RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (Full Version)

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John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/12/2020 3:21:34 PM)

I have also converted several Nate squadrons to 84r squadrons. So I have a number of these aircraft on the front lines. But that may be typical and so may not be an explanation for my low pool numbers.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/278CF9AAF34F428492DF7AE15DFE3B3B.jpg[/image]



RangerJoe -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/12/2020 6:34:25 PM)

If a one point fighter destroyed a 2 point bomber, then he has to get how many more points from elsewhere for Victory Purposes? He would need three points so that does work in your favor. The Japanese did form units to do this and some pilots did it more than one time.



GetAssista -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/12/2020 8:30:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.
Get Assista, Well, I was actually happy to have the 84rs at above 200 in the pool for the first time in the game but that did not last more than a turn. :) Here is the latest pool info. I've been living hand to mouth on fighter production for a long time and the increases have basically only kept pace with losses and bombing. Since this is my first time as the Emperor I may have saved up too much supply (I'm still at 1,800,000 or so saved up) as opposed to converting into more aircraft production more quickly. But I really don't know. Given that Scott can sweep with godawful numbers of fighters to clear the way for his bombers, I've focused fighter and AA defense on a few cities and I'm basically letting him bomb elsewhere for free.

Well, luckily Scott does not know about your glass chin here. Else he would've consistently bombed the fighter factories and it'd all come to an end really fast. Supply will help you in the land war if he insists on Home Islands invasion



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/12/2020 8:31:37 PM)

I think I got one 4 engine bomber that way and 2-3 twin engine bombers. But, I'd rather my boys shoot planes down and keep my planes in the air. :)



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/12/2020 8:32:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.
Get Assista, Well, I was actually happy to have the 84rs at above 200 in the pool for the first time in the game but that did not last more than a turn. :) Here is the latest pool info. I've been living hand to mouth on fighter production for a long time and the increases have basically only kept pace with losses and bombing. Since this is my first time as the Emperor I may have saved up too much supply (I'm still at 1,800,000 or so saved up) as opposed to converting into more aircraft production more quickly. But I really don't know. Given that Scott can sweep with godawful numbers of fighters to clear the way for his bombers, I've focused fighter and AA defense on a few cities and I'm basically letting him bomb elsewhere for free.

Well, luckily Scott does not know about your glass chin here. Else he would've consistently bombed the fighter factories and it'd all come to an end really fast. Supply will help you in the land war if he insists on Home Islands invasion

I think he is starting to figure it out as he has targeted engine and fighter production the past few days. I'm building up factories where I have defenses so we'll see how long I can keep that going.



RangerJoe -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/12/2020 10:22:33 PM)

I have told the Allied players who did not know what to target, to target the engine factories. The engines will produce and stockpile with no air frame to put them in, but the air frames don't stockpile if there are no engines. So make them early and keep production on for the necessary engines that you will need later.



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/12/2020 10:36:26 PM)

I'm building up the engine factories in Tokyo as much as I can. It's my last redoubt!



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/15/2020 9:50:46 PM)

Another day and more mayhem and death. I tried the mini-subs again and lost all 4 without them firing a shot. I sent my DDs in and lost 4 and only sank one so not too hot on the naval front. The losses at Shiminoseki favored me but I really wish the troops would listen to me and not bombard just because Scott is landing troops each turn. I'm already disabled enough from the BB conveyor belt.

Air losses were pretty even which favors me and Scott sank a whole bunch of AKLs up north that were out of fuel and there until the end of the war.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/52E7A13B00D6498C9D0BBC6BDD493326.jpg[/image]



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/15/2020 9:53:46 PM)

So, I'm going to try another Kamikaze attack. These have never worked against one of Scott's beachheads. If the sweeps don't fly the Kamis go in in the morning and get slaughtered. If my sweeps do fly, then the Kamis go in during the afternoon and get slaughtered. Or, no one flies at all.

This time I have sweeps coming from 4 hexes and Kamis from three of those. The CVs are going to sail part way and attempt to join in the attack. I have about 75% of the Japanese fighter force there so, if Scott guess right he can pretty much plaster any town as there really are no fighter defenses this turn.

