RE: Invasion West Coast! (Full Version)

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Anachro -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/10/2016 3:38:26 AM)

You are all wrong...this is a feint for the real operation towards the Eastern United States and dictation of terms in the White House itself!



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/10/2016 7:43:31 AM)

Epic battle coming up. I second the notion of archiving your save so we can experiment with different approaches later.[:)]

EDIT: Would be great if you could give us some idea of your defenses and base levels on the map (e.g. 2 ID, 1 RCT, 1 BF, 1 Tk Bn / AF:2; P:2; F:5).

Cheers,
CC



JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/10/2016 5:24:26 PM)

Hi guys.

Working on the turn and I hope I will have time to update with some more info after that. [:)]




poodlebrain -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/10/2016 5:35:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Hi guys.

Working on the turn and I hope I will have time to update with some more info after that. [:)]


Take your time getting the turn right. I'll survive, somehow, until you can get around to updating the AAR. I feel bad asking for so much background information, but this is a battle for the ages. The history buffs, and armchair generals, among your readers are just wanting as complete a picture as possible. I think the questions you have been getting are the best evidence of the importance of information/intelligence to players of the game.



SqzMyLemon -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/10/2016 5:49:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

You may be right about strat VP's simply for flipping. In our game we gave up about 300 Strat VP's when Brisbane fell. Perhaps from damaged or destroyed shipyard or heavy industry?


I can confirm. You get ZERO strategic VP's by capturing with ground forces. I captured Sydney and not a single strategic VP was gained. This seems like a huge oversight in my opinion. If you bomb you get the points, but if you actually capture the facilities you can't destroy them to get the points. Go figure.



JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/10/2016 6:41:23 PM)

Allied response pt II
_____________________________________________________________________________

Jeff timed his invasion horribly. My father in law is visiting to babysit the kids tomorrow as I leave for my brother in laws 40th B-day. He is throwing a huge party as he spent the last 9 years not celebrating his B-days telling everyone "I´ll throw a big one on my 40th...." [:D]

Just sent the turn back to Jeff but it will be the last one until Sunday evening I´m afraid.

------------------------
Allied forces on the WC
------------------------
See the attached map for more details. As someone said I think I have a two day warning. Possibly even three. This means I will have my defense up and running for the most part. I need to hold for about a week before reinforcements will arrive. I´m 99% sure this won´t be an issue.

As I mentioned earlier the plan is to turtle up at SD and LA while we gather reinforcements and then counter attack. I´ll rest my air force for now. I will only get one shot and I don´t want to waste it trying to punch through the KB cap. PT boats are moving down from the North and will arrive in 3-4 days. I have a small navy at SF. A few CLs and some DDs. I have an idea what to do with them.

I´m really glad I acted last turn already. Feels like I got a head start.

------------------------
NORPAC
------------------------
While i´m 99,8% sure the invasion is the real deal the threat still remains in NORPAC. I have to keep a strong force here. At least for now. Some of the RGT have been shifted to strat mode and will move a bit south where they will be in range to response to both North and South.

------------------------
Initial thoughts/musings
------------------------
Finally. Been waiting for the push to come. This was the 2nd best thing that could have happened for the allies. While I would have preferred a Japanese counter attack in India as I´m stronger there this move puts a lot of PERM restricted allied forces into play. It also triggers some powerful reinforcements which wouldn´t have become available in India.

I have prepared for this for over a year. Forts are strong. Troops are upgraded and ready. We will prevail.


------------------------
Openings
------------------------
Obviously the presence of KB on the WC opens up huge possibilities elsewhere. Plans are now set in motion. In fact I spent more time setting these up then I did sorting through the WC. I should have prepared better though but I hope to begin loading troops within 7-10 days. 3 big invasions within 20-30 days.


[image]local://upfiles/32406/FBC2D025C6054DBEBCF104A51AFE892A.jpg[/image]



JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/10/2016 6:42:59 PM)

I see Jeff updated his AAR. I might get the replay in time for an update. If not I won´t be back until Sunday.



poodlebrain -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/10/2016 9:14:31 PM)

This is going to be the Battle of Sumatra fought by CanoeRebel and JohnIII with Lowpe playing the role of invader and you being the defender. The results are going to be a crushing defeat for the invaders, without any of the benefits CanoeRebel got from tying down Japanese forces for 6 months.

