RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (Full Version)

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rbrockman2 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/1/2014 12:10:17 AM)

The primary goal of the Germans is to isolate and kill groups of Russian units. What makes this doable is that for a long time there are always some Russians that are off by themselves and vulnerable: the Germans simply rail their mobile units to wherever the "victim" units are, surround them, and toast them. Killing Russian units thin the Russian lines, leading to more groups of vulnerable Russians that can be toasted next, etc.

From this perspective, the recent Crimean operation in this AAR was great because it toasted a bunch of Russian divisions while freeing up a bunch of Axis units to go rampage elsewhere.

Usually (historically), Axis advance into the Caucasus is a bad idea because it extends the Axis forces over a wide area capturing territory without allowing the capture of Russian units. The situation in this AAR is different: the Axis forces in the Eastern Caucasus have been allowed to outflank the Russians and drive down the Caspian. Am I correct in assuming that all the Russian units in the Caucasus depend on Baku for supply? If so, when the Axis reaches the southern map edge then a stack of Russian divisions are toast, regardless of how the defense of Baku itself goes. Note that the situation in the Caucasus has inexplicably lured a bunch of Guards units into tangling with the SS, in clear terrain, far away from anything the Russians need to defend, near a big body of water with no nearby ports. This doesn't seem very healthy for the Russians.





STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/1/2014 9:49:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cripes A Mighty

Very entertaining AAR. Your progress is incredible. You have taken a huge amount of territory and mauled your enemy.

That being said, I think you are in grave trouble. Your momentum was a key factor in keeping him off balance, but your front along the Volga hasn't moved much in a while, and now you are running out of steam. You are on the verge of mud season with vast thinly-defended flanks. He will have time to recover, regroup, and strike. You simply don't have the manpower to defend your entire perimeter. If he can attack south from Penza and break through, he threatens to roll up your entire Volga front while the lions share of your mobile units that could best contain the damage are in the far-away Caucasus.

I would love to see a screenshot of your entire front, from the Baltic to the Caspian.


The key point is the number of VP required.

If it had been a 260 VP game, I would never have done such an expansion through the Caucasus but would have focused on the seizure of Moscow.

But it's a 290 VP game and I have to take roughly a line Astrakhan Saratov Ryazan Moscow (included) lake Ladoga.

That's the reason of this little travel in the deep South. I hope being strong enough to take Moscow during summer 1943 and keep my others conquests.




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/1/2014 9:53:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Do you think anyone even knows where Baku is? The entire world doesn't care if we capture Baku or not.

- Heinz Guderian -

well he would have said it in these circumstances

+1

but the capture of Baku means the surrender of all russians units in the South/west Caucasus, a shorten frontline, and the ability to "free" the major
big part of my pzd/mot!




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/1/2014 9:55:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rbrockman2

The primary goal of the Germans is to isolate and kill groups of Russian units. What makes this doable is that for a long time there are always some Russians that are off by themselves and vulnerable: the Germans simply rail their mobile units to wherever the "victim" units are, surround them, and toast them. Killing Russian units thin the Russian lines, leading to more groups of vulnerable Russians that can be toasted next, etc.

From this perspective, the recent Crimean operation in this AAR was great because it toasted a bunch of Russian divisions while freeing up a bunch of Axis units to go rampage elsewhere.

Usually (historically), Axis advance into the Caucasus is a bad idea because it extends the Axis forces over a wide area capturing territory without allowing the capture of Russian units. The situation in this AAR is different: the Axis forces in the Eastern Caucasus have been allowed to outflank the Russians and drive down the Caspian. Am I correct in assuming that all the Russian units in the Caucasus depend on Baku for supply? If so, when the Axis reaches the southern map edge then a stack of Russian divisions are toast, regardless of how the defense of Baku itself goes. Note that the situation in the Caucasus has inexplicably lured a bunch of Guards units into tangling with the SS, in clear terrain, far away from anything the Russians need to defend, near a big body of water with no nearby ports. This doesn't seem very healthy for the Russians.



Your right, the supply source is Baku, and on turn 92, I've cut the railline Baku/Tbilissi so the units in Georgia are dead ducks.




STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/1/2014 10:09:26 AM)

Turn 92, 18th march 1943

The last pictures from this game. If Matrix doesn't find a solution to allow me loading the game, this AAR and the game will end [:@][sm=00000106.gif]

Defence in front of Baku collapses, several russians corps are destroyed ans the rail line Baku/Tbilissi cut!

[img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/2999808292.jpg[/img]

In the north, a picture to show the ground taken by frogmarc during the winter!

[img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/15720892north.jpg[/img]





loki100 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/1/2014 10:35:14 AM)

will be a pity if this ends. You've done a brilliant job, as rbrockman2 says, of breaking up the Red Army into bite sized chunks, and of doing so in a way that frees up your units for the next step. You could easily have got badly overstretched but you've kept that balance.

