RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome)

RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (Full Version)

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M60A3TTS -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 3:53:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: STEF78 quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS Your inexperienced opponent didn't leave a sufficient garrison at Baku. So go ahead and finish him off there, but I'd suggest you not linger too long. In fact he didn't follow (read?) the advice of stacking 3 rifle corps in Baku. Not sure he would have been able to keep the city even with such troops. I'm really stronger than him in this area. In another PBEM game, I defended with one corps and two divisions. The battle raged on for three weeks before the Germans withdrew. [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/BAKU_zps2c0f0166.jpg[/image]

STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 3:57:12 PM)
You have no penalty for your rifle corps: did you hold the hex behind the city?

timmyab -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 4:13:04 PM)
I have no experience of defending Baku but I feel that it should be given top priority and you should be able to make it virtually impregnable with two or three strong armies under a front HQ. Your opponent made a mistake by defending too forward. The outer defenses should start at Makhachkala and if the Germans make it as far as Derbent they should be looking at a big 'no entry' sign.

STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 4:31:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: timmyab I have no experience of defending Baku but I feel that it should be given top priority and you should be able to make it virtually impregnable with two or three strong armies under a front HQ. Your opponent made a mistake by defending too forward. The outer defenses should start at Makhachkala and if the Germans make it as far as Derbent they should be looking at a big 'no entry' sign. He actually showed itself too optimistic by considering himself capable of resoldering his armies of Grozny with those of the North. It is an error that he repeated several times in the game. Sometimes, it is really worth to give ground.

M60A3TTS -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 5:14:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: STEF78 You have no penalty for your rifle corps: did you hold the hex behind the city? There is no penalty. Rule 20.1.2 Soviet permanent supply sources: „h Chelyabinsk „h Baku As it is a permanent supply source, Baku cannot be isolated. As a result I would argue it's the most impregnable hex in the game.

STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 5:36:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS quote: ORIGINAL: STEF78 You have no penalty for your rifle corps: did you hold the hex behind the city? There is no penalty. Rule 20.1.2 Soviet permanent supply sources: „h Chelyabinsk „h Baku As it is a permanent supply source, Baku cannot be isolated. As a result I would argue it's the most impregnable hex in the game. I agree with this point. Units in Baku can't be isolated. My question is: were these units reporting to an HQ, did the german player do a full encirclement. I suppose it was not as I see bomber losses which means that there were fighters close from Baku. I think that your opponent didn't use the right way to take the city At least the city could be garrisonned with 2 rifle corps and an HQ

M60A3TTS -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 6:08:03 PM)
They were reporting to 44th Army HQ and Transcaucasus Front, both far from Baku. So the defenders would not get help from support units. Full 4 hex encirclement with 7 attacking units. I wasn't defending with 3 rifle corps either, effectively half that. As you say, I could have done 2 + HQ but I think in theory 3 corps would defend better. And of course they would all have sapper attachments.

timmyab -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 6:19:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS They were reporting to 44th Army HQ and Transcaucasus Front, both far from Baku. To my mind this is one of the fundamental problems with the game. Without the benefit of a nearby HQ I don't understand why your units in Baku get inflated CVs. In a sane world they would fall if anything.

gingerbread -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/15/2014 7:15:58 PM)
It's Urban terrain, so dense terrain benefits are not taken into account in the Combat Val displayed for the defender (bug is filed). It is in the Modified Combat Val, so the final result is correct.

STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/16/2014 7:43:39 PM)
Turn 100, 13th may 1943 frogmarc has underestimated the mobility of my pzd/mot. His troops Southwest of Astrakhan will pay the price for it! Near Stalingrad, I cut the rail but will face an heavy counterattack [img]http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/6411721001.jpg[/img]

STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/16/2014 7:45:35 PM)
And of course his airbases on the rail line were destroyed [img]http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/787587100air.jpg[/img]

Tarhunnas -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/16/2014 8:06:21 PM)
That concentration of Guards corps on the Caspian coast did look very vulnerable. With Baku gone they could just as well have retreated to Astrakhan.

STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/16/2014 8:08:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas That concentration of Guards corps on the Caspian coast did look very vulnerable. With Baku gone they could just as well have retreated to Astrakhan. Agreed, he will loose very good troops!

M60A3TTS -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/16/2014 9:41:41 PM)
Is this the standard 290VP to auto-win or the alt 260?

STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/16/2014 9:59:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS Is this the standard 290VP to auto-win or the alt 260? 290 VP

STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/17/2014 8:50:46 AM)
Turn 102, 27 may 1943 Cleaning of the Pocket and of the western bank of the Volga. Strong soviet mech and tank corps arriving from the north. Once Astrakhan lost, I didn't thought he would fight for this area. Pushed back in Stalingrad. [img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/118353101.jpg[/img]

Wuffer -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/17/2014 10:26:00 AM)
not many games show a continuing offensive like this, and even fewer games are decided in '43... great AAR

STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/17/2014 10:53:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wuffer not many games show a continuing offensive like this, and even fewer games are decided in '43... great AAR in fact I'm wondering if I'm not making a strategical mistake while fighting in this area. The key is Moscow not Astrakhan. But creating this Pocket was such a temptation!!!

Wuffer -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/17/2014 2:03:53 PM)
Yeah, you destroyed once more a lot of stuff, but OTOH the game is neither won nor decided by occupying Astrakhan or Baku alone - the ground is more or less worthless, I think, and your only chance remains a pocket of his most valueable strikeunits, like the MechCorps etc. This is not the mortal blow yet... ---> concentrate the panzers once more, you could even shorten the line :-)

M60A3TTS -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/17/2014 2:37:45 PM)
The ground is not worthless as it contains Soviet population centers that give the Red Army its troop strength. Also, their troop replacement values aren't as high as they used to be. Stef will have the win as long things continue to go as they have.

Wuffer -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/17/2014 10:48:11 PM)
Says the Defender Of Baku Really, you have the Insight :-))

STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/17/2014 11:00:05 PM)
Turn 104, 10 june 1943 Big (decisive?) battle of tanks on the eastern bank of the Volga. I do te "Volga right hook" (TM) to encircle the russians. [img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/734601104.jpg[/img]

STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/17/2014 11:02:52 PM)
A view of the russians units destroyed [img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/410420104l.jpg[/img] And an illustration of a typical turn in the north [img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/262927104n.jpg[/img]

Wuffer -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/18/2014 12:36:30 AM)
Did the destroyed units have had similar CVs comparing to those nasty northern ones?

STEF78 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/19/2014 7:36:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wuffer Did the destroyed units have had similar CVs comparing to those nasty northern ones? Yes, his Corps have CV between 8 and 12. Time to finish this game...

STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/19/2014 10:32:09 PM)
Turn 105, 17 june 1943 Never underestimate mobilty of Pzd/Mot!!! The "Volga right hook" (TM) moves ahead. situation of russian troops South east of Stalingrad is critical! [img]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/288807105.jpg[/img]

STEF78 -> 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/20/2014 8:19:20 PM)
Turn 106, 24 june 1943 Collapse of the russian front line. I drive at full speed to the north, move 1 Pz Corps from Saratov to break the line and complete with a breakthrough from Stalingrad. I think the game is virtually ended, the backbone of the russian army South of Saratov is doomed. In the north I loose Vichny-Voloshek and a stack of 3 rifle corps still resists on the caspian beaches. [img]http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/912204106.jpg[/img]

M60A3TTS -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/20/2014 8:31:07 PM)
Great job with these latest pockets. It does look like the Red Army is on the verge of coming apart.

rbrockman2 -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/21/2014 1:05:55 AM)
It's not over yet, but Red Team cannot afford to keep losing units like this all summer. How is the truck situation? I bet those panzers are thirsty. We also see here how mobility is so brutal. From the standpoint of the past few turns most of those panzer divisions could have been outfitted with Pz IA's and the result would have been basically the same. It's amazing that Red Team is still at ~6M even though they have been getting hammered almost continually (except mud) for over a year. The tank factories in the Urals would make good the brutal losses in a few months if the Red Army were left unmolested (not likely). I found it quite odd that Red Team deployed any forces at all, especially the mobile forces, between Saratov and Astrakhan. There's very little there worth defending -- the infantry could have been holding a line in better terrain much farther north, while the mobile forces could have been involved in a combined arms counterattack far away from the panzers. Now all of those forces are toast. Keeping Red Team down requires that the panzers be continually isolating groups of Russians. Forcing the panzers to redeploy by rail by counterattacking far away or abandoning the area near the panzers buys time for the Russians to regroup. If things keep going the way they have, the main mob of panzers will end up driving all the way from the Caucasus to Moscow while cutting off units nearly every turn.

janh -> RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) (3/21/2014 12:54:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS Great job with these latest pockets. It does look like the Red Army is on the verge of coming apart. Looks like it already has so a few turns ago... Given the force ratios and that at this point the German Army was and now also is at the peak strength, with still quite an advantage in quality, the Soviets appear to be merely prey. Seems there is a lack of depth to the Red lines, which in turn may be a consequence of the bitter losses since spring 42. This trend will probably accelerate as success promotes itself. This game and AAR are really great, I never thought anything like this was doable as German against a human opponent. Especially after a mediocre, quite normal Barbarossa start. The German standing and recovery power is astonishing. Just as the ability to keep the Panzers fueled here is... I thought you'd be slowed to a crawl after so deep advances, but RR was apparently extremely quick.

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