RE: WitE 2 (Full Version)

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ericv -> RE: WitE 2 (3/22/2016 11:02:30 AM)

Playing against the AI, I am always pushing the limits of the game. at least as the soviets. Could I volunteer for Alpha testing?



RedLancer -> RE: WitE 2 (3/22/2016 11:42:49 AM)

PM Sent



robinsa -> RE: WitE 2 (3/22/2016 8:09:40 PM)

I think Pelton should be allowed into the beta test (if he isnt already). I know he can be obnoxious and I used to get upset when I read his posts but fact is that few appear to be as passionate about the game and eager to improve it as he is. I think most of the stuff he writes isnt meant to be offensive it just comes across that way. Having him play the game early and give his feedback would improve the game in the long run. Just my 5 cents. ;)



RedLancer -> RE: WitE 2 (3/22/2016 11:32:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Well IMO the game has always given the Soviets way too much latitude in C&C for the first few months. The Lvov opening compensated for that in a way. If you are now going to give all those Soviet troops back, then I trust, surely the devs have devised some way to give the Axis some other advantages. Just some ideas from other games I have played in no particular order:

Whenever a Soviet unit is selected to move and then moved there is a C&C check done, maybe the unit won't move at all, maybe it will go all the way, maybe some where in between.

The Soviet's are forced to attack with non isolated units (Ordered by Stalin) failure to do so incurs some penalty.

A random chance applied to all units that they will just 'freeze' for the turn.

Anyone who has read even an ounce of material on the early days knows these kind of things are simply not reflected in the game and they should be. It needs to happen.




Perceived bias is always a emotive topic.

Your suggestions are well made but should we not, for balance, code for the German failure in 1941 to follow the first principle of war - the selection and maintenance of the aim? How far should the player be tied to history?

The Lvov Pocket is an excellent case study. On the one hand attempting it should be allowed as historically it ought to be possible, on the other its success shouldn't trigger unfreeze code that is ahistoric. Should it be a prerequisite in balancing 1941?




Peltonx -> RE: WitE 2 (3/22/2016 11:36:27 PM)

I could show them the HQ bug, from 1.0

but

RL is RL

I know 2.0 is not WitW

But you still can't find the HQ bug or the fuel Bug WitW.

Yes 2.0 is so different or is it?

MT you alrdy know the answer to the question, but u never paid the cash for WitW.

Sapper already knows :), guessing TDV and Clown boy already know [sm=00000436.gif]

Think MT think [&o]

Your a good teacher, but a poor student unlike some.

Yup the all seeing eye is seeing [8D] and has been for over 17 months.

They will not get the 17 months[>:]






Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (3/22/2016 11:58:08 PM)

The problem ultimately is time scale. The increments (one week) are too long. 4 days would make a much better game.

But WITE 2.0 is really going to be WITE 1.5

If I were designing WITE 2.0

Map scale 10Km per hex, 4 day turns, and take out a lot of unnecessary micro management. This would compensate for the extra turns, more of them but shortened due to less MM.




Peltonx -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 12:05:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The problem ultimately is time scale. The increments (one week) are too long. 4 days would make a much better game.

But WITE 2.0 is really going to be WITE 1.5

If I were designing WITE 2.0

Map scale 10Km per hex, 4 day turns, and take out a lot of unnecessary micro management. This would compensate for the extra turns, more of them but shortened due to less MM.




Your right about some things [sm=00000947.gif]

See u in a week or so



uw06670 -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 12:54:12 AM)

FOW?

I haven't played WitW, so perhaps some of this is no longer relevant

Playing the soviets for the first significant amount of time I notice two bits of Information that give opponents too much intel (IMO): (this with full FOW on)

1) I find it awesome (I mean too powerful) that I can inspect the Axis rail network hex by hex and see the exact status of it. Just knowing if it was damaged or working would be a lot of knowledge, but I can see the exact % of repair. And this without so much as air recon or any units within 100km. Seems like air recon could detect if trains are running or not, but I think you should have to conduct a mission on the hex/area first.

2) Soviet Factories (well anyone's factories). I can understand Axis knowing the disposition of factories in June 1941, that is information that could be gathered over time ahead of time. But once the factory relocates, should they be able to see that its missing from a city 100s of km away? And also see that it was added to a city 1,000km away? I don't really think so. If you flew air recon you might be able to notice that not many tanks are rolling out of that factory anymore, but down to the number of armament factories in existence after T1 in each location seems implausible.

Just some observations/opinions and hope for something more subtle in WitE 2.0



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 2:37:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: uw06670

FOW?

