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vicberg -> Game Suggestions (6/1/2016 7:20:12 PM)

This is a great game and reminds me of Harpoon, but with much more depth. But like Harpoon, I'm finding it challenging to actually manage a battle and it seems to require quite a bit of manual intervention to make work. If that is WAD, I get that, but you've put in Missions which implies you wish less manual intervention. For me, I wish to feel like I'm in charge of an operation and want to put my assets in the right location at the right time and let the assets make good decisions. The game isn't quite there yet.

I'm running latest version of game. purchased, downloaded and upgraded a few days ago.

1) Patrols and Support should have the same escort options, since often I want to escort a SEAD Patrol or Early Warning Support. Yes I can put CAP in the same spot for Early Warning and make sure that they don't investigate other contacts, but I'd rather simply put planes on Escort for Patrols, etc., and call it good. For Patrols, this implies the ability to assign extra planes such that there always escorts in the air.
2) CAP requires the same type of nautical radius that you allow for escorts of a strike. In other words, investigate up to X number of miles. Having to click on investigate and then unclick on investigate when they get too far away is a challenge in large scenarios. In addition, the CAP runs off to investigate and suddenly more CAP is back up, so I run out of CAP. For large scenarios, especially with many objects being tracked both friendly and not, it's a challenge to even find where your CAP ran off to to determine if they need to be brought back.
3) I had SEAD patrol set up with investigate contacts set and they didn't go after a known SAM mobile. Is this WAD? CAP will run off at a moments notice, so I found this surprising. The SAM contact was hostile.
4) I manually moved the SEAD Patrol, with a couple of Growlers (HARMS) and F-18s (Anti-Radiation) towards the known SAM battery and the patrol launched virtually EVERYTHING at 3 radars and a SAM Battery. I lost count of the # of missiles launched. I haven't found anything under patrol in terms of limiting what it launches. I've seen A2A missles launched one at a time, but this was surprising to see everything launched once it got into range.
4) I tried an automatic attack from a DDG against an airbase and it launched all 72 cruise missiles! I was hoping it would be a bit smarter on automatic.

My experience so far is that the game in some ways is very smart and enables me to simply put my assets in the right locations at the right time, so I feel like I'm in charge of an operation. Then the game gets not so smart and I'm having to get involved in manual control of many little aspects.



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/1/2016 7:41:48 PM)

And I've answered the Automatic Attack question as well as the SEAD patrol launching everything. Under WRA, I can specify how much is launched.

However, I've done UI design for a long long time. The WRA page lists every weapon individually and there's 100 different weapons in this scenario, 4 options per weapon per target type (and up to 20+ target types per weapon). You've got to find a way to filter this down and allow for global changes. For this single mission, if I don't want a unit firing it's entire salvo, I've got to do thousands of clicks.



anxiousbob -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/1/2016 9:23:44 PM)

It sounds like you're not using prosecution areas on CAP missions. Personally, I find these a lot more helpful than the response radius in nmi for escorts, as there's no visualization of that on the map and they can be fine-tuned much more.

As for the WRA, are you aware that the "unspecified target" setting near the top of the WRA fields is inherited by all options below it as long as they have not been manually changed already? I suppose it would be nice if you could shift click or control click to select multiple lines, but the "unspecified" usually works for me just fine.



Dannyp19 -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/1/2016 9:29:07 PM)

WRA

Yes, it can sometimes be a pain, but without it, is even more of a pain.

Remember WRA can be controlled by Side,Group,Mission and unit levels.

Its a lot more manageable on a mission/group level than the side level.






mikmykWS -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 12:43:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

And I've answered the Automatic Attack question as well as the SEAD patrol launching everything. Under WRA, I can specify how much is launched.

However, I've done UI design for a long long time. The WRA page lists every weapon individually and there's 100 different weapons in this scenario, 4 options per weapon per target type (and up to 20+ target types per weapon). You've got to find a way to filter this down and allow for global changes. For this single mission, if I don't want a unit firing it's entire salvo, I've got to do thousands of clicks.


You set the WRA once and the the ai uses it from then on in. Manual fire is a little different. In most cases the default is absolute fine so you make not changes. You'll also notice that when you change a category the whole line of options changes below it. If you could please play with this a bit more and let us know what you think. If after you still think its a bit much please let us know how we could fix it. We're definitely receptive to change.