The capture of San Diego by the Japanese would be a miracle. The capture of Los Angeles an impossibility unless the Americans abandon the city. There can be no Dunkirk for the Japanese units put ashore. Extraction will require possession of a significant port. So all LCUs committed to the invasion are forfeit. It is just a matter of time, and the Americans get to use units that would have been idle for any other purpose.

The Allies will establish air supremacy in short order due to availability of bases. The only significant Japanese air presence will be the KB, and its primary task will be protection of Japanese shipping. Any strikes launched by the KB will have minimal escort. The combination of Allied CAP and AA will shred attacking aircraft. Allied LB will have a field day attacking Japanese troops in clear terrain.

The Allies are not at risk of losing any major naval assets while the Japanese have practically everything at risk. The Allies can commit to battle at their choosing while the Japanese must commit their ships to restricted areas of operation for the duration of the invasion. The only problem is getting the Allied combat TFs into position because of inadequate ports to operate from.



obvert -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/10/2016 9:49:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Jeff timed his invasion horribly. My father in law is visiting to babysit the kids tomorrow as I leave for my brother in laws 40th B-day. He is throwing a huge party as he spent the last 9 years not celebrating his B-days telling everyone "I´ll throw a big one on my 40th...." [:D]

Just sent the turn back to Jeff but it will be the last one until Sunday evening I´m afraid.



Don't you mean Tuesday?

There will be beer right? Nine years of celebrating packed into one party full of Swedes who last time out ended the night in a German lock-up? [:D]



JeffroK -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/10/2016 11:09:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Jeff timed his invasion horribly. My father in law is visiting to babysit the kids tomorrow as I leave for my brother in laws 40th B-day. He is throwing a huge party as he spent the last 9 years not celebrating his B-days telling everyone "I´ll throw a big one on my 40th...." [:D]

Just sent the turn back to Jeff but it will be the last one until Sunday evening I´m afraid.



Don't you mean Tuesday?

There will be beer right? Nine years of celebrating packed into one party full of Swedes who last time out ended the night in a German lock-up? [:D]


But there was Football involved.

Oooops, there is Football On!!!



JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 7:24:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

This is going to be the Battle of Sumatra fought by CanoeRebel and JohnIII with Lowpe playing the role of invader and you being the defender. The results are going to be a crushing defeat for the invaders, without any of the benefits CanoeRebel got from tying down Japanese forces for 6 months.

The capture of San Diego by the Japanese would be a miracle. The capture of Los Angeles an impossibility unless the Americans abandon the city. There can be no Dunkirk for the Japanese units put ashore. Extraction will require possession of a significant port. So all LCUs committed to the invasion are forfeit. It is just a matter of time, and the Americans get to use units that would have been idle for any other purpose.

The Allies will establish air supremacy in short order due to availability of bases. The only significant Japanese air presence will be the KB, and its primary task will be protection of Japanese shipping. Any strikes launched by the KB will have minimal escort. The combination of Allied CAP and AA will shred attacking aircraft. Allied LB will have a field day attacking Japanese troops in clear terrain.

The Allies are not at risk of losing any major naval assets while the Japanese have practically everything at risk. The Allies can commit to battle at their choosing while the Japanese must commit their ships to restricted areas of operation for the duration of the invasion. The only problem is getting the Allied combat TFs into position because of inadequate ports to operate from.


I hope you are right. Judging by the replay he is going to land between LA and SD. Rail will probably be cut tomorrow assuming his transports are among the most forward TFs. That means I will have to defend it with 3 divisions, 1 USMC RGT and a Tank BTL.

Its a clear hex...but level 9 forts. I don´t know if this is something Japan can take on.



JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 7:26:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Don't you mean Tuesday?

