RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (Full Version)

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gradenko2k -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/27/2014 3:20:33 PM)

Giving the players the option to let the AI take a stab at giving you an inter-turn highlight reel, or at the bare minimum a "combat log" woudl be really useful for Combat Mission. Something like:

1:00:16 Squad X of Platoon Y from Company Z spotted a vehicle
1:00:18 Squad X of Platoon Y from Company Z received small-arms fire from n direction

And "vehicle" could be replaced with vaguer or more specific terms depending on the quality of the spotting, while "small-arms fire" could be replaced with "cannon fire" or "high-caliber machine gun fire" for the same reasons, and clicking on a line would set the simulation to that moment in time and pan the camera to the first-person of the reporting unit, as they see it.

(As an aside, similar functionality would be a godsend in War in the Pacific as well)



falco148 -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/27/2014 3:41:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Yep ASL. only costs you about 2000 bucks to play it, assuming you can find it as it is generally out of print right when you need a piece of it :)

ASL. likely THE most substantial example of over tweaked and over rules lawyered in all of wargaming. Although the A3R system and World in Flames can be impressive for that too.

It is possible, the RIGHT choice for Squad Leader might have been to never do anything past it and just hand out sets of new counters and boards of missing nations. But a wargamer not fiddle with a design? That's like asking a woman to be brief :)



Absolutely true. All the rules lawyering killed it for me. Can remember almost coming to blows playing against people who thought they knew the rules better than anybody else.

As another poster mentioned here, check out Battle Academy 2. A real blast to play and very realistic!



berto -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/27/2014 4:35:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

Turn based IGOUGO games and reality part paths. They have no time management. Most have to jury-rig in some sort of opportunity fire. WEGO games without the hex handicap are head and shoulders more realistic.

An interesting compromise: Conflict of Heroes

Strictly speaking, IGOUGO. But at a micro level. IGO, moving a single unit, expending all MPs or in part. Then UGO, moving a single unit, all or in part. (You have the option to move a unit all in one impulse. Or you can return to that unit in later impulses, if you still have unused MPs for it.) Then IGO, then UGO, ... When all units have moved, the turn ends.

Effectively WEGO, but IGOUGO at its core.

Too bad that COH is more or less abandonware, though. [:(]



aaatoysandmore -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/27/2014 6:24:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero

I don't think anyone needs ASL rights if they are not recreating that. We are 25 years forward in the future. Much more can be done with game design, graphics, and GUI. You can make a squad level game that is not ASL, and is rather far superior.

Again, Steel Panthers took us down that path. Now if we could also control building sizes and levels, and other features, it would be awesome.


A true turn based and hex based Combat Mission would have been really close as well. But, they went wego and you just can't keep up with all the action that way unless you want to watch replays 50 times a turn. I mean Combat Mission is ok to a point but so much is missed when you play long and large battles.

Turn based IGOUGO games and reality part paths. They have no time management. Most have to jury-rig in some sort of opportunity fire. WEGO games without the hex handicap are head and shoulders more realistic.


Never cared about realism up to a certain point; like era and types of units, infantry, armor, artillery stuff like that. No space ships in WW2 though. lol Most games I tend to play like chess anyways. Makes no difference if there is "realism" however close you think that can be with no real blood and guts and fear of dieing an other things associated with "realistic" real warfare. I often laugh when I see the word realism because no game really comes close to realism. Just a fasade of what the developer and the gamer thinks realism is I guess. Every game for that matter is just numbers hidden by a chit or an animated unit. They surely aren't authentic of the real thing by a long shot really. It's just what a person is willing to accept in simulated reality. Everyone is different when it comes to that. I've seen arguements galore on the Steel Panthers forums about the penetration values of certain tanks n such. No one can really agree on anything. It's too funny for words. Therefore I can't see how the wego system is any more real than turn based. It's just another form of approach and play of a game, many would argue that real time RTS games are more realistic it just depends on the gamer what "he" thinks. It's an ok system but not one "I" prefer.



aaatoysandmore -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/27/2014 6:28:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: falco


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Yep ASL. only costs you about 2000 bucks to play it, assuming you can find it as it is generally out of print right when you need a piece of it :)

ASL. likely THE most substantial example of over tweaked and over rules lawyered in all of wargaming. Although the A3R system and World in Flames can be impressive for that too.

