SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (Full Version)

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mikeCK -> SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/17/2016 12:52:02 AM)

Ok, so this is NOT a criticism about how good a system should be or is. It's NOT A claim that something is a bug or not WAD so please don't take it that way. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Russian systems and ADA radar in general. I ran through a scenario recently and had a lot of trouble taking out Russian air defense sites. That's not the issue...the issue is HOW I failed and trying to understand how that happened.

In both scenarios I had 2 E/A-18g Growlers in the area with OECM active and 6 MALD-Ds active from a recent B-52 launch.

Scenario 1, I had two F-22s with all radars off and only internal AAMs flying at 35,000 feet. An SA-21b launch was detected (actually a bunch) from a site and radar in southern Crimea about 150-175 NM from the F-22s and the missiles started heading right for me. I ordered the F-22s to turn perpendicular to the missile vector but they kept tracking. Eventually the missiles struck (1st missile in one case and 2nd in the other) both F-22s and destroyed them.

Now, I'm not suggesting that F-22 is invincible or invisible. It is however, the most "stealthy" aircraft in the U.S. Arsenal and significantly less observable than the F-117, B2 or F-35. I'm also not suggesting that the SA-21b system is anything less than an incredibly capable system....far more capable than any SAM system in the west; but I was quite confused as to how the radar was able to detect AND TRACK my F-22s from well over 150nm away. 50nm? Sure...150? Just didn't seem right. So, am I just wrong here in my assumptions? I assume so but what am I missing?

Scenario 2 Same fight different area. 2 B-1bs with 24 JASSM-ERs each and an accompanying EA-18g pop up and fire off 48 JASSM-ERa at the 5 radars and 3 vehicles involved in the air defense...still some MALDs in the area. Now, these JASSMs are very low observable and flying at 30ft above the ocean. At 100nm the SA-21bs begin to fire. I also had 3 Mig-31s turn on a vector towards the missiles, get behind them and begin machine gunning them. By the time the JASSMs reached the coast of Crimea a few minutes later, all 48 had been shot down.

So same question, how does a ground based radar 100 nm away detect low observable missiles at 30ft altitude. Wouldn't the curvature of the earth prevent that? Also, how are the migs seeing them from 150-Nm away? I should add that the hit probability for the SA-21s was about 75%. The AA-12s used by the Migs was about 80%. I get the latter as IR is IR and it is a missile.

Again, I'm not suggesting they are invisible wonder weapons, but low altitude and low observability should get them inside 20-50nm I would think. I wouldn't guess a regular tomahawk would be visible at 30 feet from a ground bases radar 100nm away.



MR_BURNS2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/17/2016 3:16:22 AM)

Can you please upload the scenario files so people can take a look at it?

In your Scen 2 case the search radars may be on top of a hill, thus having a longer detection range against low-level targets. Southern Crimea is very hilly.




Rory Noonan -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/17/2016 4:32:15 AM)

Sounds odd on the face of it; a scenario file will help immensely.

Did the red side have AEW or other platforms that could have ID'd the targets?



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/17/2016 4:44:37 AM)

There has been previous discussion on the challenges of taking out today's Russian air defense like the S400. Here is one thread if you have not viewed it already:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4152911&mpage=1&key=�

My testing indicates that it takes a huge amount of firepower and planning to neutralize a S400 Bn. Please post your file since we will all benefit.

Thanks

Kevin



mikmykWS -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/17/2016 11:36:18 AM)

Yeah we really need a file and log to examine this.

Thanks!

Mike



mikeCK -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/17/2016 4:52:41 PM)

OK sorry guys I don't really post much on here so I didn't think about including a file. I'm at work but when I get home I will take care of it. I've deleted all the saved games sometime ago but I can run the scenario again....if it's not duplicated then it's on my end anyway.

@kevinkin: yeah, like I stated, as far as I know, the S400/Sa-21b is a superb missile system and is far better than anything possessed by the west. The Soviets and currently Russians have often produce better surface to air missile's and superior air to air missile's. It's one area that I feel their expertise surpasses the US or it's NATO allies. Just seemed a bit too good and spotting stealth aircraft and missiles from that distance but we'll see when I try to reproduce It and upload the file for you to see

I'm almost positive it's something I'm doing or assuming and not a data issue. Everything else is far too accurate for me to assume that I think.



Gneckes -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/17/2016 7:43:45 PM)

I just set up a tiny testing scenario, consisting of a B-2 launching JASSMs against an S-400 Battalion. The S-400 I stationed on the eastern Crimea at an altitude of 8m ASL, and the JASSMs came in at at an altitude of 9m.

They were detected at a distance of 16-17nm.

