Mktours(Ger)VsSaper222(sov)---AAR cancelled (Full Version)

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mktours -> Mktours(Ger)VsSaper222(sov)---AAR cancelled (7/1/2015 1:14:06 PM)

Since other players are interested in this game, I will do a brief AAR to share the opening and what happen in 1941.
Game setting:
(1)1941-1945 full campaign (I would do a probably much better opening than normal Lvov, so full Campaign give Soviet side more strategy space)
(2)Full FOW
(3)Lock HQ support
(4) Non-random Weather
(5) Regular Blizzard
(6) Soviet player bonus: attack+1
Saper set soviet transport level at 50%. It turns out that it might be too harsh for soviet side, but we didn’t know that before we started the game.
House rules:
(1)No Paratrooper dropping
(2)Ground unit bombing could only be made against hexes which are to be ground attacked in the current turn. In other words, if a hex would not be ground attacked in that turn, then it should not be Ground unit bombed
(3)No bombing on HQs. There is only one situation that a hex containing a HQ could be bombed: the HQ is stacking with a ground unit and the unit is to be ground-attacked in the same turn.
(4)No airfield bombing after T1.
(5)No more than 3 bombing at each city & port per turn.
(6)Airbases (including German army airbase) could only move at the end of each turn, after all air missions have been finished.
(7)Airbase could not enter newly conquer & converted hexes in the current turn. It could only enter those hexes which are already under friendly controlled at the start of one’s turn. If a pocket has been open in the turn, then the airbase could move into the pocket that turn.
(8)Air drop must be made to at least 1 hex away from the staging airbase.
(9)After a unit received air-drop supply & fuel, it must stop moving that turn.
(10)HQ build up must be made within 20 Mp range of rail head, and the HQ must not move in the whole turn.
(11)No more than 3 ground unit bombing against one hex per turn
(12)No more than 5 ground attacks against one hex per turn
(13)No naval invasions before November 1941, none outside the 1939 Soviet borders before January 1943; in addition if Sevastopol is either isolated, or in German hands, none west of the Crimea.
(14)No soviet bombing Polesti before 1943.



Callistrid -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsSaper222(sov) (7/1/2015 1:18:41 PM)

That will be an interesting AAR. I'm damn curious about what you cooked in your mind :)

Thanks Mktours.



mktours -> T1north (7/1/2015 1:20:23 PM)

I made some improvement from the opening against Marquo.
In the north, I chose to postpone the Minsk pocket for 1 turn.
People could check themselves to see that it is much better to postpone it for 1 turn. It will pocket more men and weapons.

[image]local://upfiles/44785/6248A5CFCF2740D9A3145FCBC3BB67BF.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsSaper222(sov) (7/1/2015 1:26:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

That will be an interesting AAR. I'm damn curious about what you cooked in your mind :)

Thanks Mktours.

I enjoyed reading your AARs too. Thanks for being interested in this game.



mktours -> Minsk (7/1/2015 1:29:16 PM)

I captured Minsk in T1.

[image]local://upfiles/44785/3C564921071A4D98BDBBC5C73941B56D.jpg[/image]



mktours -> T1 south (7/1/2015 1:31:25 PM)

In the south, there is also some improvement.

[image]local://upfiles/44785/49245559E8A1473880B09C45DFA3FE8B.jpg[/image]



Callistrid -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 1:36:19 PM)

What's the missing point? Why you allowed all major pockets open?
You will play the huge southern encirclement again? If yes, will be another correction in 1.08.05. :)



Northern Star -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 1:36:44 PM)

double post



mktours -> Lvov (7/1/2015 1:36:44 PM)

Instead of creating the pocket in T1, I think that it might be better to just lock the rail and postpone the pocket for 1 turn.
With the 1:1=2:1 rule, the Pz division needs to go the rough hex to be safe.

[image]local://upfiles/44785/B3EB2584F5FA4F18B9BF3E7F5D83B0AF.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 1:39:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

What's the missing point? Why you allowed all major pockets open?
You will play the huge southern encirclement again? If yes, will be another correction in 1.08.05. :)


They can't escape in T2. You will see what happen in T2.



Northern Star -> RE: Lvov (7/1/2015 1:40:09 PM)

I see many routed units outside the pockets... are you really sure it is a good idea?
I have some doubts...



mktours -> RE: Lvov (7/1/2015 1:43:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

I see many routed units outside the pockets... are you really sure it is a good idea?
I have some doubts...

The routed units will not escape, they are pocketed in T2.