It is possible, the RIGHT choice for Squad Leader might have been to never do anything past it and just hand out sets of new counters and boards of missing nations. But a wargamer not fiddle with a design? That's like asking a woman to be brief :)



Absolutely true. All the rules lawyering killed it for me. Can remember almost coming to blows playing against people who thought they knew the rules better than anybody else.

As another poster mentioned here, check out Battle Academy 2. A real blast to play and very realistic!


LOL sorry just had to laugh out loud here. [:D]



MrsWargamer -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/27/2014 9:45:54 PM)

I think too often too many get too caught up in the contextual meaning of the word realism.

Let me shoot at you with intent to kill you, and then you will experience realism :)
Sit under an artillery barrage sometime and try to remain calm, cool headed and focused on the plan :)

If a game is to succeed, it has to be fun. It must be possible for both sides to have fun equally. Ideally it has to be more fun than doing your taxes. If you never get to actually finish the game, it tends to fizzle soon as no one likes to never finish a game as the winner.

Games that tend to promote some behaviour that can suck the fun out of the experience, usually won't be as popular as the ones that downplay the negative. Mouse twitchy games won't appeal to absolutely everyone. Games with lame gamey tactics will turn off some. I've played both sides of all of the base game multi player maps for Battle Academy. There is no side that has the edge in any of them. There are no game killing super units that ruin it. Yes King Tiger is a formidable beast. But hit with some arty, then team up on it with mortars and infantry fire and close assault and frequently the opponent gets to watch his King Tiger surrender.

I've seen too many games though, either sell out to graphics, or over do the micro management, or just plain forget that the game has to actually be fun and playable and not end up feeling like a double shift at work :)

There is rarely any real realism in most games. Now, historical accuracy is something I like. If the unit didn't exist in that year, there is no reason it should be present. If the activity had less than a 5% chance of happening in the most extreme of cases, then it likely shouldn't even be an option.

It's fun playing the Sealion expansion of Battle Academy. But there is no way you are ever going to sell me on that event ever being possible in the real world.



geozero -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/27/2014 10:14:24 PM)

I think when discussing "realism" (at least for me) it is meant as historical accuracy and realistic in modeling weapons and map/terrain. I don't think it is intended to state that the depiction of the savagery of war, carnage and death are represented in a game.



aaatoysandmore -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/27/2014 10:32:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero

I think when discussing "realism" (at least for me) it is meant as historical accuracy and realistic in modeling weapons and map/terrain. I don't think it is intended to state that the depiction of the savagery of war, carnage and death are represented in a game.


Ahhh that makes more sense that a game can be "historically accurate" than "realistic". Sometimes wording really makes a difference in the discussions. [:D]



MrsWargamer -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/27/2014 11:14:24 PM)

Well I've seen discussions in the past where realism, accuracy, and all that seems to be something the poster might have no real grasp of :)

I honestly think some have honestly thought they really expected the game was more 'real' than another, as if ANY games were inherently 'real' :)



wodin -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 12:41:02 AM)

There is a fine line between realism and ruined gameplay. The right balance needs to be achieved. Though I'm all for as much realism as possible.



Mobius -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 12:58:17 AM)

So then what do people miss about ASL, rules lawyering? Because few games can compare.
‘My obscure rule x.23.3 overrules your obscure rule z.133.2.a.’

I used to go to game conventions with a large group of friends. At the end of the con those that played board games or miniatures all had a good time. Those that were in ASL competitions came back frazzled and exhausted.



aaatoysandmore -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 1:02:48 AM)

I think it all comes back to K.I.S.S. when you get too far away from that is when games become long and boring (for me anyways) I'm like MrsWargamer in that respect about Battle Academy when I want something simple to play an easy I will play that. When I want a little bit more I will play Steel Panthers. When I want to play with toy soldiers I'll usually play Panzer Command Osfront, Norbsoft's civilwar games or CMx1 old school. There's something for everyone just not enough of any though really. I don't have a large enough selection that I like in any catagory atm.



MrsWargamer -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 2:17:51 AM)

Heheh so many posts asking even bitching about Gary getting off the pot and making a reborn Steel Panthers.

But the more I play my sorted out and figured out Steel Panthers 3 Brigade Combat title from the 90s (because I don't think the title ever left the 90s), and then I compare it to a sitting of Battle Academy, and I find myself wondering, well dear, you COULD have spent an hour playing BA, but you spent and hour playing SP3, and you likely would have had more fun with BA.

