RE: Manila Falls (Full Version)

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Olorin -> RE: Manila Falls (5/5/2016 8:31:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav

3) While not needing a large army to suppress China is great, you only have so many PPs. With the HR to purchase restricted units, it takes a long time to buy out those units.



Interesting.

I always assumed that if Japan managed to conquer China, then the Chinese Expeditionary Army would no longer be morally bound to stay in China. What would have happened in real life? Japan would redeploy most of their divisions in Russia or India.

I would discuss this with Jocke of course, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to use the released divisions in mainland SE Asia without paying PPs.





Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/5/2016 8:38:36 PM)

Knowing Jocke, I am pretty sure he wouldn't be happy with farming those guys twice.

I have two other pockets: one of 2 units and one of 4 Chinese units (well it was 5 but one starved to death).

I am destroying the pocket with two units. Jocke moved into a base, cutting the road supply. I closed his entry hex, and really need to destroy those two Chinese units to clear the road to improve the supply routes.

The other 4 unit pocket is in the middle of lots of roads, so there is no pressing need to kill them off.

I have only wiped out a few Chinese units so far...including the two decent Corp in the Chungking plains (because they fought so well).

Wiping out the Chinese units has not been part of my strategy for China. Two broad pincers meeting at the Central plains and the conquest of Chungking and Chengtu are the primary goals. My first goal on taking over the game was isolating the eastern half of the Chinese Army (Ankang and east), Kunming to Paoshan are the secondary goals.

Everything else will be cleanup with restricted units while those few free units relocate elsewhere.





Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/5/2016 8:45:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin


I always assumed that if Japan managed to conquer China, then the Chinese Expeditionary Army would no longer be morally bound to stay in China. What would have happened in real life? Japan would redeploy most of their divisions in Russia or India.

I would discuss this with Jocke of course, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to use the released divisions in mainland SE Asia without paying PPs.



I don't have a problem with paying PP to free up the units in the CEA. For one thing, they make for a great reserve for when the war reaches China.

Also, I never did much of this before, but switching some Island base to CEA on Formosa/Hainan would let you fly in some of the wonderful air mobile infantry without paying a ton of PPs to free up.




Andav -> RE: Manila Falls (5/5/2016 8:45:39 PM)

quote:

I always assumed that if Japan managed to conquer China, then the Chinese Expeditionary Army would no longer be morally bound to stay in China. What would have happenede in real life? Japan would redeploy most of their divisions in Russia or India.

I would discuss this with Jocke of course, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to use the released divisions in mainland SE Asia without paying PPs.


Agreed, I would have marched into Burma/India or sent them over to the Russian front with no issues. I would have asked for clarification on Burma but I do not think witpqs would have objected. Putting them on a ship and sending then to the Philippines or Truk or the Marianas would have required PPs I think.

Restricted units purchase is pretty much the only HR we have. The game has been just fine without HRs.

Wa



witpqs -> RE: Manila Falls (5/5/2016 10:17:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav

quote:

I always assumed that if Japan managed to conquer China, then the Chinese Expeditionary Army would no longer be morally bound to stay in China. What would have happenede in real life? Japan would redeploy most of their divisions in Russia or India.

I would discuss this with Jocke of course, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to use the released divisions in mainland SE Asia without paying PPs.


Agreed, I would have marched into Burma/India or sent them over to the Russian front with no issues. I would have asked for clarification on Burma but I do not think witpqs would have objected. Putting them on a ship and sending then to the Philippines or Truk or the Marianas would have required PPs I think.

Restricted units purchase is pretty much the only HR we have. The game has been just fine without HRs.

Wa


+1



obvert -> RE: Manila Falls (5/5/2016 10:33:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav

3) While not needing a large army to suppress China is great, you only have so many PPs. With the HR to purchase restricted units, it takes a long time to buy out those units.



Interesting.

I always assumed that if Japan managed to conquer China, then the Chinese Expeditionary Army would no longer be morally bound to stay in China. What would have happened in real life? Japan would redeploy most of their divisions in Russia or India.

I would discuss this with Jocke of course, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to use the released divisions in mainland SE Asia without paying PPs.



This would have to be explicit from the beginning. Otherwise if there is an HR for borders the Allies can't send the Chinese to Burma and India and Russia and Indochina.

In my game Torsten asked for a "safe" central plains zone of the four bases there until 1/44 if China were over-run. He decided not to take it and then asked to allow the Chinese to go to India to re-suppply and fill out once China was done other than Paoshan. I declined since we didn't have this rule from teh beginning and of course I couldn't have used [R] IJA troops in Burma in his proposition.

