a side this turn, with me launching a series of mostly successful attacks on Saper222s screening units. On this map you can see I put one German regiment into a positions that might be trouble. The river is impassible, so I have to wait another turn.

The arrow extends from a 50 moral cavalry army, which I am hoping will trap some Germans. I’m also doing a lot of air supply to try and keep momentum going. Still we have the usual problem of the game design encouraging retreats not combat.


[image]local://upfiles/14870/71F3B56CCCCE4BE29965533058EC43CD.jpg[/image]



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