My ASL is currently sitting in a storage bin. I have a long time old friend that is swimming in income, and he has essentially told me he's going to help me find that 5k down payment loan on a house one way or another by loaning me the funds. We have pretty much discussed my putting the ASL and some of my other titles up as trade. The stuff is not fully worth 5K in some ways of thinking. Yeah with some very nice luck, who knows, I might manage it on eBay, if I liked eBay (and I don't). But the thing is, he's willing to help (and he's always wanted my ASL any way). We played it back when it was still just called Squad Leader.

I would regret selling my ASL, right up to the point where I plunk down the down payment sign the mortgage and start packing to move into my own house. Hmm ASL or a house. Gee what a tough call :)

ASL is a truly remarkable game, a level of detail hard to describe. Every turn is full of 'how the heck did you manage that?'. Results that mirror real life mainly as WW2 was basically that eh, a lot of moments in time when you read about it and you wonder, 'how the bloody hell did that really happen?'. Ever read about the heroic defense by Audie Murphy? You can actually do that in ASL, good lucky getting to experience that sort of outrageous luck in any other game easily. I've had similar results in some of the games I have played. One single man counter and a radio, and a refusal to die, sitting under an artillery barrage himself, calling in artillery on an attacking enemy force and wiping them out in the process. Awesome stuff in a game.

But the manual, what a read. Learning that in and IN are not the same word. You see one is written in upper case, and that matters eh. Then there is adjacent, which is not the same as ADJACENT. And the rules cases going through 1.0 1.001 1.002 1.0023 Because the little details matter. It's not like any of the guys like arguing, but in a lot of cases, you can find yourself disagreeing and it can often be a problem figuring out who is actually wrong. Usually, the best games are where with a rules disagreement, often the best way to resolve it is odds my way, evens your way, and just refuse to care who was really correct. Why waste 20-30 minutes reading a manual trying to figure out something that simply might not really mean a lot.

Where BA shines, is it is squads, not a lot of them, vehicles and guns, and artillery support and airstrikes and even sometimes awesome naval gunfire. The terrain map is not so big you spend a lot of time scrolling. The terrain is nice to look at. The squares are not hard to get used to. People eventually realize that 3 squares away is not really the same as 3 hexes away in hex based games. Movement is either cautious or speedy, and it has an effect on your performance. The game simulates some forms of ammo supplies and some things run out. Units get varying amounts of choices based on how they spend their turns action points. The game has a chess like quality, every unit really counts. That is similar to ASL where losing some units can really hurt your chances. In most games of Steel Panthers, it isn't easy to get too worked up when so many scenarios have so many units.

But some people just can't get past the graphics. Some feel a need to denigrate the game, call it beer and pretzels as if you can't drink beer and eat pretzels with any damned game eh. It's not like you are forbidden to enjoy beer and pretzels playing War in the East.
A fast turn just means you get to play the next one sooner. A very very very long tedious turn and lengthy game is really just risking being something that never gets finished.

A book doesn't become better if it is 4 times the thickness. Movies don't become better if they are 7 hours long. Magnitude is not a determining factor in quality.

When they did the ASL starter kits, I was severely disappointed actually. They could have done them so many ways. I think they picked the wrong one. Who knows, ASL might be a game that is doomed to die with the demographic that made Squad Leader. Because it doesn't really have a lot of appeal to the young. And no, just because a small percentage of the old guard were able to play a few 30 somethings is no reason for joy.

I don't want Squad Leader on a computer.

I'd like to see BA become a Middle eastern wars release next. Then a Korea release maybe. Then maybe a Vietnam release. Heck I could enjoy playing BA releases till the world stops spinning :)



wodin -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 3:59:43 AM)

I'd love to see ASL on the PC..

Not sure how you can even make a comparison between BA and ASL. BA is a light chess like experience aimed at a more mainstream market. The game could be reskinned and sold as a sci fi game for instance. Personally I'd love to see the units as WH40K instead of WW2 as I reckon I'd get more immersed in it, would hardly need any other changes.. ASL is trying to replicate WW2 tactical warfare in as much detail as possible and certainly not for anyone who doesn't have n interest in WW2 and tactical warfare.

ASL without the need to remember all the rules and with an AI..lovely.



falco148 -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 5:47:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: falco


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Yep ASL. only costs you about 2000 bucks to play it, assuming you can find it as it is generally out of print right when you need a piece of it :)

ASL. likely THE most substantial example of over tweaked and over rules lawyered in all of wargaming. Although the A3R system and World in Flames can be impressive for that too.