Mike



mikmykWS -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 12:58:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

1) Patrols and Support should have the same escort options, since often I want to escort a SEAD Patrol or Early Warning Support. Yes I can put CAP in the same spot for Early Warning and make sure that they don't investigate other contacts, but I'd rather simply put planes on Escort for Patrols, etc., and call it good. For Patrols, this implies the ability to assign extra planes such that there always escorts in the air.


We can add an option or you can use prosecution zones like everybody else.

quote:

2) CAP requires the same type of nautical radius that you allow for escorts of a strike. In other words, investigate up to X number of miles. Having to click on investigate and then unclick on investigate when they get too far away is a challenge in large scenarios. In addition, the CAP runs off to investigate and suddenly more CAP is back up, so I run out of CAP. For large scenarios, especially with many objects being tracked both friendly and not, it's a challenge to even find where your CAP ran off to to determine if they need to be brought back.


Try using a AAW Patrol mission with a prosecution zone for CAP. You may get better results. Intercept missions are good for intercepts only.

quote:

3) I had SEAD patrol set up with investigate contacts set and they didn't go after a known SAM mobile. Is this WAD? CAP will run off at a moments notice, so I found this surprising. The SAM contact was hostile.


Was it in a patrol or prosecution zone? If so please do send a file along. We'd like to see the issue.

quote:

4) I manually moved the SEAD Patrol, with a couple of Growlers (HARMS) and F-18s (Anti-Radiation) towards the known SAM battery and the patrol launched virtually EVERYTHING at 3 radars and a SAM Battery. I lost count of the # of missiles launched. I haven't found anything under patrol in terms of limiting what it launches. I've seen A2A missles launched one at a time, but this was surprising to see everything launched once it got into range.


Look into WRA's. That is what they're for.

quote:


4) I tried an automatic attack from a DDG against an airbase and it launched all 72 cruise missiles! I was hoping it would be a bit smarter on automatic.


WRA. You can set rules for all sorts of things.

quote:

My experience so far is that the game in some ways is very smart and enables me to simply put my assets in the right locations at the right time, so I feel like I'm in charge of an operation. Then the game gets not so smart and I'm having to get involved in manual control of many little aspects.


This is true of every game I own.

Please do dig in and let us know what you think. My sense is that your opinion may benefit from reading a bit more of the manual and digging in. If you don't want to thats ok too.

Mike



thewood1 -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 1:11:53 AM)

I would suggest staying away from large scenarios until you learn the game's basic mechanics like prosecution zones, missions, etc. Stick to smaller scenarios or tutorials.



Dysta -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 2:21:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I would suggest staying away from large scenarios until you learn the game's basic mechanics like prosecution zones, missions, etc. Stick to smaller scenarios or tutorials.

Or, pause is your best friend. Manage everything carefully as long as the game is not running, save it and see the result. Load back when something goes wrong, and change the command.



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 2:55:12 AM)

Na... I always choose the largest scenario available. My best approach for learning all aspects of the game, including how to manage it.

WRA at the mission level is workable. For the Global WRA, I'd suggest adding a search field, make it open and do a partial word match on weapon name, so I could enter Tomahawk or AGM, and all those weapons come back. I'd put a second search field, partial word match on target type, so I could enter radar for example. The performance on the WRA global isn't the best, so it would help with performance also by reducing the volume of data.

Prosecution zone works fine no need for anything else. I can put my CAP at a single point to save fuel have solid control over how far they will run out.

Still unsure why my SEAD Patrol didn't run off to investigate, but I'm guessing that it was a range issue.




thewood1 -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 3:13:43 AM)

My suggestion is because you obviously aren't really learning the game. Prosecution areas are a basic component of missions. Try learning a little. There are a ton of resources around. If you start small and learn the basics, you might get a little more credibility by showing your not just duffing around asking obvious questions.



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 4:11:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

My suggestion is because you obviously aren't really learning the game. Prosecution areas are a basic component of missions. Try learning a little. There are a ton of resources around. If you start small and learn the basics, you might get a little more credibility by showing your not just duffing around asking obvious questions.


The developers and this company want all dumb or obvious questions asked and answered in a open forum. They want people engaged in the game and not getting frustrated because they didn't find it in the manual. The answer "shut up and go read a manual" doesn't exactly promote this game, especially when someone can usually get a very quick answer from the forum rather than spending hours reading a manual, especially since Matrix search engine isn't the most robust.