There will be beer right? Nine years of celebrating packed into one party full of Swedes who last time out ended the night in a German lock-up? [:D]


Oh there will be beer... [:D]

I don´t think there will be any lock ups this time though. Wife AND mother will be at the party...that usually dampens my spirit! [:D]



JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 7:29:27 AM)

Invasion!!!
_____________________________________________________________________________

Here is the latest screen. Looks like he will land at Pendleton and/or Santa Ana. The former has a level 6 AF which I don´t want him to have. SA only has a level 2.

What worries me right now is that if he lands next turn I don´t really know where the 3rd USMC will stop their rail movement. What worries me is if they stop right at the landing site...


[image]local://upfiles/32406/8E75EFF568CA4AD3B5FE3F58BDB0926F.jpg[/image]



IJV -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 10:20:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

This is going to be the Battle of Sumatra fought by CanoeRebel and JohnIII with Lowpe playing the role of invader and you being the defender. The results are going to be a crushing defeat for the invaders, without any of the benefits CanoeRebel got from tying down Japanese forces for 6 months.

The capture of San Diego by the Japanese would be a miracle. The capture of Los Angeles an impossibility unless the Americans abandon the city. There can be no Dunkirk for the Japanese units put ashore. Extraction will require possession of a significant port. So all LCUs committed to the invasion are forfeit. It is just a matter of time, and the Americans get to use units that would have been idle for any other purpose.

The Allies will establish air supremacy in short order due to availability of bases. The only significant Japanese air presence will be the KB, and its primary task will be protection of Japanese shipping. Any strikes launched by the KB will have minimal escort. The combination of Allied CAP and AA will shred attacking aircraft. Allied LB will have a field day attacking Japanese troops in clear terrain.

The Allies are not at risk of losing any major naval assets while the Japanese have practically everything at risk. The Allies can commit to battle at their choosing while the Japanese must commit their ships to restricted areas of operation for the duration of the invasion. The only problem is getting the Allied combat TFs into position because of inadequate ports to operate from.


I hope you are right. Judging by the replay he is going to land between LA and SD. Rail will probably be cut tomorrow assuming his transports are among the most forward TFs. That means I will have to defend it with 3 divisions, 1 USMC RGT and a Tank BTL.

Its a clear hex...but level 9 forts. I don´t know if this is something Japan can take on.


Do you have any transport aircraft in the US at the moment? Might be worth figuring out what you can figure out as far as moving things around by air...



tiemanjw -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 5:50:49 PM)

quote:

What worries me right now is that if he lands next turn I don´t really know where the 3rd USMC will stop their rail movement. What worries me is if they stop right at the landing site...


landing / unloading happens prior to overland movement within the turn, so if he lands on a rail line you are trying to transit through, they will stop on the tracks where he lands.



BillBrown -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 6:57:16 PM)

I would stop the 3rd marine at LA. You do not want it trying to convert from Strat to Combat mode in the same hex as he is in.
From your picture you will have 2 Armored Divisions in LA this turn. Get them out of Strat mode and ready to march. If he lands
at either Santa Anna or Pendleton it will still take him 4 - 6 days to get to SD. Your Armored Divisions should take 3 days to
unpack and then in reserve or move mode will move one hex per day.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 10:12:42 PM)

LA Seems invulnerable with 2 divisions and level 9 forts in an urban hex.

Even in San Diego he will need regiments of combat engineers to impale themselves on the punji sticks. The lads in San Diego will be more vulnerable to air attack and naval bombardment.



JohnDillworth -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 10:42:21 PM)

quote:

The lads in San Diego will be more vulnerable to air attack and naval bombardment

How effective are air attacks going to be on San Diego? Bombardment? I suppose. Every BB gets to unload for a turn or two and then they are done with reloads 3,000 miles away



BBfanboy -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 10:43:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

The lads in San Diego will be more vulnerable to air attack and naval bombardment

How effective are air attacks going to be on San Diego? Bombardment? I suppose. Every BB gets to unload for a turn or two and then they are done with reloads 3,000 miles away

All he needs is one of the channel islands and an AKE or two ...



witpqs -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 10:54:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

LA Seems invulnerable with 2 divisions and level 9 forts in an urban hex.

Even in San Diego he will need regiments of combat engineers to impale themselves on the punji sticks. The lads in San Diego will be more vulnerable to air attack and naval bombardment.

