RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (Full Version)

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JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 7:11:46 PM)
Disaster. [:(] Any chance to avoid AV is now completely gone. I´ll most likely throw in the towel tomorrow. Havn´t gotten the turn file yet only CR/Replay. But I´m pretty much looking at the total annihilation of the entire USN including all attack shipping. Deja vu! [:D] Given the VP situation (31761:7951) was touch and go already there is no longer any chance to avoid it. Especially considering Chungking has yet to be captured. I know Tom wants to play on despite the result but given the situation I think an allied surrender is in order. Tom will most likely end up around 7:1 or even 8:1. Astounding victory! quote: Morning Air attack on TF, near Baker Island at 147,136 Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 7 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M5 Zero x 129 B5N2 Kate x 57 D3A1 Val x 48 Allied aircraft F4F-3A Wildcat x 7 F4F-4 Wildcat x 33 Japanese aircraft losses A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak D3A1 Val: 3 destroyed, 3 damaged D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak Allied aircraft losses F4F-3A Wildcat: 1 destroyed F4F-4 Wildcat: 10 destroyed Allied Ships APD Ward, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage AP W.A. Holbrook, Torpedo hits 2, heavy damage AP Zeilin, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk AP American Legion, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AP George F. Elliot, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage APD Kennison, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk APD Schley, Bomb hits 1, on fire AP Barnett AP Heywood, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk APD Crane AP U.S. Grant, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire AP Hunter Liggett, Torpedo hits 1 AP J. Franklin Bell, Bomb hits 2 AP Fuller, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires AK Fomalhaut, Torpedo hits 1 quote: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Baker Island at 150,134 Weather in hex: Heavy cloud Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 30 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M5 Zero x 165 B5N2 Kate x 114 D3A1 Val x 151 Allied aircraft Martlet II x 17 F4F-3A Wildcat x 20 F4F-4 Wildcat x 64 Japanese aircraft losses A6M5 Zero: 4 destroyed B5N2 Kate: 25 damaged B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed by flak D3A1 Val: 18 destroyed, 15 damaged D3A1 Val: 4 destroyed by flak Allied aircraft losses Martlet II: 2 destroyed F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed Allied Ships CV Wasp, Bomb hits 1, on fire CV Hornet, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage CA Portland CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage CV Lexington, Bomb hits 1 CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage CLAA Atlanta, Bomb hits 1 BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 12, on fire DD Blue CA Astoria DD Bagley CA New Orleans, Torpedo hits 1 DD Aaron Ward CA Chester CLAA San Juan, Bomb hits 1, on fire quote: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Howland Island at 150,132 Weather in hex: Heavy cloud Raid detected at 74 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 29 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 48 A6M5 Zero x 111 Allied aircraft Swordfish I x 11 F4F-3A Wildcat x 13 F4F-4 Wildcat x 51 SBD-3 Dauntless x 163 TBF-1 Avenger x 24 Japanese aircraft losses A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed Allied aircraft losses Swordfish I: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged Swordfish I: 1 destroyed by flak F4F-3A Wildcat: 3 destroyed F4F-4 Wildcat: 8 destroyed SBD-3 Dauntless: 46 destroyed, 24 damaged SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak TBF-1 Avenger: 8 destroyed, 3 damaged Japanese Ships CA Chokai CV Kaga CV Akagi BB Haruna BB Hiei, Bomb hits 2 CV Shokaku CV Zuikaku, Torpedo hits 1 CV Soryu, Bomb hits 2, on fire CVL Shoho BB Kongo CV Hiryu BB Yamato, Bomb hits 1 CVL Zuiho BB Kirishima CA Suzuya DD Akebono CVL Ryujo CA Kumano Not really sure why the DBs couldn´t hit anything. Over 150 got through CAP but they just didn´t hit anything. If they had....well things would have looked very different. Seems like I just can´t catch a break in my CV battles. [:)] Atleast it wasn´t a 7 hex strike or I would have been furious! [:D] Off to bed now. Don´t take my silence tomorrow as grieving or anything. I´m just back to work tomorrow and will be back tomorrow night. I´ll give it a good thinking tomorrow but when you are beat you are beat! (And yes I know the allies can back from anything. Been there remember [;)])

Lokasenna -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 7:46:51 PM)
Ouch.

offenseman -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 7:59:56 PM)
Ouch says it all. My sympathies. [X(]