Same goes for technology. I can find answers in seconds, the same answers for the same questions asked hundreds of times in which people are ALWAYS ready to answer. Or I can spend hours reading through programming manuals.

It's a good thing and shows it's a very good game, something I'd suggest to you that you don't try to squelch.



thewood1 -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 11:56:17 AM)

That's all well and good, but there is an expectation that you read the manual and go through the tutorials. Otherwise, you are wasting your time and people trying to help you. Don't be so selfish. Put a little effort into it.



mikmykWS -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 2:47:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

My suggestion is because you obviously aren't really learning the game. Prosecution areas are a basic component of missions. Try learning a little. There are a ton of resources around. If you start small and learn the basics, you might get a little more credibility by showing your not just duffing around asking obvious questions.


The developers and this company want all dumb or obvious questions asked and answered in a open forum. They want people engaged in the game and not getting frustrated because they didn't find it in the manual. The answer "shut up and go read a manual" doesn't exactly promote this game, especially when someone can usually get a very quick answer from the forum rather than spending hours reading a manual, especially since Matrix search engine isn't the most robust.

Same goes for technology. I can find answers in seconds, the same answers for the same questions asked hundreds of times in which people are ALWAYS ready to answer. Or I can spend hours reading through programming manuals.

It's a good thing and shows it's a very good game, something I'd suggest to you that you don't try to squelch.



Actually experience has helped us develop a good sense about the intent of posters. Most want help, some like to chat and a few are just posting in to show the forum how smart they think they are. The critical thing is focusing on what and who is important.

Mike





vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 3:08:56 PM)

I'm not very smart and I'll admit that, but I did play GDW Air Superiority and Air Strike so I have an understanding of the overall mechanics. For 2010 technologies, not so much.

But here's why I'm doing this. Now that I have my nifty persecution zone setup, note the persecution zone and in the middle is my single patrol spot, so I'm not wasting fuel. Note the identified contacts at bottom.



[image]local://upfiles/28990/3BA3A6BA2B524F319090B79590FE2B9C.jpg[/image]



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 3:11:28 PM)

But here is what's happening about a minute later. Note the CAP is making a beeline straight towards patrol zone. The bogeys are the MIG-21s most likely not identified yet because of signature. I designated them as hostile and still no response from my cap.

[image]local://upfiles/28990/6348288C9FB2494B8F09F7F5B4895C32.jpg[/image]



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 3:12:28 PM)

But when I investigate contacts outside of patrol zone, immediate response from CAP. So for whatever reason, it's ignoring the persecution zone.

[image]local://upfiles/28990/31F46B39263A44D89177A73275E72FD4.jpg[/image]



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 3:22:14 PM)

And here's the issue. When I convert the persecution zone to a patrol zone, the CAP immediately moves to the hostile bogies. So it's ignoring hostile bogies in persecution zones. Unless I've got something wrong, there's something missing in the persecution zone logic.



thewood1 -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 3:53:41 PM)

Can you please, please, please, please put a save game up. You are making it very, very hard to help you.



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 3:57:59 PM)

Sure thing, but I'll need to set it up again. After changing my patrol zone from single spot to the persecution zone, I went back and changed it back to a single spot and received this. So I'll need to start the scenario over. I can reproduce it.

[image]local://upfiles/28990/3F1A8941A06A4B3CAA8BFFA5A67CB011.jpg[/image]



thewood1 -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 4:00:10 PM)

I suspect, you haven't set something in the ROE section. I highlighted where you might be screwed up.