I haven't played WitW, so perhaps some of this is no longer relevant

Playing the soviets for the first significant amount of time I notice two bits of Information that give opponents too much intel (IMO): (this with full FOW on)

1) I find it awesome (I mean too powerful) that I can inspect the Axis rail network hex by hex and see the exact status of it. Just knowing if it was damaged or working would be a lot of knowledge, but I can see the exact % of repair. And this without so much as air recon or any units within 100km. Seems like air recon could detect if trains are running or not, but I think you should have to conduct a mission on the hex/area first.

2) Soviet Factories (well anyone's factories). I can understand Axis knowing the disposition of factories in June 1941, that is information that could be gathered over time ahead of time. But once the factory relocates, should they be able to see that its missing from a city 100s of km away? And also see that it was added to a city 1,000km away? I don't really think so. If you flew air recon you might be able to notice that not many tanks are rolling out of that factory anymore, but down to the number of armament factories in existence after T1 in each location seems implausible.

Just some observations/opinions and hope for something more subtle in WitE 2.0


Not to mention exact strength of the enemy army.



Aurelian -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 4:07:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Well IMO the game has always given the Soviets way too much latitude in C&C for the first few months. The Lvov opening compensated for that in a way. If you are now going to give all those Soviet troops back, then I trust, surely the devs have devised some way to give the Axis some other advantages. Just some ideas from other games I have played in no particular order:

Whenever a Soviet unit is selected to move and then moved there is a C&C check done, maybe the unit won't move at all, maybe it will go all the way, maybe some where in between.

The Soviet's are forced to attack with non isolated units (Ordered by Stalin) failure to do so incurs some penalty.

A random chance applied to all units that they will just 'freeze' for the turn.

Anyone who has read even an ounce of material on the early days knows these kind of things are simply not reflected in the game and they should be. It needs to happen.




Perceived bias is always a emotive topic.

Your suggestions are well made but should we not, for balance, code for the German failure in 1941 to follow the first principle of war - the selection and maintenance of the aim? How far should the player be tied to history?

The Lvov Pocket is an excellent case study. On the one hand attempting it should be allowed as historically it ought to be possible, on the other its success shouldn't trigger unfreeze code that is ahistoric. Should it be a prerequisite in balancing 1941?




So then why not force the Axis to follow Hitler's orders? Never see Axis players demanding that they follow his orders. (Like not taking Leningrad. Or no retreating during the first winter to name just two.) But they sure like throwing Stalin's orders in the mix



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 4:53:47 AM)

You obviously can't read or have a very short memory as I am all about the game having more influence from the dictators. Always have been.



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 5:10:47 AM)

An example of one of my many posts on the subject

quote:

People seem to forget that without said lunatics (Hitler and Stalin) there would be no war in the first place. We must have rules to reflect the political realities in a game of this scale. Indeed there should be more. Certainly concerning the Soviet running in 1941. Stalin simply would not tolerate any Commander doing that. Same for Germans running to Poland in the winter of 1941.

If a player wants to take on the role as dictator of Germany in WWII then WITE is not the platform for it. Read the bi-line for the game, you, the player is not Hitler or Stalin. You represent the High Command. You take your orders from Hitler or Stalin. Hitler wants a short war. So there you are.

If you want to be Hitler you need to play some WWII strategic level game where you can do pretty much as you please with your available resources. There are quite a few around I might add.


You can find the thread here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3308081&mpage=1&key=hitler%2Cstalin�



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 5:13:59 AM)

You even made a couple of posts in that thread, you even quoted me. Give me a break, go pedal your trolling somewhere else.



morvael -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 8:02:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Map scale 10Km per hex, 4 day turns, and take out a lot of unnecessary micro management. This would compensate for the extra turns, more of them but shortened due to less MM.



Interesting, that it the scale I have chosen for my non-existent WW2 WeGo game. [:)]



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 8:09:17 AM)

Excellent news morvael, bring it on [:)]



morvael -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 9:01:14 AM)

For now it looks like it will take 35 years, 30 to reach retirement age, and then 5 for development...



zakblood -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 9:06:45 AM)

so a short term plan then[:D]

i retired 16 years ago, i made plans then to finish some games, 16 years later, that still on hold tbh, one day, just not today it seems, or this year[X(][;)]

WITE2, won't be that long in planning and design and development, not 5 years anyway [&o]



morvael -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 9:28:00 AM)

You don't have to tell me how precious and scarce free time is [:)] I have 200+ games in my Steam library, and some external ones. I haven't even played for 5 minutes some of those, bought as early as 2010. I have 30+ boardgames, and some were not played yet as well, like 1914 Twilight in the East, which I would love to play, but don't have time to do so. Then there are miniature tabletop games... Life sucks.



zakblood -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 9:45:42 AM)

being retired doesn't give any more free time either tbh, as everyone else including yourself will fill in the time with other stuff, this is the way of the world, add in women, and your doomed, we all are doomed, i've played more on WITE2 and WITW in alpha / beta than i have in the released version of WITE which i've had since start on day one[X(]



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 9:50:24 AM)

In 30 years there won't be hexes. The map will be discrete pixels, maybe 1 meter. Units will cover an appropriate area of pixels. Stretched to the length and depth of the national doctrine of the period for the unit size. That's just the beginning.