Callistrid -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 1:47:39 PM)

In sappers side, on south he must run back to the rivers, protect Kiev, with strong troops, and allow you to drive deeply in Ukraine. If you will play the Bessarabia pocket, he will won 1-2 turn slowing your FBD building process. My experience as soviet on southern front the FBD line is the most critical strategical factor. That rail line determine the soviet defense strategy, and every turn, when he can slow the building process, he save in industrial area.

I belive, when the 1.08.05 will arrive, the soviets will gladly sacrifice all his southern front, if he can hold 1-2 turn in Bessarabia.



mktours -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 1:59:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

In sappers side, on south he must run back to the rivers, protect Kiev, with strong troops, and allow you to drive deeply in Ukraine. If you will play the Bessarabia pocket, he will won 1-2 turn slowing your FBD building process. My experience as soviet on southern front the FBD line is the most critical strategical factor. That rail line determine the soviet defense strategy, and every turn, when he can slow the building process, he save in industrial area.

I belive, when the 1.08.05 will arrive, the soviets will gladly sacrifice all his southern front, if he can hold 1-2 turn in Bessarabia.

I have given the recommendation of how to defend this opening in my old AAR:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3381109&mpage=1&key=�

" Perhaps the better way to defend this opening is to guard Kiev and the east bank of the river properly."



Northern Star -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 2:05:53 PM)

But all the units (especially in south east of the pocket and in Pripyat marshes are still free to move by rail... did you pocket also all these units?



Callistrid -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 2:07:39 PM)

I never understand why try the other players defend the western part of ukraine. Around the dnieper, the rough terrain slow any german tryout for one turn, and the extra 1-2 turn, when the german panzer spearhead reach the river could be useful to refit the starting troops, build fortifications, and attach sapper regiments to the HQ-s. In 1.08.03. disbanding some early corps gives an easy choice organise the Southwestern + southern front troops. The german can't cross the river on T02-04 in that way. In maintime, units could start build frontline around kharkov, using the population building boost.

And of course defend Odessa with all cost.



mktours -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 2:09:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

But all the units (especially in south and in Pripyat marshes are still free to move by rail... did you pocket also all these units?

In the south, rail had been locked by the PzD in the rough hex.
I want to see people's comments on T1 before posting the T2, so it will be later.



timmyab -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsSaper222(sov) (7/1/2015 2:28:37 PM)

I think it's fine to leave the Lvov open for one turn and push East as fast as possible. I don't think there's much to choose between that and closing the pocket on turn one. I've done both and there's pros and cons to each.
Not closing the Minsk pocket on turn one will cost 9th and 4th army some time (half a turn ish). Personally I'd rather send one or two of 24th pz corps divisions towards Minsk to seal it.



Callistrid -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsSaper222(sov) (7/1/2015 2:36:24 PM)

Not closing, and prevent the infantry division movement, will slow the center attack. With +1 soviet bonus, the german panzers can operate just with the infantry divisions, or they will be beated.



mktours -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 2:48:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

I never understand why try the other players defend the western part of ukraine. Around the dnieper, the rough terrain slow any german tryout for one turn, and the extra 1-2 turn, when the german panzer spearhead reach the river could be useful to refit the starting troops, build fortifications, and attach sapper regiments to the HQ-s. In 1.08.03. disbanding some early corps gives an easy choice organise the Southwestern + southern front troops. The german can't cross the river on T02-04 in that way. In maintime, units could start build frontline around kharkov, using the population building boost.

And of course defend Odessa with all cost.

The power of this opening is that Soviet will be short of troops in T1 to react, Germany pin down much more troops than normal Lvov. So it is not easy to defend everything. Soviet side must make priority and sacrifice.



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsSaper222(sov) (7/1/2015 2:51:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I think it's fine to leave the Lvov open for one turn and push East as fast as possible. I don't think there's much to choose between that and closing the pocket on turn one. I've done both and there's pros and cons to each.
Not closing the Minsk pocket on turn one will cost 9th and 4th army some time (half a turn ish). Personally I'd rather send one or two of 24th pz corps divisions towards Minsk to seal it.

I could seal the Minsk pocket, but I think that it is much better to postpone it for one turn. You could check to see.
In the south, it is much better to postpone the pocket for one more turn too, easy to check.
As for the speed of infantry, that is not the issue, we will see in T2.



Callistrid -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 2:53:12 PM)

Sending 3 usefull soviet division to Odessa is not a hard task. The city need to be defended, because it's a major port, plus works as supply source. If Odessa fall, the german supply efforts will be much more easier on south.