The strict regulations prohibiting human use of beaches, rocks - any waterfront at all - where seals have taken up station would make landing in San Diego very slow and arduous.



Canoerebel -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/11/2016 11:01:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

This is going to be the Battle of Sumatra fought by CanoeRebel and JohnIII with Lowpe playing the role of invader and you being the defender. The results are going to be a crushing defeat for the invaders, without any of the benefits CanoeRebel got from tying down Japanese forces for 6 months....



I had complete surprise in Sumatra and nearly got away with it. In this case, Lowpe's coming in against a prepared opponent. [X(]

When I think about the state of my West Coast defenses in January 1943 compared to Jocke's, I shudder. What if John had invaded West Coast in my game? He'd have found most of my bases with just two to four forts. I did have a fair number of ground troops available, but not as many as Jocke does. Lowpe would've stood a much better chance against me, me thinks.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/12/2016 12:27:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

LA Seems invulnerable with 2 divisions and level 9 forts in an urban hex.

Even in San Diego he will need regiments of combat engineers to impale themselves on the punji sticks. The lads in San Diego will be more vulnerable to air attack and naval bombardment.

The strict regulations prohibiting human use of beaches, rocks - any waterfront at all - where seals have taken up station would make landing in San Diego very slow and arduous.


And all that paperwork! In English!



JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/12/2016 3:08:46 PM)

Thanks for the comments guys.

Ida got chickenpox during the night so things are problematic at home. Probably wont be able to flip the turn back to Jeff tonight nor update.

J




Cap Mandrake -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/12/2016 3:16:07 PM)

If they land at Camp Pendleton they need to stay outside the taped-off cactus wren habitat or they will have
Hell to pay. Also, I hope they have paid off a few guys on the Coastal Commission or they will never increase the AF size.

Recipe for bombardment:

1) Take Catalina and dump supply
2) Set up Support TF with 4 AKE's and an AO
3) Set home base of bombardment TF to Catalina..the TF will return to Catalina
4) Rearm 3-4 BB's each night
5) Some will be able to make the bombardment run the next day

SD has some serious CD guns as I recall. They can be purposely targeted in Port Attacks. IJN will lose some DD's to mines.

Air attacks:

1) Sweep with carrier fighters
2) Level bomb with Kates at 15K on AF attack to avoid AAA
3) Vals stay on Naval Attack
4) Build up Catalina and Camp Pendleton AF

The question is can they do all of this before 200 P-38's and 100 B-17's show up?



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/12/2016 3:17:32 PM)

Sorry about the little one with chickenpox.



poodlebrain -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/12/2016 4:49:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

If they land at Camp Pendleton they need to stay outside the taped-off cactus wren habitat or they will have
Hell to pay. Also, I hope they have paid off a few guys on the Coastal Commission or they will never increase the AF size.

Recipe for bombardment:

1) Take Catalina and dump supply
2) Set up Support TF with 4 AKE's and an AO
3) Set home base of bombardment TF to Catalina..the TF will return to Catalina
4) Rearm 3-4 BB's each night
5) Some will be able to make the bombardment run the next day

SD has some serious CD guns as I recall. They can be purposely targeted in Port Attacks. IJN will lose some DD's to mines.

Air attacks:

1) Sweep with carrier fighters
2) Level bomb with Kates at 15K on AF attack to avoid AAA
3) Vals stay on Naval Attack
4) Build up Catalina and Camp Pendleton AF

The question is can they do all of this before 200 P-38's and 100 B-17's show up?
How do the Japanese defend Catalina? The KB will have to provide air defense for the base, and any TFs. Who is going to provide defense against PT raids every night, subs and whatever other forces the Allies can cobble together to raid Catalina? I wouldn't expect the Japanese to have their full allotment of operations points available for rearming ships.

Mounting air attacks will not be too practical for the Japanese. Assigning carrier fighters to sweep missions is wishful thinking. They are needed to protect Japanese shipping. There will hardly be enough to assign any to escort missions for any bombing missions. One stumble into a CAP trap and the entire IJN becomes at risk of having its air defense overwhelmed.