Sangeli -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 8:38:53 PM)
[X(] Didn't expect the KB to show up so late to the party. And it seems they ruined it. You probably should have gotten more hits with your DBs but I think you were doomed from the start of this battle. The Japanese 6 CVs and 3 CVLs while you brought 6 CVs which includes 1 British; the Japanese could field more planes. Moreover, the Japanese had more BBs than you. Based off the report you posted it seems aircraft on both sides were targeting BBs but the Japanese had 5 to your 1 which meant your strike package against CVs was more diluted than Tom's. As for the DB accuracy I think that is probably mostly due to the number of escorting fighters vs fighters on CAP. Even if many of your DBs got through to the CVs I think their accuracy was greatly compromised by the fighters inevitably shooting at them as they approach their dive. You had only 64 escorts to 159 Japanese fighters on CAP; that's quite a large difference. On the other hand, the Japanese had 165 escorting fighters to your 101 fighters on CAP. I think that really makes a world of difference.

Encircled -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 8:42:56 PM)
Ouch indeed Think you might well be right in throwing in the towel to be honest

Cribtop -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 8:49:12 PM)
Ouch indeed. I had a similar CV battle with Cuttlefish once where his DBs in '42 just didn't hit jack. He referred to them as "epileptic circus clowns." IIRC weather in the hex was a big factor - light rain over the USN, t-storms over KB. He sure got there in a hurry. I would ask how close KB was on day 1 and how much he knew about your intentions. Was it a trap? As I've said before, that Mr. Kane is a good player.

BBfanboy -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 8:59:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Encircled Ouch indeed Think you might well be right in throwing in the towel to be honest I agree. Even if the Allies can fight their way back and start being aggressive again, it will take until late 1943 before that happens. At that stage there is not enough game time left to get to the home islands by late 1945. Better to negotiate a peace treaty now and then provoke a new war in 1945 when you have the A-bomb![:D]

Lowpe -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 9:21:15 PM)
That is an eye-opener and no mistake!

HansBolter -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 9:25:36 PM)
I see sickeningly typical IJN game invincibility that is as ahistorical as it gets. Of course we all know the Japanese will always slaughter the Allies in CV duels in '42 while getting away unscathed. Results like this make me want to break the game DVD in half and send it to the circular file.

Q-Ball -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 10:28:59 PM)
For what it's worth, I found Allied DBs similarly pathetic in 1942 in terms of hit ratios. I'll have to look at my AAR vs. Greyjoy, but I can remember a similar combat, and simliar CV result......ouch. EDIT: Looked it up, I had a 200-plane Allied CV strike acheive ZERO hits in one combat. Nada. So it happens....

DanSez -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 11:15:54 PM)
He seems to be fond of running his fleet full ahead speed to sweep in like that. [&:]

ny59giants -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/9/2014 11:19:40 PM)
Tonight would include a few [sm=party-smiley-012.gif][sm=party-smiley-012.gif] and a night away from the game before even thinking about what to do. Right now, day 2 will wipe out most of whats left afloat. A significant factor is the number of A6M5s present vs A6M2s and the performance difference of them (new DBB data). M2 - Spd 331 vs M5 Spd 351 = 20 M2 - Climb Rate of 2655 vs M5 of 3023 = 368 The Wildcat has a decent chance "IF" they have quality pilots vs M2, but the M5 is so much better and the need for the Hellcats shows up here. F4F-4 - Spd is 318 vs Hellcat Spd is 375 F6F-3 - Climb Rate is 1730 vs Hellcat's of 2740 With similar gun values, these numbers here are important, IMO when it comes to CV vs CV battles.

paullus99 -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 12:00:43 AM)
Crap, crap, crap....this is why I hate this JFB scenarios....throw in the towel Joc, no reason to be the whipping boy for the next two years.....I'm sorry.

Cribtop -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 12:19:35 AM)
Oddly enough, these results draw me to play the Allies. The challenge is appealing.

Mike McCreery -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 12:43:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cribtop Oddly enough, these results draw me to play the Allies. The challenge is appealing. If you have patience it is not much of a challenge at all :P

njp72 -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 1:25:54 AM)
Absolutely the A6M5s was the critical difference in the battle. Isn't that very early to have A6M5s? The allies aren't going to win carrier battles when the F4F vs A6M5 regardless of the other tactical factors. quote: ORIGINAL: ny59giants Tonight would include a few [sm=party-smiley-012.gif][sm=party-smiley-012.gif] and a night away from the game before even thinking about what to do. Right now, day 2 will wipe out most of whats left afloat. A significant factor is the number of A6M5s present vs A6M2s and the performance difference of them (new DBB data). M2 - Spd 331 vs M5 Spd 351 = 20 M2 - Climb Rate of 2655 vs M5 of 3023 = 368 The Wildcat has a decent chance "IF" they have quality pilots vs M2, but the M5 is so much better and the need for the Hellcats shows up here. F4F-4 - Spd is 318 vs Hellcat Spd is 375 F6F-3 - Climb Rate is 1730 vs Hellcat's of 2740 With similar gun values, these numbers here are important, IMO when it comes to CV vs CV battles.