While I think frogmarc may have played into your hands - that powerful force of Gds on the Caspian Front is very vulnerable and would be better hitting you somewhere else (???? - at least that is what I'd try) - you've really set the tempo of the campaign across this period [;)]




Tarhunnas -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/1/2014 12:05:21 PM)

Yes, this is very interesting, hope they can fix the problem! Would love to see how this ends. Kudos to you for a well conducted campaign, and to your opponent Frogmarc for keeping up the game and continuing fighting bravely in the face of adversity.

Edit: BTW it would be interesting to see Soviet production, do you know what the Soviet Arm and HI numbers are?




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/1/2014 2:54:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

will be a pity if this ends


no comment!!! I'm too angry [:@]

quote:

that powerful force of Gds on the Caspian Front is very vulnerable and would be better hitting you somewhere else (???? - at least that is what I'd try) - you've really set the tempo of the campaign across this period [;)]

I think so too.

I also kept the initiative because he always tried to respond to my attacks. If he had given space and attacked elsewhere, I couldn't have maintained such pressure.

In the north, he has a respecfull but not huge force and I have to give ground and just send in this area 3 Inf divs and 1 Pzd....




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/1/2014 2:57:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Yes, this is very interesting, hope they can fix the problem!


I hope so too!!![;)]


quote:

BTW it would be interesting to see Soviet production, do you know what the Soviet Arm and HI numbers are?

Marc, do you have screens or figures about it?




M60A3TTS -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/1/2014 4:20:40 PM)

Maybe they'll find frogmarcs current game file corrupted and he'll have to replay a turn. Whatever it is, you should be able to continue the game from some point.




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/2/2014 8:56:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Maybe they'll find frogmarcs current game file corrupted and he'll have to replay a turn. Whatever it is, you should be able to continue the game from some point.

In french I would say: je croise les doigts!

Maybe in English:

That's what I'm hoping for, fingers cross.




Joel Billings -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/3/2014 2:27:13 AM)

The last save was indeed corrupted (the file was only 1k) so I reverted the game to the prior player turn. Hopefully this was just a fluke and it won't happen again.




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/3/2014 5:58:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The last save was indeed corrupted (the file was only 1k) so I reverted the game to the prior player turn. Hopefully this was just a fluke and it won't happen again.

Thanks a lot for your intervention. [;)]

I don't know how are your business relations with Matrix/Slitherine but it seems to me that solving such server problems should be their job, not yours. We have had serveral "error 99" upload during the lats turns.

Marc (frogmarc) is on holidays this week so we will see next week end if it worked.




Joel Billings -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/4/2014 5:52:40 PM)

The Slitherine tech people are going to take a look at this now that they are aware of it. I was told there was another game experiencing similar issues so it appears to be a server wide issue. I have a lot of confidence in their technical people to make things better. As for the 1k file upload, I really think this was some kind of fluke event.




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/4/2014 7:15:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The Slitherine tech people are going to take a look at this now that they are aware of it. I was told there was another game experiencing similar issues so it appears to be a server wide issue. I have a lot of confidence in their technical people to make things better. As for the 1k file upload, I really think this was some kind of fluke event.

I received several answers from Slitherine/Matrix. Some of them were very keen.

Thanks a lot for your action. I'm sure we will enjoy continuing this game once frogmarc is back from holidays!!!




STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/9/2014 10:10:14 PM)

Turn 93, 25th march 1943

All technical problems aren't solved as frogmarc still has difficulties tu upload saves (error 99)

But we has been able to play another turn...

Cutting the supply from Baku fliped all non controlled hexes in the southwestern Caucasus. SHC units here will surrender shortly.

I've not been able to take Baku this turn but the city should fall after the mud.

I'm satisfied with this winter campaign but game isn't over.

Some of you asked a general view of the front...

[img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/1713344793.jpg[/img]




STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/9/2014 10:12:52 PM)

And a closest view from the sector of Baku

[img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/87085293baku.jpg[/img]




loki100 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/9/2014 10:17:56 PM)

you've done an incredible amount of damage. The Soviets at 6m and the Germans alone at 4m, be interesting to see if you can manage the final gains in 1943 or if you have reached the limits of your advance.




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/10/2014 9:22:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

you've done an incredible amount of damage. The Soviets at 6m and the Germans alone at 4m, be interesting to see if you can manage the final gains in 1943 or if you have reached the limits of your advance.

That's the good question:
Is it possible for the german to get the last 30 VP's mid 1943...

Some Ussr stacks have now a CV > 25




M60A3TTS -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/10/2014 11:33:06 PM)

In case people were wondering, I've seen no evidence that losing Baku and the fuel/oil that goes with it will have any significant impact on the Red Army. The Axis player will take out about 35-40% of that production, but there will still be some excess production capacity on the Soviet side even with the loss.