Once those 100 B-17s show up Catalina will not be safe for ships at anchor, and the port will likely be too damaged to do much loading and unloading of cargo.



jmalter -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/12/2016 4:50:28 PM)

I'm really glad to know that you've allowed your perm-restricted LCUs to upgrade their devices. That's gonna make a big difference - plus it shows you've got a bit of 'strategic foresight' working in your favor!

You've stated that you plan to be conservative w/ your airgroups, & that might be best. But the SD/LA area should be alive-o w/ USMC fighters, DBs & TBs - ship-killers w/ escorts! Using the range setting to restrict them to the invasion hexes, you can extract a terrible price on the IJN transports & wear down the IJ fighters. Your USArmy fighters & bombers can hold back - if Channel Islands or Santa Catalina are captured, they can all-out Port Attack to destroy the enemy AKEs. When those ships are gone, the IJ invasion support (KB & BB) must retire.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/12/2016 5:10:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

If they land at Camp Pendleton they need to stay outside the taped-off cactus wren habitat or they will have
Hell to pay. Also, I hope they have paid off a few guys on the Coastal Commission or they will never increase the AF size.

Recipe for bombardment:

1) Take Catalina and dump supply
2) Set up Support TF with 4 AKE's and an AO
3) Set home base of bombardment TF to Catalina..the TF will return to Catalina
4) Rearm 3-4 BB's each night
5) Some will be able to make the bombardment run the next day

SD has some serious CD guns as I recall. They can be purposely targeted in Port Attacks. IJN will lose some DD's to mines.

Air attacks:

1) Sweep with carrier fighters
2) Level bomb with Kates at 15K on AF attack to avoid AAA
3) Vals stay on Naval Attack
4) Build up Catalina and Camp Pendleton AF

The question is can they do all of this before 200 P-38's and 100 B-17's show up?
How do the Japanese defend Catalina? The KB will have to provide air defense for the base, and any TFs. Who is going to provide defense against PT raids every night, subs and whatever other forces the Allies can cobble together to raid Catalina? I wouldn't expect the Japanese to have their full allotment of operations points available for rearming ships.

Mounting air attacks will not be too practical for the Japanese. Assigning carrier fighters to sweep missions is wishful thinking. They are needed to protect Japanese shipping. There will hardly be enough to assign any to escort missions for any bombing missions. One stumble into a CAP trap and the entire IJN becomes at risk of having its air defense overwhelmed.

Once those 100 B-17s show up Catalina will not be safe for ships at anchor, and the port will likely be too damaged to do much loading and unloading of cargo.


Well, I didn't say it was going to be easy. [:D]

You defend Catalina with ships. That's what they are for. [:)] Once you take Santa Ana or Pendleton you fly off Zeroes from the CVE's and you put the AKE's at Pendleton. The Allied emergency reinforcements may not be very good at anti-naval attacks. Even so, I think the B-17's and P-38's will be a major headache for Japan.



RangerJoe -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/12/2016 7:43:52 PM)

Rufes and other seaplanes can also provide support even if it is not the best.

P-39s at 100 feet and attack bombers at 1000 feet would take and give a lot of damage but if they fly at the same time and target as the high level B-17s, it will be difficult for the CAP to deal with.

How about airdropping mines at the islands, the suspected landing areas and the bombardment targets? If the mines can be dropped at night, the planes might face no CAP. If allowed, night port strikes would also be useful. Combined with PT TFs with 2 boats each, it would keep the enemy fleets busy and hinder the unloading of the transports. Combined, those two things can draw out any invasion. You might consider suicidal daylight PT boat attacks to draw KB airstrikes into CAP traps. Draw down his fighter numbers and decrease his air units morale then launch your big air strikes before he can do another airplane replenishment for his KB air groups.

You might even consider having Armored units moving towards suspected landing sites to shock attack the landings. Cancel the movement and restart it as needed. Until the heavy equipment is landed, the enemy infantry is vulnerable and any Japanese tanks won't be that good. Your Armored units might get wrecked but then your dug-in infantry will have a weaker force attacking them.



Lokasenna -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (6/12/2016 7:59:48 PM)

Attack bombers at those settings will drop to "low level", which will use strafing skill. Just FYI. May as well set them to 100 feet.



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