From the Manual addendum:

• New patrol option: Prosecution Area. You can now define an exact area you want units to pursue contacts during a patrol. Units assigned to it will not pursue contacts outside the area. To use: add and select the necessary reference points, press the prosecution area button and add/remove reference points as you would with the patrol area function. If no prosecution area is added the mission works as it traditionally did in that there is no threshold.
Prosecution Areas (PAs) serve two purposes:
a) They act much like a forbidden zone in that contacts appearing within them are marked for interception, but they also restrict the extent at which interceptions will happen. So if you want your fighters to e.g. be triggered only by bandits within 200nm of a protected HVU instead of "waking up" to contacts thousands of miles away, PAs are the solution.
b) They act as a "leash" for assets on a patrol; they effectively determine the extent to which the patrol assets can give chase to receding targets. If the bandit moves out of the PA, the defender is forbidden to follow (though it can still engage with weapons if feasible). This solves the problem of patrol assets over-extending themselves during interception, quite often falling victims to feints/traps.
PAs are supported in the UI by modifications to the Mission Editor UI, and are populated by reference points in the same way as existing patrol areas. They are empty by default, and in this case the AI behavior is the same as before (intercept bandits far away etc.), to facilitate existing scenarios.
Units that are assigned to a patrol with a prosecution area will target & engage only contacts that are within this area (or their patrol area). If they are not on patrol or their patrol does not have a prosecution area, the existing AI rules apply.
This makes it possible to create SAM ambushes (shoot at far less than max range), divide areas of responsibility for multiple patrol forces etc.
PAs work as intented only when the "Investigate targets outside contact area" option is enabled. Also, the "engage targets of opportunity" doctrine option overrides the prosecution area restriction.



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 4:26:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Can you please, please, please, please put a save game up. You are making it very, very hard to help you.


Absolutely. The backstory is that I'm placing Early Warning and Cap far forward of the fleet due to nuclear tipped Backfires. One missile can destroy an entire fleet and the anti-missile tech can't seem to stop them.

This issue is repeatable. Simply change patrol zone to the persecution zone reference points (8342-8345) and the CAP immediately responds. Change Patrol zone back to single reference point (8346) and CAP goes back to ignoring the hostile bogies.




vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 4:32:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I suspect, you haven't set something in the ROE section. I highlighted where you might be screwed up.

From the Manual addendum:

• New patrol option: Prosecution Area. You can now define an exact area you want units to pursue contacts during a patrol. Units assigned to it will not pursue contacts outside the area. To use: add and select the necessary reference points, press the prosecution area button and add/remove reference points as you would with the patrol area function. If no prosecution area is added the mission works as it traditionally did in that there is no threshold.
Prosecution Areas (PAs) serve two purposes:
a) They act much like a forbidden zone in that contacts appearing within them are marked for interception, but they also restrict the extent at which interceptions will happen. So if you want your fighters to e.g. be triggered only by bandits within 200nm of a protected HVU instead of "waking up" to contacts thousands of miles away, PAs are the solution.
b) They act as a "leash" for assets on a patrol; they effectively determine the extent to which the patrol assets can give chase to receding targets. If the bandit moves out of the PA, the defender is forbidden to follow (though it can still engage with weapons if feasible). This solves the problem of patrol assets over-extending themselves during interception, quite often falling victims to feints/traps.
PAs are supported in the UI by modifications to the Mission Editor UI, and are populated by reference points in the same way as existing patrol areas. They are empty by default, and in this case the AI behavior is the same as before (intercept bandits far away etc.), to facilitate existing scenarios.
Units that are assigned to a patrol with a prosecution area will target & engage only contacts that are within this area (or their patrol area). If they are not on patrol or their patrol does not have a prosecution area, the existing AI rules apply.
This makes it possible to create SAM ambushes (shoot at far less than max range), divide areas of responsibility for multiple patrol forces etc.
PAs work as intented only when the "Investigate targets outside contact area" option is enabled. Also, the "engage targets of opportunity" doctrine option overrides the prosecution area restriction.


I'm seeing nothing in what you posted that imply I made a mistake. I certainly may have. Bogies are designated hostile. Bogies are within persecution zone. CAP isn't responding unless I make the Patrol zone the Persecution zone.



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 5:03:17 PM)

And a bit more. Within this same game I just posted, I changed patrol zone to persecution zone, CAP responded to MIG-21s, then responded to Flagons (northeast). I change patrol zone back to single reference and CAP didn't respond to identified (not bogey) Flagons within persecution zone. I change patrol zone back to persecution zone reference points and CAP responded again. So there's definitely something going on with the persecution zone logic.



Dimitris -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 5:15:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
Na... I always choose the largest scenario available. My best approach for learning all aspects of the game, including how to manage it.


Respectfully have to disagree. Going straight-in at large, complex scenarios is an excellent way to literally get lost. With small scenarios it is much easier to understand how the mechanics work and the rationale behind them.