A high-flying F-22A I threw in there was picked up at a range of 29.6nm.
All detections happened through the Cheese Board radar.

Edit:
Ran another test, this time with the S-400 placed on a mountaintop at an elevation of 1386m. I noticed no difference in detection ranges, with the JASSMs getting picked up at a range of 16-16.8nm, and the F-22A detected at 29.5nm.



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/17/2016 9:42:03 PM)

I know the test was re: detection but curious if any JASSMs hit home? (n=12 I think makes a full load out)



Gneckes -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/17/2016 10:15:29 PM)

I launched one B-2 worth of JASSMs (16) and nope, they all got intercepted.

The funny thing is that the "missile defence value" of the S-400 is only 7, whereas the SA-5 has an absurdly high rating, i think it's 17 or something like that.



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/17/2016 11:54:11 PM)

That conforms to my experience too. Thanks.



mikeCK -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/18/2016 3:01:23 AM)

I just haven't had a chance to re run the scenario. My F-22s were definitely targeted outside 100nm but I can't speak to the JASSMs. I guess it's possibly that the radar saw the B-1s and just launched a bunch of missiles at those two...which subsequently hit the JASSMs. That would make it appear they were detected.

Like you, all mine were shot down very quickly once inside about 20NM. Just an endless stream of missiles that didn't seem to miss. But the missile is slow and big so once it IS detected, as long as the missile can maintain radar lock, I don't imagine it's to hard to hit.

If your test shows the stealth of the F-22 and JASSMs working as designed, that convinces me that everything is WAD...it was just some thing I was doing or assuming. Now i would HOPE my Ea-18s would be more effective but they were 200nm out and frankly, I don't know much about they capabilities

Going up against the S-400 makes you realize why the U.S. had spent so much money and effort designing low observable aircraft, stand off weapons and digital information sharing. It's a lot easier to let some F-35 sneaking around pass target Data to a B-1 with JASSM-Ers 250 miles away than trying to get the B-1 in close or launching HARMS. (Which by the way are useless against the SA-21b as they all get shot down. Lol)



NakedWeasel -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/18/2016 4:38:40 AM)

I find that an F-22 squadron's worth of SDB-2's has been quite effective in my scenarios, but I'll test again to be sure.



mikeCK -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/18/2016 5:09:54 AM)

Would the facing of the aircraft matter? In other words, when loitering it turns so it's back end is facing the radar...is that taken into account ?



NakedWeasel -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/18/2016 5:17:43 AM)

Yes, after having tested it with the latest version of the database, I can definitely confirm it, a squadron of F-22's loaded out with SDB-IIs does it with a single sortie, with no aircraft lost. The same test done with F-35A's and SDB-II's was even more dramatic, particularly with the powerful jamming ability they have.



Cik -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/18/2016 5:18:58 AM)

F-22 has all-around stealth as far as i know, though it could be slightly more visible from certain angles (left/right due to more visible cross-section(?)

either way though it shouldn't have been detected at 100 miles. if it was, either something is visually seeing it (ships with FLIR?) or there's something fishy going on. even an AWACS shouldn't really be detecting them that far, though that would explain all the anomalous very-long-range missile shootdowns (AWACS lookdown deals with horizon/surface-skimming problems)

were your raptors jamming at all? if you flip on your jammer any stealth you have is negated, because you are emitting. modern missile systems usually have home-on-jam (HOJ) capabilities which can seek jammer signals, albeit usually with a degraded probability of kill.

also, if you have your radar on that could allow a long-range FLIR to look at you with a bearing provided by a radar-warning-receiver, so check that stuff to make sure it's not giving you away.




NakedWeasel -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/18/2016 8:21:12 AM)

SIDE: Russia
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
3x SA-16 Gimlet [9K310 Igla-1] MANPADS
8x SA-21a/b Growler TEL
1x Vehicle (Cheese Board [96L6])
1x Vehicle (Grave Stone [92N2])


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
21x SA-21b Growler [40N6]



SIDE: Coalition
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
19x GBU-53/B SDB-II



SIDE: Neutral
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------






kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/18/2016 10:48:46 AM)

Thanks. Will try that in the sandbox. Good to know for future scenarios both designing and playing.



wild_Willie2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/19/2016 5:45:06 PM)

While playing around with the editor I found out that my F22 and F-35's where almost always detected by modern adversaries via their IR signatures. When seen from a rear aspect, these AC can be detected from as far as 60 miles away while frontal detection is limited to about 24 miles. Once detected via IR is made, a S-400 will volley missiles at an intercept course and I found that masking by my IR signature by turning radically towards the spotter (change course) and going to full speed, the incoming S-400 volley can be successfully avoided as the course of the missiles will no longer intercept your last known course/heading and they cant receive updates as the spotter can no longer detect your IR signature. Without latest generation IR spotting, both the F35 and F22 can actually get really close (20 miles) to an S300/400 system without being engaged by these systems. These systems will detect you way before this point, but they will be unable to generate a firing resolution as the radar can not lock on to the stealth fighters before these get close enough (about 20 miles).
Even jammers like the Growler only have very little effect on these modern SAM systems and a jamming growler at 150 miles from an S-400 will only have negligible effect on the search radar and instead will actually be screaming "HERE I AM, PLEASE SHOOT ME!!" and will thus be almost always be fired upon.