Maybe WITE 4.0 be like that....



morvael -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 9:57:13 AM)

Yeah, women, family, that sort of things that gets into the way all the time. Meh

Yes, and you will be able to zoom in a'la Google Maps and see individual tanks and soldiers duking it out on the battlefield or zoom out end see entire globe with illumination from exploding nukes. And every officer involved will be handled by self-conscious AI. [:)]
...but as there are fans of pixel art now (myself being one of them) I guess there will be fans of hex wargames by then.




morvael -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 10:14:12 AM)

Maybe I could start this project earlier, but that would require stopping the work on WitE 1.0, as it is eating 80% of my free time (and 20% of my sleep time). I hope WitE 2.0 launch and player migration to the new title will allow for that without regrets.



Manstein63 -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 10:35:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

In 30 years there won't be hexes. The map will be discrete pixels, maybe 1 meter. Units will cover an appropriate area of pixels. Stretched to the length and depth of the national doctrine of the period for the unit size. That's just the beginning.

Maybe WITE 4.0 be like that....


In 30 years time you could have a totally immersive VR game where you could actually play the part of Hitler, Stalin, or the western leaders if it's a War in Europe game or you could be one of the army group leaders or an army, corp, divisional, regimental commander you could even be an individual soldier fighting on the eastern or western fronts.
Manstein63



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 11:02:24 AM)

quote:

but that would require stopping the work on WitE 1.0


It must come to an end at some point....

Will the HQ teleport bug ever be caught and squashed?



morvael -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 11:20:42 AM)

Unfortunately no. So far no saves were provided... I need to replicate this, because otherwise it's looking for a needle in a haystack.
If you know that it happens after some date quite reliably we could setup a server game and push the turns until we reach that point. Would that be enough?



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 12:19:00 PM)

I don't think it's date related, rather truck related in poor weather. You could perhaps start a AI v AI in 1942. Let it play thru till early 43, pause the game and remove half the Soviet trucks (is that possible?). Then resume AI v AI turn by turn and see if anything odd happens with HQ's.



morvael -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 12:23:19 PM)

The problem is it doesn't happen for PBEM games, only for server games. And I can expect AI to move HQs every turn in AIvAI games, so it would have to be a server game. Problem is I don't have two logins for server games (unless Steam version counts as separate from regular version), so I need a partner.



Manstein63 -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 12:47:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

The problem is it doesn't happen for PBEM games, only for server games. And I can expect AI to move HQs every turn in AIvAI games, so it would have to be a server game. Problem is I don't have two logins for server games (unless Steam version counts as separate from regular version), so I need a partner.


What would be entailed, I don't get much time for gaming but for a noble cause such as this I may be able to find some extra time.
Manstein63



timmyab -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 1:03:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
If I were designing WITE 2.0

Map scale 10Km per hex, 4 day turns, and take out a lot of unnecessary micro management. This would compensate for the extra turns, more of them but shortened due to less MM.

I've long come to the conclusion that half weekly turns are the way to go. This does lead to the problem though that full campaign games are over 400 turns long [X(] I'm mostly interested in 41/42 anyway so I'd be happy to just play the first two years or so. It's true that some of the MM deadwood could be cut out which would help.

As much as I love map detail I don't think I could cope with 2½ times as many hexes. My head would go pop :)




morvael -> RE: WitE 2 (3/23/2016 1:57:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63
What would be entailed, I don't get much time for gaming but for a noble cause such as this I may be able to find some extra time.
Manstein63


If MichaelT is correct and this is related to low truck pools we could try a modded scenario with low truck pool, and each turn should involve moving motorized units randomly up to their maximum MP distance and attacking with other units without taking ground to generate some wear and tear. HQs should be kept close to the front and their position remembered to know whether they moved on their own. As soon as this happens the game should be stopped so that it would be possible to check saves. It's a bit more effort than just pushing "next turn" button, but I fear with no action we may never get this situation (though we can try as it is a fast way and it may work).




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