Dimitris -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 5:16:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
Sure thing, but I'll need to set it up again. After changing my patrol zone from single spot to the persecution zone, I went back and changed it back to a single spot and received this. So I'll need to start the scenario over.


You can resume from a point just before the crash, using the "Resume from Autosave" function.



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 5:18:02 PM)

And a bit of advice is needed. I've done this mission about 10 times now. There simply aren't enough planes and missiles to stop the Russian attack. 1/2 of the starting US Carrier fighters requires 3 hours to ready. In that time frame, if the MIG-21s suicide into the carriers followed by the Flagons and I take out his Bear based Radar, then the Badgers and Backfires overwhelm.

I've tried being a hole in the water with nothing but passive and a Russian satellite comes over messing that one up. Perhaps I don't put up CAP at all and hope that that the Air to Surface take out the MIGs and Flagons?

I'm stumped.



Dimitris -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 5:19:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
The developers and this company want all dumb or obvious questions asked and answered in a open forum. They want people engaged in the game and not getting frustrated because they didn't find it in the manual. The answer "shut up and go read a manual" doesn't exactly promote this game, especially when someone can usually get a very quick answer from the forum rather than spending hours reading a manual, especially since Matrix search engine isn't the most robust.

Same goes for technology. I can find answers in seconds, the same answers for the same questions asked hundreds of times in which people are ALWAYS ready to answer. Or I can spend hours reading through programming manuals.

It's a good thing and shows it's a very good game, something I'd suggest to you that you don't try to squelch.


Actually experience has helped us develop a good sense about the intent of posters. Most want help, some like to chat and a few are just posting in to show the forum how smart they think they are. The critical thing is focusing on what and who is important.

Mike


I would pay great attention to Mike's points. He's here to help any way possible, but he's also a straight-shooter who won't shy from pointing outright flaws in your method.



vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 5:20:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
The developers and this company want all dumb or obvious questions asked and answered in a open forum. They want people engaged in the game and not getting frustrated because they didn't find it in the manual. The answer "shut up and go read a manual" doesn't exactly promote this game, especially when someone can usually get a very quick answer from the forum rather than spending hours reading a manual, especially since Matrix search engine isn't the most robust.

Same goes for technology. I can find answers in seconds, the same answers for the same questions asked hundreds of times in which people are ALWAYS ready to answer. Or I can spend hours reading through programming manuals.

It's a good thing and shows it's a very good game, something I'd suggest to you that you don't try to squelch.


Actually experience has helped us develop a good sense about the intent of posters. Most want help, some like to chat and a few are just posting in to show the forum how smart they think they are. The critical thing is focusing on what and who is important.

Mike


I would pay great attention to Mike's points. He's here to help any way possible, but he's also a straight-shooter who won't shy from pointing outright flaws in your method.


And that's exactly what I'm looking for



cf_dallas -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 5:23:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

And a bit more. Within this same game I just posted, I changed patrol zone to persecution zone, CAP responded to MIG-21s, then responded to Flagons (northeast). I change patrol zone back to single reference and CAP didn't respond to identified (not bogey) Flagons within persecution zone. I change patrol zone back to persecution zone reference points and CAP responded again. So there's definitely something going on with the persecution zone logic.


Based on the screen grabs I suspect you missed the manual line Wood hilighted.

You have to set up a patrol box (or a line, or a single point), then set a box for the prosecution area, AND you have to check "Investigate Contacts Outside Patrol Area." That tells your patrol "go to this location and loiter, then if contacts come within your area of responsibility, investigate."

I very much doubt you've found a logic or programming flaw, unless your copy of the game is very different from mine. It's worked very well for setting up literally hundreds of missions for me. And for dozens of other players.



Dimitris -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 5:28:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
My experience so far is that the game in some ways is very smart and enables me to simply put my assets in the right locations at the right time, so I feel like I'm in charge of an operation. Then the game gets not so smart and I'm having to get involved in manual control of many little aspects.

.....like real-life commanders.

CMANO is not chess. One of our goals, from the get go, was to accurately represent the semi-organized chaos that unfolds during even the most successful military operations of the post-WW2 period. Quite often the side who wins is the one who adapts on the fly and "plays speed chess" better (yes, even with near-textbook ops like the first days of Desert Storm). That's real life. That's CMANO.



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