We shall see!

[image]local://upfiles/39741/36283E42159B440BAD9C7021DEE9A514.jpg[/image]



RangerJoe -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/16/2020 12:05:09 AM)

If you put some units on reserve, then they should not participate unless they are needed in an attack.



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/16/2020 12:34:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If you put some units on reserve, then they should not participate unless they are needed in an attack.

Do units in reserve get affected by bombardments?



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/17/2020 4:06:59 PM)

Did the mass Kamikaze's work? Silly reader, of course not. This time there was bad weather over the target hex on both the AM and the PM air turn. I've seen plenty of times where there is not air missions on one turn due to weather but almost no turns where weather has been bad all day long. The list of failed Kamikaze strikes on invasion hexes just keeps growing.

Of course, now Scott knows I'm coming since he can see the build up on my airfields (and one kami set at longer range than intended did make a strike right next to Shiminoseki). And, that strike at least hit a CL and a DD. They were not listed as being damaged or on fire In for a penny in for a pound. I put the CVs in hiroshima and sent more squadrons down to participate in the combined naval air/kami attack. We shall see. Got lucky, US sub took a shot at one of the CVs and missed.

One bright note is that some planes I had set for LRCAP intercepted some of Scott's dive bombers making city attacks. There are fewer dive bombers now. :)

Night raids by B-29s and not much else going on. Scott did lost 166 squads landing at Shiminoskei and I lost about 100 by involuntarily bombarding him on the beachhead.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/12D022A80F2D4C588400DA535769CE01.jpg[/image]



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/17/2020 4:07:33 PM)

Actual plane losses.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/799ECEF465BD4C06B16FD531943DC799.jpg[/image]



RangerJoe -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/17/2020 7:01:29 PM)

If he is targeting certain hexes with his dive bombers, move all of your 20mm and 25mm auto cannons to those hexes to warmly greet them.

Just like the man who was invited to the US. He was on the passenger ship, there were lots of fireworks, and he told the guy who met him that the US really must like the fact that he came. The response was "Yes, and it is the Fourth of July!"



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/17/2020 7:35:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If he is targeting certain hexes with his dive bombers, move all of your 20mm and 25mm auto cannons to those hexes to warmly greet them.

Just like the man who was invited to the US. He was on the passenger ship, there were lots of fireworks, and he told the guy who met him that the US really must like the fact that he came. The response was "Yes, and it is the Fourth of July!"

We have a real cat and mouse game going with flak. I have a level 101 flak at Shiminoseki which basically means that he does not bomb me there. So, it's not causing any losses but it's saving my troops additional aggravation. There are only a few hexes I can defend with flak as one or two units get overwhelmed quickly by his mass air raids. Tokyo as 203 flak. :)



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/19/2020 5:43:33 PM)

what total and complete BS. I know that there are a lot of people on here who claim that this is a perfect game and anything that is not working must be the players fault, but these Kamikaze results are idiotic and basically designed to insure maximum losses of Japanese aircraft for minimal allied ship losses. There are other examples from this game (all sweeps flew in the morning, all kamis flew in the afternoon into the reconstituted CAP) but now we have this.

Here are today's total air losses. Interesting note, one (1!) Japanese plane made it through Allied CAP out of these 431 that were shot down.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/5AAD3F360BD64CD58FCC0B4F6AAD10D7.jpg[/image]



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/19/2020 5:47:57 PM)

But, the Kamis each came from the four indicated bases. And, on each base, there were fighter sweeps set to go. Not a single fighter sweep flew. Not one. In fact, I had 32 separate squadrons set for fighters sweeps. Each squadron had a commander with an aggression of at least 60 and many of the fighter squadrons are rested and high experience. So, in total 31 kami/naval bombing squadrons activated but not a single sweep. Not one.

Think about it, on each base the kamis and naval planes activated but no sweep squadron did. Poor die rolls? If sometimes Kami attacks against amphibious hexes worked I'd buy it, but it happens time and again.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/69526AB4B37F4BAAB666903B333367F6.jpg[/image]



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/19/2020 5:53:09 PM)

Here is a sample from Kobe. Not the rested high experience fighter squadrons set to sweep that did not fly (yes, they were set to the correct range). Note the Kami/naval squadrons at the bottom that flew and got destroyed. It's the same at the other bases.