MattFL -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 3:37:38 PM)

The GHC can practice and perfect an opening and this one looks devastating. There are a lot of high CV units that have been routed out of there in the south so it seems that a lot must go right to achieve this or it's been well rehearsed to the point of maximizing odds. The LVOV pocket, while technically not sealed, is sealed for all purposes plus GHC has penetrated deeply and locked up many other units. Overall, he is putting SHC to difficult decisions because normally all units not assigned to any front rush north and in this case, it will be very tempting for SHC to not send those units north, but to try to stabilize the south. I think SHC should resist this temptation and play a normal northern defense and accept the fact that the South is screwed for awhile. Half measures will just result in major defeats in both north and south, so if I'm SHC I play my normal northern defense and accept a **** situation in the south where there is a lot more ground to give up.

In the north, it's T2 that will matter most, so won't really comment much other than taking Minsk Turn 1 is of course nice. Open or closed pocket is irrelevant, they're all dead anyway. Further, GHC should rush everything east and leave behind as little as possible to clean up the eventual pocket over several turns.

Where I'm most curious to see this game is after the first turns. How will SHC react and, more importantly, when GHC is not acting from a script any longer, will we see play this brutally efficient. Further, with the +1 and Normal Blizzard it seems GHC is banking on winning the game before these ever come into play (or being so far ahead that they can absorb it). So the SHC needs to survive long enough to be able to use these assets.

Thanks MKTOURS for doing the AAR, for me this is going to be reaaaaaaalllyyy interesting to watch.




MattFL -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsSaper222(sov)---Saper is welcome (7/1/2015 4:18:43 PM)



quote:

Saper set soviet transport level at 50%. It turns out that it might be too harsh for soviet side, but we didn’t know that before we started the game.


I just noticed this rule. To me, this is way too harsh and given how fast you're going to be pressing east in the Industrial south he'll never get enough industry out. As SHC I would give up +1, long before I would give up rail capacity. Further, it's going to make an already difficult SHC T1 and T2 that much more difficult.




HITMAN202 -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 4:24:11 PM)

I would, at first glance, argue that you're making too many errors, excessive routs, not closing the AGC and AGS pockets, but I do see your points and can't disagree with your reasoning, particularly the impact of Soviet +1 attack. I like the lanes you created your infantry's path across the Daugava, and the penetration in AGS almost to Vinnitsa. But I think AGC can be closed with maximum isolation and the units routed to the swamp will escape. But not bad, in fact best against attack +1. I'm impressed.



Callistrid -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsSaper222(sov)---Saper is welcome (7/1/2015 4:30:09 PM)

With 50 % rail capacity, the soviet has no chance to evacuate Kharkov, and D-town before T05-06.
Against Pitaman, was real hard to decide on the early 3-5 turn to move troops, or evacuate industrial factories.
And sometimes I needed to disband mot/arm troops, don't allow them be encircled, or they where to far from the frontline, and need two turn transporting them, using the critical transport capacity. As I remember, 7 mot/arm division was disbanded by lack of capacity.



HITMAN202 -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 4:41:26 PM)

Soviet transport level at 50% ?? Tough, but it's Sapper. He'll win. Any bets ???

But I am pulling for mktours. (what in the world does mattp stand for ???)



Callistrid -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 4:43:40 PM)

HITIMAN, I'm not really care about the results. +1 attack, and severe winter... Sappen need only to save his army, and beat the german during the blizzard turn.
Blizzard with +1 attack... Brrr...



HITMAN202 -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 4:47:07 PM)

Sapper with normal blizzard and +1 attack ??? It would like be giving the M-1 rifle to Napoleon. We would all be speaking French.



MattFL -> RE: T1 south (7/1/2015 4:54:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Sapper with normal blizzard and +1 attack ??? It would like be giving the M-1 rifle to Napoleon. We would all be speaking French.



If SHC gets no industry out and takes massive losses between now and blizzard, +1 won't matter, severe blizzard won't matter. He needs to survive until then. As I said before when discussing this, I don't think you can win the game on Turn 1 or Turn 2, but you can sure set yourself up for a massive push that will set the SHC back immensely.

Further, the units in the swamp aren't going to escape I don't think unless they rally immediately. They move too slow in the swamp and GHC will be at Kiev turn 2, cutting them off at the east end of the swamp will be no problem for him.

My prediction is that no one wins and they restart the game with normal rail capacity. MKTours is clever because he offers +1 and Norm Blizzard in exchange for (suggested) decreased capacity. He is giving up the future to ensure success in the opening which is when the rail capacity matters most. [;)] So I think he may give up these things hoping that they'll never matter. We'll see.

As for mattp, I'm clearly not as clever as all of you and just used my name. [:'(]



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