None of this can be assumed if you're using HRs for borders at all.



witpqs -> RE: Manila Falls (5/5/2016 10:46:59 PM)

We did explicitly do "within 3 hexes of the border" as a theory of active defense. Turned out (for me) to be more trouble to keep track of units doing that. Other than that (3 hexes), Chinese Army units which went into Burma and beyond were the ones bought out. The permanently restricted ones didn't (won't).

I suppose under that HR IJA units restricted to China would not, strictly speaking, be available to flood into Burma, etc. without PP, but if all of China had fallen, Andav is correct, I would not have objected.



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 1:13:24 AM)

Turn is done, and I turned off all naval attacks since Jocke saw all my bombers in the Bay of Bengal area.

Instead I am LRCAP Chittagong with 300 fresh fighters.

Jocke has been sweeping and bombing for three consecutive days...so I hope to lay into his fighters and bombers with fresh planes.

Lets see how it works.

Watch him pull the trigger and do really move forward...but I think since he has recon, and seen my plane strength he will be cautious. Plus, he still has mines to clear before he can make a good run.

Another deliberate attack on the road block near Kienko in China. If this attack doesn't force the Chinese out, then I will have to move in fresh troops and remove the tired guys.




Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 1:18:32 AM)

These last few posts illustrate why I don't like using the PPs to cross borders thing. The biggest thing is it allows Japan to knock out China a bit earlier, but it also has implications for the Allied player - not just early, but also later in the war as your army marches from India into SE Asia. "Oops, we hit a thick yellow line, gotta spend some PPs."

I'd also like to point out that using so much on China does not have to limit your defenses elsewhere. In some cases my defense has been poor due to not enough LCUs, but it wasn't because they weren't available due to still being in China.



witpqs -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 2:31:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

These last few posts illustrate why I don't like using the PPs to cross borders thing. The biggest thing is it allows Japan to knock out China a bit earlier, but it also has implications for the Allied player - not just early, but also later in the war as your army marches from India into SE Asia. "Oops, we hit a thick yellow line, gotta spend some PPs."

I'd also like to point out that using so much on China does not have to limit your defenses elsewhere. In some cases my defense has been poor due to not enough LCUs, but it wasn't because they weren't available due to still being in China.

PPs had to be spent on the Manchuco garrison.



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 12:00:27 PM)

2nd Week of Dec, 1942

More no moonlight Iboat successes...sinking sounds heard.

[image]local://upfiles/44178/E1F58383013A46A9A0142E2A4DE309A7.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 12:02:39 PM)

Over here, I sent an empty AK to merge with a convoy...she only had to go one more hex, but no there is a sub there.

Captain Fraser must have sent a dozen torpedoes our way, but we dodge each one and then in the surface fight hits us 4 times with a 3 inch gun, but we respond with an 8cm hit and beat off the submarine.

Jocke will be truly upset.[X(]

[image]local://upfiles/44178/7C1E5A04A27E4F3E808FB91F89DEA894.jpg[/image]

Interestingly enough it is an AK-t. I wonder if it is easier to hit a ship that is loaded as opposed to empty?



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 12:06:27 PM)

I don't know where the Allied sweeps went, but I won't complain. Actually, I do have an idea. A working hypothesis.



[image]local://upfiles/44178/EE48FCE5E28441EFBB659E5C3808055B.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 12:16:58 PM)

Not a huge setback in his bombing campaign, but I like the loss ratio very much.

My planes were set to intercept fighters, not bombers.

[image]local://upfiles/44178/FB3DDFA580C847CD8F351CED478E2191.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 1:00:25 PM)

According to tracker, I dropped a dozen Blenheims, and 34 total Allied planes for the day -- not the 28 listed to the right of the game report.

British bombers are in general so much weaker defensively than their American counterparts. Makes me think there are other uses for them. I have several ideas, but who knows when I will ever play the Allied side.



tiemanjw -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 1:05:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

Why destroy the Chinese corps' east of Sian?

They will reappear at Chungking with 1/2 TOE in a few months. I'd let them wither on the vine and only destroy them after Chungking falls, they are pretty much irrelevant now.


Kill them twice and get more points?


----ignore---- perhaps I should read more than the first post of the day before I respond.



ny59giants -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 1:28:33 PM)

quote:

I have several ideas, but who knows when I will ever play the Allied side.


If my dance card was not already full, I might ask you for a game with me as Japan. I'm getting ready to start a new game as Japan. Its been some time, but there is too much about playing Japan that I've forgotten. A sign of advanced age or having too still work for a living. [:D]



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 1:58:51 PM)

What does 4 3" hits do to an AK? Answer, not much.[;)]

Night experience really skyrocketed.

[image]local://upfiles/44178/EA5241623784406AAAED12B953C7280A.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 2:09:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

I have several ideas, but who knows when I will ever play the Allied side.


If my dance card was not already full, [:D]


You and me both![:D]





Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 2:13:44 PM)

AVP.

