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Telemecus -> RE: 8MP Axis - T2 AirWar (4/10/2018 3:16:53 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ladner
This is in reference to Telemecus graphic of the staging principle.
On staging bases you can find them explained in the manual - 16.1.3.
The key point is that many air missions first consist of airgroups flying to a staging base and then flying from the staging base together to the target and then back again via the staging base. The AI will often select a staging base for air missions it arranges - although often not the one you wanted it to use unless you are careful with airbase placements. However if during your turn you can select an airbase on the map you can force that airbase to be used as the staging base for any air missions you then conduct. And indeed playing the air war well I think you should plan all air missions to be two-stage missions.
There are some restrictions
i) Axis airgroups in a base which is part of an HQ can only stage from bases in that same HQ, bases assigned to its parent HQ, or bases assigned to HQs assigned to its parent HQ. (There will be restrictions for Soviet airgroups that are perhaps better described by an experienced Soviet player)
ii) The staging base must be within the radius of a particular model of aircraft from the airbase it is assigned to, and also in the same radius to the target. (for transport missions the staging base has to be closer than radius)
iii) The distance from originating base to final target cannot be more than one and a half times the radius for that model of aircraft.
iv) Other restrictions such as only recon flying from a recon base and only airgroups of the same nationality also apply to staging bases.
v) Recon staging from LW through army recon or from army recon through LW have further rules which I have not fully worked out - and operate differently for AI and manually.
vi) Interception cannot be with a staging base.
quote:
ORIGINAL: beender
I attached all the fliegerkorps to one air flotte hq so that no problem of staging base at all will occur, and the cost seems to be minimal...Do i miss anything?
That used to be common practise and would be a good idea... but I thought that had been nerfed in the latest versions? I thought only 8 airbases could be assigned to a flieger korps and 16 in total under a Luftflotte now? I do however make sure the maximum of eight airbases are under my best fligerkorps leader (Richtofen) and many under my best Luflotte leader (Kesselring). It goes without saying my Richtofen bases are priority and not used as empty staging bases!
However staging bases do not supply fuel/ammo to staging airgroups (which I suspect may be a mistake in the game design)
Typically as Axis in summer 1941 I have three types of Luftwaffe bases.
i) Staging bases - completely empty of all airgroups and usually with very little fuel or ammo in them
ii) Rail line bases - usually full of the heaviest types of aircraft, fuel/ammo/supply/support and typically on a repaired rail line hex
iii) Forward bases - for shorter range aircraft (fighters, dive bombers) whose range means they cannot reach the front line from a rail repaired hex.
As from the diagram above you will see airbases cycle between these categories.
My typical set up is to have lots of staging bases right up with the front line. Indeed typically stacked on the front line. And every time my frontline advances, my staging bases move forward with them. This guarantees the furthest reach into your enemy territory for operations like long distance recon and industry bombing. It may also mean - though others may be able to better confirm/deny - that auto missions are more likely if close to the staging base. This would mean more ground support etc.
Typically my rail line bases are at the furthest point of rail repair - usually one turn behind the FBDs. But if your opponent is aware of this setup then you may have to vary it a little so that they cannot automatically know where they are. The start of every turn after sending a lot of airgroups to reserve typically consists of finding one empty rail line base, moving it forward to the end of rail repair, air transfering other heavy airgroups forward so that another rail line base is empty and so on repeating. Eventually you should find all your heavy airgroups air transfered forward to rail line bases at the end of the rail line (not moved overground) plus have a few left over (from the aircraft sent to reserve). You need these bases to have a lot of ammo/fuel/support and supply.
The forward bases are not on rails typically in 1941 for Axis as the frontline advances so much faster than rail repair. But nevertheless you would still want them as close as possible to the rail head (to minimise vehicle use/ maximise supply) while still being in the radius of staging bases. As interception cannot use staging bases you may also want forward bases with fighters to have the frontlines in their radius so you can give them fighter cover when needed.