njp72 -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 1:27:02 AM)
Really, perhaps I need to try harder :-) quote: ORIGINAL: Wargmr quote: ORIGINAL: Cribtop Oddly enough, these results draw me to play the Allies. The challenge is appealing. If you have patience it is not much of a challenge at all :P

Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 3:14:36 AM)
But still puzzles me, how can you get A6M5s in Sep 42 with PDU OFF and Realistic R&D? Was this a special scenario? Looking DBB Scen28: All KB fighters upgrade to A6M5 in 04/43... I know that by significantly accelerating the Ruffe, then you can get A6M5 early, but shouldn't PDU OFF make the update impossible until 04/43 ?

aleajactaest10044 -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 3:15:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JocMeister Disaster. [:(] J: Long time follower of your AAR's; mainly lurker on the forums. I appreciate your efforts (as well as your former nemesis Obvert's) with your AAR's. My apologies but this game is so skewed toward fantasy Japanese military performance that it serves more as a replay of a Harry Turtledove novel than an actual rendition of the Pacific War. I think it needs serious revamping on the subject of China, Japanese ASW, and Japanese aircraft research and production. Thanks again for playing the unplayable.

Lokasenna -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 3:18:51 AM)
I had A6M5s in 9/42 without any huge effort - only about 5-6 R&D factories from the Rufe line. It's more important to get the engine bonus, and harder to keep that going without big supply expenditures. I'm curious to see if MrKane has any screenshots of the days leading up to the battle. quote: ORIGINAL: paullus99 Crap, crap, crap....this is why I hate this JFB scenarios....throw in the towel Joc, no reason to be the whipping boy for the next two years.....I'm sorry. This isn't a "fanboi" scenario. I believe it's a scenario 1 base. I think there were just factors in this game, which I won't go into here, that led to this end result.

Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 3:24:29 AM)
But they are playing PDU OFF shouldn't the historical date of upgrade (04/43) be required? EDIT: After re-reading this thread, again and again http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3689727 I will answer my own question: the historical date is irrelevant, the trick is to have enough planes available (in the correct order of course). So as long as the Japanese player has enough planes (including any intermediate model), he can upgrade.

poodlebrain -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 3:31:59 AM)
You must have had a major failing of your searches to account for those results. The Japanese flew 823 sorties against your TFs and in defense of his TFs compared to 403 by the Allies. That is an incredible discrepancy given the deck space and aircraft differentials.

aztez -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 5:36:30 AM)
Ouch! That one did not work out and it hurts. No shame in throwing towel if you feel like it. Things will not improve for additional year or so. One thing I'am wondering how did he have his carriers in perfect spot to ambush your carrier fleets? Did your carriers attack some IJN subs in the area? ...and what were those TF's detection levels? Just a bit odd to me... oh well a said it turned ugly in this one.

GreyJoy -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 5:46:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aztez One thing I'am wondering how did he have his carriers in perfect spot to ambush your carrier fleets? Did your carriers attack some IJN subs in the area? ...and what were those TF's detection levels? Just a bit odd to me... oh well a said it turned ugly in this one. The operation took too long. Mavis and Emilies were present at Tabiutea when he conquered it, so i guess those very same aircrafts had the chance to spot the incoming invasion at least from 20 hexes away. Let's say more than 10 days from the first spotting to the actual battle... more than enough to move from truk in a good position. Not enough to stop the landing and sink the transports withthe troops aboard, but enough to ambush the carriers on their way back... Joc here took a too big risk. Allied operations, in this moment (mid 1942) should be as fast as possible. "GRab and go". Joc stayed there too much. He should have limited himself to Tabiutea only.. it would have been enough.. To get the A6M5 is very very easy, even with PDU ON and Realistic ON.

