RE: Combat Values (Full Version)

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Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 4:38:59 PM)

Irrelevant



MikeMarchant_ssl -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 5:00:21 PM)

Having the numbers available for those who are interested in them, in no way forces those who aren't interested in looking at them to do so.

Both sides of the argument can be equally happy if the data is published.


Best Wishes

Mike



Moltke71 -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 5:12:25 PM)

This discussion confirms my long-time suspicion that two types of people play wargames:

1. gamers

2. combat accountants.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 5:21:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

This discussion confirms my long-time suspicion that two types of people play wargames:

1. gamers

2. combat accountants.



You forgot

3.Accountable Combative Gamers



Angiel -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 5:23:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

Having the numbers available for those who are interested in them, in no way forces those who aren't interested in looking at them to do so.

Both sides of the argument can be equally happy if the data is published.




I think it's the best thing.



Moltke71 -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 5:27:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

This discussion confirms my long-time suspicion that two types of people play wargames:

1. gamers

2. combat accountants.





You forgot

3.Accountable Combative Gamers


Nah, #3 is just CYA for #2.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 5:47:51 PM)

I don't own the game yet. Went to purchase last night but had a problem doing so. Support ticket sent.

In the meantime I read more than a few post that have raised concerns that this might not be a game for me. For me, my biggest hurdle is not the under the hood calculations, even though I posted an extensive thread early on that raised many points others have since release. The developer chose to go another route and I am forced to accept that. It's his game after all. I can live without knowing the correct firepower during the game and % chance of hits, rally etc.

What is now keeping me on the fence, which you may deem as combat accountant, I consider relevant information that needs to be conveyed. i.e How far a unit can move in a turn, how many movement points a unit has left, and the range it can fire {which gunner doesnt know his weapons range?)

I may have been able to overcome the overly heavy clicking and the lack of polish on combat results and a more thorough use of it, but the lack of information on unit characteristics in game is causing my biggest concern. Maybe that info is in the manual? IMO, it should be known in game.



Moltke71 -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 5:58:27 PM)

Rebel,

Seriously, as one Missourian to another, I tend to share your concerns. I'm reviewing TotH so you may want to wait for my piece.



Gerry4321 -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 6:00:20 PM)

Agree with this.

I don't really need them as I have ASL but what about those that don't? It's OK to talk about playing for historical feel but many of those people have played ASL already and know the vehicles, etc. already


quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

Having the numbers available for those who are interested in them, in no way forces those who aren't interested in looking at them to do so.

Both sides of the argument can be equally happy if the data is published.


Best Wishes

Mike




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 6:04:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

Rebel,

Seriously, as one Missourian to another, I tend to share your concerns. I'm reviewing TotH so you may want to wait for my piece.



Show me [:)]





Edit: Added the smile to a somewhat inside joke, otherwise sounds kind of dickish



mainsworthy -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 6:04:20 PM)

the couple of charts needed are in the vassalengine website vassal module



Franciscus -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 6:33:33 PM)

Hi

I have never played SL or ASL, and am not a tactical wargamer. The buzz about this game nevertheless made me interested in exploring it, considering perhaps a future buy, but I am perplexed...

Do you guys mean that the available/remaining movement points of a unit are not shown anywhere ? There are no movement range indications/filter on-map ?

Regards



mainsworthy -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 6:38:46 PM)

if you install the JMass VASL Mod from the mods and scenarios section, the Tank counters have Move points on the chit, and in ASL its well know infantry move a 4hexes double time 6hexes + one hex if on a road, leaders adds 2 to the 4



Franciscus -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 6:49:08 PM)

So, with VASL mod installed the units counters display their MP ? In a dynamic way, or just their base value, even if spent ?

Thanks



mainsworthy -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 6:51:12 PM)

static values, you generaly move one in one go, so you wont come back to it same turn



Franciscus -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 6:56:34 PM)

Thanks for your answers. Still on the fence, though...



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 7:02:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Thanks for your answers. Still on the fence, though...



go here now for actual play.

twitch.tv/idjester

Im going to catch a bit



iPhoneAppz -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 7:09:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

I don't own the game yet. Went to purchase last night but had a problem doing so. Support ticket sent.

In the meantime I read more than a few post that have raised concerns that this might not be a game for me. For me, my biggest hurdle is not the under the hood calculations, even though I posted an extensive thread early on that raised many points others have since release. The developer chose to go another route and I am forced to accept that. It's his game after all. I can live without knowing the correct firepower during the game and % chance of hits, rally etc.

What is now keeping me on the fence, which you may deem as combat accountant, I consider relevant information that needs to be conveyed. i.e How far a unit can move in a turn, how many movement points a unit has left, and the range it can fire {which gunner doesnt know his weapons range?)

I may have been able to overcome the overly heavy clicking and the lack of polish on combat results and a more thorough use of it, but the lack of information on unit characteristics in game is causing my biggest concern. Maybe that info is in the manual? IMO, it should be known in game.

This.

It's not about being a combat accountant. It's about simulation. Wouldn't a leader know if his squad can make it over to that 'building over there' or not? Wouldn't he know that a wheat field provides cover? Wouldn't a tank commander know how far he can make it up a road in 2 minutes?