And, yes, the air commanders at Kobe and Hiroshima were both good and with high aggression.

There really seems to be a bubble around US amphibious hexes that maximize Japanese losses with no harm to the US. It really takes away from the enjoyment of the game.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/6A090F1F2FBB4FA7A1ADEAF80DD38438.jpg[/image]



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/19/2020 5:54:24 PM)

And, yes, I also had escorts over Shiminoseki but Scott's several sweeps went in fine and cleared them all away. Then my Kamis went in.



castor troy -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/19/2020 7:20:50 PM)

Too many Yay sayers around and many Nay sayers left. We have to have pretty much the same view on the so called airroutines. They aren't working on a big scale, not at all. What is/was great for UV was not so great for WITP and AE, well, AE has surely made a lot of things even worse (while it does other things way better though). If you complain too hard you'll get advice to look at the air coordination guide, a pseudo thread of a guy that didn't even play PBEM by the time he posted that so called guide. One of my favourites, most things were proved wrong but it seems to have become gospel over the years.

Do you have escorts with your Kamis? You won't find a reason why aircraft don't fly, other than bad weather over a base. That's just how the game is, if you meet everything everybody knows/does then it's just the usual goofy why units don't fly. Escorts literally always fly, that way you would at least lose the escorts but some or many Kamis could get through.



BBfanboy -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/19/2020 8:10:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

But, the Kamis each came from the four indicated bases. And, on each base, there were fighter sweeps set to go. Not a single fighter sweep flew. Not one. In fact, I had 32 separate squadrons set for fighters sweeps. Each squadron had a commander with an aggression of at least 60 and many of the fighter squadrons are rested and high experience. So, in total 31 kami/naval bombing squadrons activated but not a single sweep. Not one.

Think about it, on each base the kamis and naval planes activated but no sweep squadron did. Poor die rolls? If sometimes Kami attacks against amphibious hexes worked I'd buy it, but it happens time and again.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/69526AB4B37F4BAAB666903B333367F6.jpg[/image]

Looks like the air bases ran out of ops points getting the Kamis into action so they couldn't gas up the sweepers. I know level 9 and 10 suffer no overstacking penalties for numbers of units or aircraft, but you still need to have enough air support for those masses of aircraft.



GetAssista -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/19/2020 8:21:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.
But, the Kamis each came from the four indicated bases. And, on each base, there were fighter sweeps set to go. Not a single fighter sweep flew. Not one.

What was the target of the sweeps? Note that you cannot sweep your own base, you can set the target but they wont fly



mind_messing -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/19/2020 9:15:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

what total and complete BS. I know that there are a lot of people on here who claim that this is a perfect game and anything that is not working must be the players fault, but these Kamikaze results are idiotic and basically designed to insure maximum losses of Japanese aircraft for minimal allied ship losses. There are other examples from this game (all sweeps flew in the morning, all kamis flew in the afternoon into the reconstituted CAP) but now we have this.

Here are today's total air losses. Interesting note, one (1!) Japanese plane made it through Allied CAP out of these 431 that were shot down.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/5AAD3F360BD64CD58FCC0B4F6AAD10D7.jpg[/image]


Funny, I had almost similar results to you in my PBEM with Loka a while back, except the losses were around 1.1k planes in the one turn.

I've learned a fair bit since then, and with a friendly intention, I think you do too.

Some top line reflections from me:

- Kamikazes as a stand-alone weapon will always be in-effective, they really need to fit in to a wider strategy.

- If that strategy is limited to the air alone, then it is very likely to fail.

- What's needed is a multi-faceted approach that combines conventional air strikes with kamikazes, as well as naval actions designed to disrupt and disperse the Allied air response.

- For Japan in 1945 the night phase is your friend, even ineffective nuisance naval attacks on Allied task forces burn up AA ammo.