It is possible, the RIGHT choice for Squad Leader might have been to never do anything past it and just hand out sets of new counters and boards of missing nations. But a wargamer not fiddle with a design? That's like asking a woman to be brief :)



Absolutely true. All the rules lawyering killed it for me. Can remember almost coming to blows playing against people who thought they knew the rules better than anybody else.

As another poster mentioned here, check out Battle Academy 2. A real blast to play and very realistic!


LOL sorry just had to laugh out loud here. [:D]



Well I'm glad I made someone laugh today....[:)]

Each to his own I guess. IMHO it plays out just as realistically as ASL ever did.



Mobius -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 8:29:42 AM)

For us WWII micro-armor miniature game players Squad Leader was a godsend. The printed counters were the ideal size. Their use in gaming freed up our time to just painting miniature tanks and not having to fiddle with painting infantry models. I think it became rare to even seen painted infantry on a WWII miniatures table (at least in the 6mm mini scale) after ASL came out and there was no market for SL anymore. Thus many a SL game were used for parts.



MrsWargamer -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 12:11:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'd love to see ASL on the PC..

Not sure how you can even make a comparison between BA and ASL. BA is a light chess like experience aimed at a more mainstream market. The game could be reskinned and sold as a sci fi game for instance. Personally I'd love to see the units as WH40K instead of WW2 as I reckon I'd get more immersed in it, would hardly need any other changes.. ASL is trying to replicate WW2 tactical warfare in as much detail as possible and certainly not for anyone who doesn't have n interest in WW2 and tactical warfare.

ASL without the need to remember all the rules and with an AI..lovely.


It's easy to compare ASL to BA. Both are squad tactical. Both are WW2. Both are great games. Both have limited map size, limited forces required and both can be played in a single sitting.

One just happens to have a design that is minutiae dominated and possesses an interactive interleaved turn structure that makes IGOUGO simply not an option. That it is 'turn based' is simply not relevant. Picture a turn sequence like this. I move a unit, spending 1 movement point, any response from you? Now send back and forth interactive turns like that potentially dozens and dozens of times, just to move 20 units in a single turn.

Actual ASL on a computer isn't going to happen. It has nothing to do with the power of our computers. It's just not a viable choice. The moment you eliminate any of the turn sequence, it isn't ASL and then you get the question 'so why bother calling it ASL?'.

I will be sipping on fine wine, and eating in my million dollar mansion long before they are able to make an AI for the game. It's nice to have dreams, but an AI for ASL is just a pipe dream.

Being able to keep track of the rules, is really more about playing the game frequently. In the 80s, I was able to remember the entire manual in my head. In the 90s, my ability to recall the design started to fade. I have seen no playing this whole century sadly, and I am not sure I even remember how to play to a point. But they have some great fan made emanuals out there. Referencing the game lately with a tablet is likely quite popular at the conventions (that's a guess? I've never been to one).

BA isn't a lite Chess like experience by the way :)
It's a very hard game against a good player the same way Chess is no walk in the park if your opponent is any good.

My current opponent is currently getting quite the trashing. I'm almost thinking of screwing up a bit just to stop discouraging him for a while :)

Calling some wargames 'lite' is often really just making the speaker sound silly. The phrase beer and pretzels only makes the person using it sound uninformed.



gradenko2k -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 1:12:38 PM)

quote:

One just happens to have a design that is minutiae dominated and possesses an interactive interleaved turn structure that makes IGOUGO simply not an option. That it is 'turn based' is simply not relevant. Picture a turn sequence like this. I move a unit, spending 1 movement point, any response from you? Now send back and forth interactive turns like that potentially dozens and dozens of times, just to move 20 units in a single turn.


I know that PBEM is rather big in the wargame scene, but people orchestrate games of Scourge of War all the time - it's not unreasonable to expect that you could do a live-multiplayer match of Computer ASL if turn sequences are too small and too back-and-forth.

Besides, small, back-and-forth turn sequences have been shown to work in Shenandoah Studios' games - you just have to streamline the PBEM interface to make it as smooth as possible. Having to go through a long boot-up sequence and a bunch of menus to load a game and manually uploading your turn once done is a no-go, but the way Commander the Great War or Unity of Command does it would be much better (to draw a non-iOS example)



vonRocko -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 2:00:24 PM)


" BA isn't a lite Chess like experience by the way :)"
It is barely above Panzer Korp in depth. If BA isn't "lite", I don't know what is.