Using this set up will mean your airgroups can conduct all missions they normally would, either interception from forward bases or all other missions from staging bases. The advantages are
i) The immense saving of vehicles use which means fewer damaged or destroyed - which you will desperately need come the blizzard. Some old AARs advocate not using the air force at all for this reason. But with staging bases you do not need such a drastic solution.
ii) The improved supply. Airbases on or closer to rails get a lot more ammo and fuel. Also airbases further west will get more anyway due to the rail supply modifier. Typically many Axis air offensives run dry when they get far from rails. With staging bases (as well as rotating bases between forward areas and rails) you should always have as much as you need.
iii) Less visibility to the enemy - typically they will know where all your empty staging bases are - but have no idea where your important bases and airgroups are.
iv) The improved defensive posture. Having your airbases further back from the front makes them much more difficult to attack. Indeed in 1941 the Axis has the option to keep them out of range of Soviet fighters (which have a shorter range) altogether. You could choose whether to engage in dogfights over the front lines or be susceptible to fighter sweeps if you want to. But otherwise the Luftwaffe could completely shut up shop far behind enemy lines leaving the only way to be attacked by the Soviet side realistically being unescorted night bombing (while still having the ability to fly missions in your turn!)
v) Economising on air miles. Ideally you should never move an airbase with airgroups in them - which for me often means move them empty to where you want them then air transfer airgroups to it at the start of the turn and do not move them again. BUT you can move staging bases with no aircraft. For example if I am ground bombing a section of the front line I would typically move an empty staging base parallel to the front line before each mission to give the shortest possible route. I used to also think the air miles flown from airbase to staging base actually took a quarter of the miles used compared to the same distance flown afterwards (as non-combat flight is more fuel/miles economical see 16.1.1) however I have to thank EwaldvonKleist for testing this to find it does not. I think it used to and believe it still helps in some way such as reducing fatigue. But at least in the latest version based on miles flown it does not. This is an area I am still investigating. And finally if you are used to moving back airbases from the front at the end of every turn (increasing airgroup miles/fatigue drastically) this way you will not have to.
vi) Less losses from overruns. If the only airbases near the front are low on fuel with no airgroups then you do not care (a lot, or even allot) if the enemy overuns them with ground forces in their turn. I imagine for a Soviet player in 1941 this would be a great benefit.
vii) Perhaps as a corollary to the above, you can consider targets deeper/further to the rear of your enemy.
viii) The possibility of pooling/stochastic economies by concentrating your bomber force in one spot on rails. for example the best freshest bombers could first attack north, then far south and then switch north again. You will never have one airbase with airgroups unused while another was short. And to answer beender
quote:
ORIGINAL: beender
(range penalty makes the only air flotte hq quite ineffective in leader checks two thirds of the time)...Do i miss anything?
Yes. Take the example of the graphic below from turn 10. The red arrows show second stage air missions, black arrow first stage. Airbases are highlighted in red. You will see the vast bulk of the bombers are based 1 hex or less away from the HQ of Luftflotte 2 - so absolutely no range penalty on almost all of them. The graphic shows some of the air missions conducted in turn 10 with their staging bases. The rail line bases are on repaired rail hexes, so one turn behind the rail repair of FBD3. You will also see an example of one of the forward fighter bases - both giving fighter cover over part of the front and staging as escort for some bomber missions.
[image]local://upfiles/53894/3175D5A608944F5BA972A348F224C6C4.jpg[/image]
quote:
ORIGINAL: beender
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mamluke
you see, each Air flotte hq is subordinate to one Army Group, for exe, air flotte 1 is under Army group North, while Air flotte 4 is under army group South.
in order to provide Ground support, the air planes higher HQ NEED to be under the same army group as the attacking ground forces, other wise ground support will never be done.
in fact, it might even prevent interception as well! although this I'm less sure of. But for ground support, there is no doubt!!
I knew there was such a restriction for soviet in terms of ground support. For axis i thought only nationality mattered. Need to read the manual to make sure.
I am with beender here I am afraid. AGN for many turns has had no airgroups and many of their airbases were transfered to FKVIII under Richtofen. But FKVIII and other parts of Lft2 have provide full ground and other support to AGN and even FHC many many times in this game. This is a Soviet restriction - Axis restrictions relate to nationalities. A recent patch did mention trying to fracture the Luftwaffe according to command lines - but I have seen no evidence of it so far.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mamluke
I think range for air command seams to be mute. range makes no difference in leader checks, tele can confirm.
True for the first level air command - but not higher levels. If you have an airbase in a flieger korps, its range to luftflotte HQ does matter.
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