GamesaurusRex -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/11/2014 7:40:44 PM)

Reading through this AAR is just another confirmation for why the Russian should not fight forward or counterattack in 41 blizzard. Doing so is suicidal because of the multiple "over the top" Russian penalties during 41-42. To whit:

1) Extreme morale differential
2) Unrealistic binary isolation rules
3) Fantasy Lvov pocketing
4) Historically inaccurate and low reinforcement rates
5) Combat resolution routines that result in too few losses to the attacker

Nevertheless, the game is playable and interesting once HRs and intial optional settings are put in place to balance the game. Even then, though, you can forget fighting forward or the blizzard attack as the Russian. The best the Russian can do is try to survive until 43, when the rebuilt Russian Army 2.0 can be assembled to actually play the game.




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/11/2014 7:46:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

In case people were wondering, I've seen no evidence that losing Baku and the fuel/oil that goes with it will have any significant impact on the Red Army. The Axis player will take out about 35-40% of that production, but there will still be some excess production capacity on the Soviet side even with the loss.

To illustrate this post, my current oil production. Maybe, I will get some oïl from Maïkop soon

[img]http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/219197OIL.jpg[/img]




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/11/2014 8:19:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Reading through this AAR is just another confirmation for why the Russian should not fight forward or counterattack in 41 blizzard. Doing so is suicidal because of the multiple "over the top" Russian penalties during 41-42. To whit:

1) Extreme morale differential
2) Unrealistic binary isolation rules
3) Fantasy Lvov pocketing
4) Historically inaccurate and low reinforcement rates
5) Combat resolution routines that result in too few losses to the attacker

Nevertheless, the game is playable and interesting once HRs and intial optional settings are put in place to balance the game. Even then, though, you can forget fighting forward or the blizzard attack as the Russian. The best the Russian can do is try to survive until 43, when the rebuilt Russian Army 2.0 can be assembled to actually play the game.

Your analysis is only focused on russians problems.

Even if most of your points are correct, german players also have their own difficulties:
- russian airborne and amphibian capacity
- partisan efficiency in the early months of the game if well managed
- impossibility to take Moscow and often Leningrad against good players in 1941
- the fact that the russian commander doesn't make the same errors than Stalin
and I forgot surely others points






hfarrish -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/13/2014 10:48:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Reading through this AAR is just another confirmation for why the Russian should not fight forward or counterattack in 41 blizzard. Doing so is suicidal because of the multiple "over the top" Russian penalties during 41-42. To whit:

1) Extreme morale differential
2) Unrealistic binary isolation rules
3) Fantasy Lvov pocketing
4) Historically inaccurate and low reinforcement rates
5) Combat resolution routines that result in too few losses to the attacker

Nevertheless, the game is playable and interesting once HRs and intial optional settings are put in place to balance the game. Even then, though, you can forget fighting forward or the blizzard attack as the Russian. The best the Russian can do is try to survive until 43, when the rebuilt Russian Army 2.0 can be assembled to actually play the game.

Your analysis is only focused on russians problems.

Even if most of your points are correct, german players also have their own difficulties:
- russian airborne and amphibian capacity
- partisan efficiency in the early months of the game if well managed
- impossibility to take Moscow and often Leningrad against good players in 1941
- the fact that the russian commander doesn't make the same errors than Stalin
and I forgot surely others points





Agreed. I only play as the Soviets and have been doing so since the game was released, including against many of the better players who post here. There is no question in my mind that in its current state (with the logistics nerfs), the Soviet side has far more margin for error and that it is the "easier" side to play. That isn't an argument necessarily that the game needs more balancing - the Germans should have a more difficult time to win (although it should not be so difficult that the game is unfun). I think it's pretty silly and against the experience of almost everyone here to argue otherwise.




STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 7:01:47 AM)

Turn 99, 6 May 1943

Mud all over Russia except in the extreme South.

I take advantage of this opportunity to shoot down the defenses in front of Baku but fail in my attempt of taking the city.

Next turn will see more substantial action...

[img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/145526991.jpg[/img]




M60A3TTS -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 1:21:31 PM)

Your inexperienced opponent didn't leave a sufficient garrison at Baku. So go ahead and finish him off there, but I'd suggest you not linger too long.




Tarhunnas -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 1:26:08 PM)

Well, not many people have much experience of defending Baku...




M60A3TTS -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 1:36:26 PM)

Not that they should want it. [:)]




STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 3:17:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Your inexperienced opponent didn't leave a sufficient garrison at Baku. So go ahead and finish him off there, but I'd suggest you not linger too long.

In fact he didn't follow (read?) the advice of stacking 3 rifle corps in Baku.

Not sure he would have been able to keep the city even with such troops.

I'm really stronger than him in this area.




STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 3:32:19 PM)

Turn 100, 13th may 1943

Baku has fallen, some USSR units still survive in Caucasus.

Between Baku and Astrakhan, SHC wants to avoid an encirclement, he shortens his line and uses the protection of the swamps

[img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/274478100.jpg[/img]




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