MrsWargamer -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 2:09:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko


" BA isn't a lite Chess like experience by the way :)"
It is barely above Panzer Korp in depth. If BA isn't "lite", I don't know what is.


Well seeing as you asked the question, no, you have no idea what lite means. Or rather you have a skewed perception of the relevance of the word lite in the context of wargaming. Lite is normally used to refer to something as lacking bloat, lacking excess salt or sugar or fat. In that way of thinking, it is hardly a bad thing. Although too many wargamers seem to suggest through implication, that lite is a downside a negative a bad thing.

You might wish to research the original meaning of the word 'sophisticated'. To call War in the East sophisticated, is fairly accurate, although not in the way you likely think that term means. The original usage meant possessing worthless or extraneous pointless clutter or fanciness, excessive detail and valueless over abundance.

Panzer Corps is also not a bad game design. It too is not in any fashion lacking for lacking 'sophistication'.

Remember, when arguing a case with a veteran ASLer, try to know precisely the value of the exact terminology or we generally just tear the comment to shreds :)



vonRocko -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 2:33:39 PM)

I'm also a "veteran asl player" and have been playing board and computer wargames for 40 years now. So instead of lite, which really seems to bother you, I will use the term "introductory" or "beginners" wargame for BA. Whatever terminology you want to use, doesn't change the fact that BA is a fun, lite, beginners wargame. No comparison to ASL, except the scale and setting.



aaatoysandmore -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 3:01:23 PM)

[sm=00000613.gif]



MrsWargamer -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 3:40:03 PM)

I see your ASL veteranship, and your 40 years and I call :) (I've been playing since 1975).

No BA isn't introductory or beginner. Unless you think you can beat me that casually.

Do you think Chess is introductory and beginner too? I mean, it only takes me a minute to explain how to play it and I can play a turn in Chess in less time than this post will take to type.

I seem to see too man wargamers, simply too badly conned into thinking tedious = serious.

No, tedious only = tedious :)



MrsWargamer -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 3:40:52 PM)

Share that popcorn young man.



vonRocko -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 3:51:15 PM)

You win. I'll move BA into the "advanced" level of gaming![sm=scared0018.gif]



geozero -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/28/2014 3:58:58 PM)

Every game is to a player whatever their expectations are going into the game and their own experience. It's pointless to argue that this game or that game is better. Personally I look for games that have longevity or playability. The V For Victory games had that. The game I spent YEARS working on (Combined Arms by none other than Matrix) would have had great depth, awesome scenario editor and lots of playability. Sadly it is languishing in its 15 or 16th year of "development" But I digress.

The GUI has to be up to par. You need to have control of resolution. A game that can be modded, so that users can change the look of the GUI are better. It takes care of a lot of issues that players have: unable to see small fonts, replacing hideous graphics, etc. Games that do not offer these are sort of deadlocked IMO, and will not get a larger fan base than they otherwise might receive.



MrsWargamer -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (9/29/2014 12:12:17 PM)

Those V4Victory titles were indeed good games. I still have the disks, pretending there is a point to keeping them.

I should see if my buddy can figure those out too like he did my Steel Panthers 3 game.



wodin -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (12/20/2014 1:34:20 PM)

Have to agree here.

BA is a great little game in it's own right but it isn't some deep, complex, tactical sim.

I too hope we will see a new Gary Grigsby Steel Panthers, which I think will be closest we'll ever get to ASL conversion. However unless the development runs concurrently with their big Monster War in the ... series I can't see it happening, just not enough time\years to do it along with the other lined up projects.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

I'm also a "veteran asl player" and have been playing board and computer wargames for 40 years now. So instead of lite, which really seems to bother you, I will use the term "introductory" or "beginners" wargame for BA. Whatever terminology you want to use, doesn't change the fact that BA is a fun, lite, beginners wargame. No comparison to ASL, except the scale and setting.




Cataphract88 -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (12/20/2014 2:24:21 PM)

Acropora has done some good work recently on some ASL scenarios over at the Mods section of the 'Lock 'n' Load' forum. Well worth checking out. [:)][:)][:)]



Hyregoth -> RE: Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion? (3/21/2015 6:42:15 PM)

Have you guys tried Battleground Ardennes by Talon Soft? It's an older game but they have upgraded it for Win 7 (look on Ebay). I played the older version to death. It uses the squad leader sequence of play but only covers the Battle of the Bulge. I was left wanting more.....



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