[image]local://upfiles/44178/51D720D6D44B45A3816854A70B0D1E6F.jpg[/image]



Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 3:34:17 PM)

Those AKs are pretty solid. Faster, harder to hit than your standard xAKs.



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 3:41:52 PM)

Turn is away, and I am kind of resting in Burma/India theater. Continuing my gradual pull back from India and into Burma.

For the first time Rangoon is reconned by the Allies and they see several hundred planes, Cruisers, Light Cruisers, oh my!

I wonder if Jocke is adding up the air strength I have here? I am moving it around a fair bit, so it might seem even greater than he thinks.

Soon additional airbase will be hitting size 2: Prome, Bass.., Tuongo, etc, etc. These size two runways are important for my Lilly divebombers to work from.

I am attacking at Chengtu, and I think there is a 50-50 chance of taking the base. I am shocking with the armor & deliberate attacking with the infantry. Hopefully there is clear weather for the bombing runs.

At the Kienko roadblock our attack is repulsed again with equal losses, but 2 out of 3 Chinese corps are almost at 0 AV. I will rotate troops and try again in 4 days supply willing. Once this roadblock falls the assault on Chungking really begins.




Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 5:21:42 PM)

You've converted me to OneNote. I checked it out for non-WITP purposes a while back based on your recommendation. I'm starting a new Japan game and I've decided that I need to use it to keep all of my plans straight, since everything is so scattered at game's start.


What are your transport aircraft doing? Got any around China? You can use that to help keep your guys in the woods in supply for attacks maybe a day earlier than you would otherwise be able to do so...



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 5:26:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You've converted me to OneNote. I checked it out for non-WITP purposes a while back based on your recommendation. I'm starting a new Japan game and I've decided that I need to use it to keep all of my plans straight, since everything is so scattered at game's start.


What are your transport aircraft doing? Got any around China? You can use that to help keep your guys in the woods in supply for attacks maybe a day earlier than you would otherwise be able to do so...


Who are you playing?

Man, I love onenote. It would be far more tedious to keep notes some other way, and it is so easy to add pictures and annotate. The tab system to create folders is very handy.

Every one of my transports is flying. Troops back from the Ledo area; in China they fly aviation support and engineers forward. All patrols are resting and repairing for the upcoming West Coast op.



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 6:12:42 PM)

2nd Week of December

One more big city to take...

[image]local://upfiles/44178/1B836BDCF0FB436FBC1A249A5336A229.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 6:14:11 PM)

Losses very moderate for Japan.[:)]

[image]local://upfiles/44178/3B93A8E7E85444BEA5B3E382E25BD8AF.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 6:18:18 PM)

In pretty good shape.[:)]

[image]local://upfiles/44178/B4FA601EE1C548D8B61E573AC6AE6128.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 6:45:23 PM)

I would be interested in reading Jocke's AAR on the defense of China.

I can remember urging him, I think, to try some different things there, but if memory serves Jocke has been very defeatist about China.

I am amazed I was able to take Chengtu with only two attacks.

I am amazed at all the ripe areas to be defended that weren't ... or minimally.

I think when I "snowballed" down the Ankang road that really took a lot out of the Allies. But when defending with SL, you simply can't stack a deep defense with all the troops that can fit. You have to plan the retreat...and I don't think the Allies did that.

Now the question is how much do I race to take Kunming to Burma. I am thinking the Tanks are going to that way while the artillery and infantry get bogged down at Chungking. I would like to clear the road to Burma now, while Ledo is in my hands. I have been prepping and moving troops that way for a while, but everything takes longer in China than you think.

Anyhow, it is a good day with the capture of Chengtu!




SqzMyLemon -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 6:57:56 PM)

My experience playing Jocke with SL in China was the road to Kunming was the hardest. The low stacking limits here really favour the Chinese. As the Japanese, you are limited to one, maybe two divisions at best and all the armour and artillery you can provide. The 20-25k SL hexes in 3x defensive terrain with forts are the tough nuts to crack. At least in my experience.



Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (5/6/2016 7:05:15 PM)

I am not sure that China can beat off the Japanese in this scenario 2 style mod. But allocating the Tank Divisions to China means they aren't in India or Australia.

The Guards Tank Division is the only reinforcement I shipped to China since taking the game over from Olorin.

This unit spawns I think at Cam Ranh Bay, and at the time I sent it to Canton and it drove north. Pretty much unstoppable, especially when it was paired up (very briefly) with the 1st or 2nd Tank division.

The Guards Tank will now go to Kunming, which I didn't really think thru otherwise the prep would be different. I will try to grab those three key towns with a very tank heavy force and then they will have the choice of back to China cleanup or defense against the Allied horde in Burma.

[image]local://upfiles/44178/CFBE70F4A99040B1B7E74B2A7C02F80C.jpg[/image]



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