That's all I want.



Richie61 -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 7:31:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: iPhoneAppz
It's not about being a combat accountant. It's about simulation. Wouldn't a leader know if his squad can make it over to that 'building over there' or not? Wouldn't he know that a wheat field provides cover? Wouldn't a tank commander know how far he can make it up a road in 2 minutes?

That's all I want.



Course he would. But after he read the manuals of war, he would need to be "battle born" and learn from the experience of playing war [:)]



MikeMarchant_ssl -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 7:44:01 PM)

Generally military forces will learn all this stuff on the training ground long before they see a battle.


Best Wishes

Mike



Richie61 -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 8:03:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

Generally military forces will learn all this stuff on the training ground long before they see a battle.


Best Wishes

Mike


True.[sm=00000436.gif]
I wish all the young Engineers I work with could take their book training and apply it to the real day to day
world of Fire Protection without screwing the pooch for years before they learn how to apply it [:D]



armonica -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 9:16:32 PM)

I believe that for most of the ASL players, including me, those numbers, charts and tables were part of the fun.
To decide whether to risk taking that shot, to turn that corner, based on the actual values of that unit was part of the fun as well.
Now if this game claim to be inspired from ASL, stripping it from one of the ASL main features seems quite odd, after all this is
now the only wargame I now of, without any data/info on the units.
If every other wargame on the planet uses them, maybe there is a reason.
Anyhow against my best judgement, I ended up buying this game for support hoping that along the way things might improve, but
I have the feeling that the devs really don't like numbers.....
Having countless wargames on my hard drive, this is the most regrettable purchase so far.



Perelandra67 -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 10:00:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkie

Interesting discussion and how we each approach a "wargame". I always looked at the numbers on the counters as simply being the system by which results were obtained, either you created a result against your target or you didn't.

Never did I look at the numbers on the counter and think "Well my 76L has a 23% chance to hit if I drive it within 5 hexes of the side armor facing of the Panther giving me a 44.5% chance of penetrating hit... etc etc" I always looked at it as "I need to get a flank shot at that Panther so my infantry have a fighting chance of stopping this attack and if not Sgt.Johnson's squad is in big trouble in the village".

I see gaming as a historical narrative as opposed to a chess game with winning moves and absolutes. I guess that is why I never got into the scenario challenges in the old General magazine from AH.


Yes, this how I look at it was well...the historical narrative is what I was looking for.



Most ASL'ers aren't going to like this game. It's lacks a major portion of why we like ASL.
I'm not saying it's a bad game at all. It's just too simple and doesn't give the ASL-type wargamer the information needed to enjoy the historical narrative as envisioned by the developers. The fact that all these ASL mods (I get confused as thew which ASL mod is which) came out right away should say something....

Still, great job and obviously tons of time and hard work went into it.



Richie61 -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 10:08:34 PM)

LOL! From a Squad Leader player from 1977, this reminds me of the old days of SL vs ASL [:)] Some ASL'ers just make me laugh [:D]

One thing that seems to be over looked is that TotH may bring PC gamer's to ASL board games and the enjoyment of pushing cardboard counters around face to face with a human [;)]



Perelandra67 -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 11:16:01 PM)

true enough Richie61.

the "problem" with this game is that it is almost a great game that it leaves me, and perhaps others, feeling like "man, why didn't they go for more?"

The developers speak of historical narrative over and against "spreadsheets and tables and %'s" but for SOME people, not all, that "immersion" comes from the desire to make plans according to data we can interpret, not data that is "hidden." The lack of information here is unfortunate.



kylania -> RE: Combat Values (2/28/2016 11:33:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richie61
One thing that seems to be over looked is that TotH may bring PC gamer's to ASL board games and the enjoyment of pushing cardboard counters around face to face with a human [;)]


Absolutely has for me. Yanks 2 is on pre-order!



Richie61 -> RE: Combat Values (2/29/2016 12:03:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kylania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richie61
One thing that seems to be over looked is that TotH may bring PC gamer's to ASL board games and the enjoyment of pushing cardboard counters around face to face with a human [;)]


Absolutely has for me. Yanks 2 is on pre-order!

Very cool!

Old School Tactical here. Waiting for the box set now.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/170669/old-school-tactical

I have two boys to play board games with now. Panzer, Valor & Victory, Band of Brothers, Combat Commander, etc.
I tried SL and ASL, but they didn't care for them [&:] Said the games were too complex and had too much details that took away from the tactical fun part of playing.



FroBodine -> RE: Combat Values (2/29/2016 12:44:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

Rebel,

Seriously, as one Missourian to another, I tend to share your concerns. I'm reviewing TotH so you may want to wait for my piece.


Jim - please let us know when your review is available. I respect your insight, and have all the same concerns about lack of information that lots of folks have.



surfcandy -> RE: Combat Values (2/29/2016 1:55:37 AM)

Is the fixed A-H fire power affected when firing in good order at an adjacent enemy?



Gerry4321 -> RE: Combat Values (2/29/2016 2:14:51 AM)

Doubled for adjacent I believe.



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