NakedWeasel -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/20/2016 1:02:37 AM)

A jamming F-35A definitely has an effect on the SAM system, from well beyond 100nm, from what I've seen.



wild_Willie2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/20/2016 9:03:43 PM)

Bloody hell, since when did the F35 get active jamming capabilities in game??
This is the first time I noticed this :s

W.



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/21/2016 12:51:36 AM)

A jamming F-35A? What load out is that? I do not see it. But need to try it. Thanks.



DrRansom -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/21/2016 1:34:49 AM)

Hmm, F-35 successfully jamming beyond 100 miles? That seems to be suspiciously powerful.

Unless it is a deception style jammer, but that would be limited to the plane itself...



ExNusquam -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/21/2016 11:04:02 PM)

quote:

Hmm, F-35 successfully jamming beyond 100 miles? That seems to be suspiciously powerful.

I wouldn't be surprised if Command is undermodeling the EW capabilities of the AN/APG-81. AESA's have some really, really impressive beamforming capabilities. Here's some slides from an UNCLASS VX-31 presentation on the APG-79 on the Super Hornet; take note that Electronic Attack is a feature of both A/A and A/S envelopes, and the AESA is less detectable while emitting than a non-AESA that is under EMCON.



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/22/2016 4:13:59 AM)

I do not see any option for the a/c to jam at all irrespective of any modeling. Loadout?

Kevin



wild_Willie2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/22/2016 4:36:21 AM)

No database version...

Update to the latest version :)

W.



mikeCK -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (11/22/2016 5:40:00 AM)

Well, spotting the F-22 via IR would make sense. My planes were loitering so they often exposed engines. I will play around with it. I wish the U.S. Would get a really fast ground attack missile. My AARM move at 2.5 Mach I think and get blown out of the sky...but maybe a semi stealthy JASSM type moving low at Mach 2-3. Just takes my JASSMs sooooo long to hit after they are close enough to be detected. Watching them get blown out of the sky one by one until all gone



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (2/27/2017 7:46:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedWeasel

Yes, after having tested it with the latest version of the database, I can definitely confirm it, a squadron of F-22's loaded out with SDB-IIs does it with a single sortie, with no aircraft lost. The same test done with F-35A's and SDB-II's was even more dramatic, particularly with the powerful jamming ability they have.


Having a difficult time reproducing this trying to design an AI controlled attack sequence for the "computer player". I can't do myself in fact.[&:]

Could someone provide hints on how to achieve the kills with no losses listed above: Squadron of F22s with any ordnance vs the S-400 Battalion? The devil must be in the details.

Kevin



DWReese -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (2/27/2017 8:29:33 PM)

If you are going to do further testing (and I would), I would suggest working with minimal units. Start with just the SAM and the plane. When does the radar unit detect the plane? At what altitude? Try different ones? Keep notes? Then, add a OpFor plane. Did that make a difference? What were the range and altitude for each detection? Try it at different altitudes. Then, fire the missiles at the SAM (or target). When did the SAM detect them? With, and without the OpFor planes.

I you strip it all completely down to just bare minimums, then you can see what it happening. Play it from the Scenario Editor and swap back and forth often. That way you can see what is being seen and when, and with what equipment.

There may be an error, but you can't be sure until you do all of the rest of these tests.

Doug



wild_Willie2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (2/27/2017 10:00:25 PM)

The problem is that the S400's radar wil detect the F22 at 30 miles and engage the SBD bombs at 50 miles once released so I don't know how the OP took out an S400 with just F22's. This is only possible if more then 64 weapons are
released at the S400 site and it shoots itself dry trying to defend itself.

The same can be achieved by firing 65 HARMS at it btw...


W.





kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (2/27/2017 10:31:57 PM)

Thanks guys. I like the minimalist idea. My findings conform to Wild Willie2. I am trying to do this in the context of a community scenario lasting about 1 day. Given the fire power required, my intended "skirmish" would escalate into a major conflict. Well that's up to me to design. But at least I know I am not missing something simple like the OP outlined. Glad I circled back on this. BTW has the S-400 ever engaged a hostile target? What is it's efficacy based on?

Kevin



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