aztez -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 6:03:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreyJoy quote: ORIGINAL: aztez One thing I'am wondering how did he have his carriers in perfect spot to ambush your carrier fleets? Did your carriers attack some IJN subs in the area? ...and what were those TF's detection levels? Just a bit odd to me... oh well a said it turned ugly in this one. The operation took too long. Mavis and Emilies were present at Tabiutea when he conquered it, so i guess those very same aircrafts had the chance to spot the incoming invasion at least from 20 hexes away. Let's say more than 10 days from the first spotting to the actual battle... more than enough to move from truk in a good position. Not enough to stop the landing and sink the transports withthe troops aboard, but enough to ambush the carriers on their way back... Joc here took a too big risk. Allied operations, in this moment (mid 1942) should be as fast as possible. "GRab and go". Joc stayed there too much. He should have limited himself to Tabiutea only.. it would have been enough.. To get the A6M5 is very very easy, even with PDU ON and Realistic ON. Definately took a bit more time than it should. Those patrol aircraft should have been spotted either via DL's or operations reports. I have been playing longtime and it is very rarely you wohn't notice that you have been spotted. Would be intresting if Jocke had chance to run those turns from previous days [:)]

Encircled -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 8:16:08 AM)
Having thought about it, if Joc wants to continue, then he's going to have a real fight on his hands to hold on to Oz. For that reason alone, I hope he continues!

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 4:41:26 PM)
Hey guys! [:)] Well, after thinking about it for a day I just offered Tom my surrender. It was actually a pretty easy decision and I felt fairly certain about it right away when I saw the turn. In fact I have been thinking about it for quite some time now. But for Toms sake I wanted to really think it through as he wants to play on. Bottom line is that I don´t have the motivation to. Tom will with 100% certainty win by AV on 1/1/43. Even if I could turn the battle around tomorrow (small chance but its there) its absolutely unavoidable. The reason is China. Even if Tom doesn´t manage to take out Chungking (highly unlikely) the VPs from the bombardments there and other troop losses is more then enough to put him well above 4:1 and closer to 5:1. And that is not taking into account the very likely naval losses due to happen tomorrow. Most likely Tom will end up around 6:1 or even 7:1 when 43 kicks in. While it might sound foreign to many I don´t play to have "fun". I play to win. Thinking about it today I realized I can never play "for fun" again. I don´t find the game that fun really. What keeps me coming back to the game is the competition. This is the worlds most complicated chess game after all. [:)] For me everything in the game makes perfect sense that way. I don´t care if what happened in this game is "impossible". The beauty of it is measured in how well you play within the boundaries of the game and the pre agreed on HRs. Not what could or couldn´t have happened IRL. I don´t care about that. If I want to relive WW2 I will go read a book about it. [:)] The Battle So, going back to the battle. Actually everything is afloat. Only lost 3 APs which is a small miracle. [X(] Lex and Wasp can make full speed and can escape. Hornet might make it as she can make 16 knots. All the others are toast. Interestingly enough I now have the KB only 4 hexes from 9 CLs, 8 BBs, 14 CAs and about 70 DDs....could have...could have...but most likely not! [:)] Anyway its all moot by now. GJ hit the nail on the head. I messed up by going for Tarawa and put too much faith in CATs picking up Tom if he approached. I should have picked him up 2 turns ago though as he must have been well within range of either Kuria (12 CATS) or Johnson Island (12 CATS) but for some reason I didn´t. But as GJ says I should have landed on Tabi and then gotten the hell out. But I counted on the CATs picking him up and I (mistakenly) was pretty sure he was out of position with the KB refitting in the HI. Lesson learned! Must admit I´m pretty bummed out about my DBs doing so poorly. No luck for poor Jocke. [:D]

Cribtop -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 5:01:32 PM)
Jocke, did you notice any DL on your TFs from enemy search planes?

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 5:02:24 PM)
Also should take this opportunity to congratulate Tom. [:)] I certainly got the game I was looking for. Tom played the game masterfully using all his advantages to the maximum while exploiting and taking advantage of every allied weaknesses. While the Strat bombing in OZ was deviously clever I think where Tom really excelled was China. I know I played well there. Sure I made a few mistakes but nothing major. But he simply put on so much pressure everything just collapsed. I was never able to recover any losses and had to constantly throw everything I had into plugging holes all the time. Actually extremely fun...until supply runs out and everything just collapses. He did everything right and I failed to stop him. That won him the game. He simply outplayed me. [:)]

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (9/10/2014 5:05:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cribtop Jocke, did you notice any DL on your TFs from enemy search planes? Do you mean during the actual turn or earlier? While I was around the Gilberts he had a solid DL on me all the time. I think that dropped off when I left though. EDIT: No DL on my CVs or SCTF for the last 2 turns before the battle.

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