- Allied deathstar CAP is strong, but it can be beaten. I was previously convinced by the notion of one overwhelming co-ordinated IJ strike that would punch through Allied CAP and deliver a crushing blow. Bringing that about is a massive challenge.

- Much more feasible in my mind is the slow attrition of a CAP as it responds to threats with as wide an altitude delta as possible. In theory, Japan can conduct attacks on Allied CV formations from between 100ft to 48,000 feet.

- The advantage of 100ft attacks at avoiding the large Allied advantage of radar is often overlooked.

- So to is pilot quality. Escorting pilots are often considered expendable and a role beneath higher EXP pilots. I think this thinking is counter-productive if you are actually expecting escorts to get the bombers through.



PaxMondo -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/19/2020 9:42:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

- For Japan in 1945 the night phase is your friend, even ineffective nuisance naval attacks on Allied task forces burn up AA ammo.


Cannot be over-emphasized, and most overlook this aspect.



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/20/2020 1:43:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Too many Yay sayers around and many Nay sayers left. We have to have pretty much the same view on the so called airroutines. They aren't working on a big scale, not at all. What is/was great for UV was not so great for WITP and AE, well, AE has surely made a lot of things even worse (while it does other things way better though). If you complain too hard you'll get advice to look at the air coordination guide, a pseudo thread of a guy that didn't even play PBEM by the time he posted that so called guide. One of my favourites, most things were proved wrong but it seems to have become gospel over the years.

Do you have escorts with your Kamis? You won't find a reason why aircraft don't fly, other than bad weather over a base. That's just how the game is, if you meet everything everybody knows/does then it's just the usual goofy why units don't fly. Escorts literally always fly, that way you would at least lose the escorts but some or many Kamis could get through.

Hi Castor,

Thanks for the note, I did have escorts, but, Scott flew a number of sweeps over the target hex that shot down almost more of the escorts by the time the Kami raids were launched. I'm also not sure that it's merely a matter of the number of planes involved being too great. This has happened before with smaller attacks I've made (one in the Philippines and one in China). It seems as if there is something that does not allow Japanese fighter sweeps and Kamis into the same hex on the same air impulse.



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/20/2020 1:53:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

But, the Kamis each came from the four indicated bases. And, on each base, there were fighter sweeps set to go. Not a single fighter sweep flew. Not one. In fact, I had 32 separate squadrons set for fighters sweeps. Each squadron had a commander with an aggression of at least 60 and many of the fighter squadrons are rested and high experience. So, in total 31 kami/naval bombing squadrons activated but not a single sweep. Not one.

Think about it, on each base the kamis and naval planes activated but no sweep squadron did. Poor die rolls? If sometimes Kami attacks against amphibious hexes worked I'd buy it, but it happens time and again.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/69526AB4B37F4BAAB666903B333367F6.jpg[/image]

Looks like the air bases ran out of ops points getting the Kamis into action so they couldn't gas up the sweepers. I know level 9 and 10 suffer no overstacking penalties for numbers of units or aircraft, but you still need to have enough air support for those masses of aircraft.

Hi BBFanboy,

Thanks for the idea. I double checked to make sure. As you can see, for example, here at Hiroshima there were more air support available than required. The Kami squadrons launched and no fighter sweeps. Also, at Fukokua, I only had sweeps flying and that base and there were 450 air support squads for only 160 aircraft and no sweeps flew. The only base that was short was Kobe but it still had 660 aviation support but only had to launch 5 Kami squadrons (circa 100 aircraft). It did not launch any of the fighter squadrons on their sweep missions.

[image]local://upfiles/39741/6F639BAAB0F94F679B1F20652AC54C83.jpg[/image]



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/20/2020 1:54:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.
But, the Kamis each came from the four indicated bases. And, on each base, there were fighter sweeps set to go. Not a single fighter sweep flew. Not one.

What was the target of the sweeps? Note that you cannot sweep your own base, you can set the target but they wont fly

Hi GetAssista,

Good point. In this instance all of the sweeps were coming from different bases. The target was Shiminoseki and the sweeps were supposed to come from Fukakua, Kobe, Hiroshima, and one other one so I don't think that's the issue.



BBfanboy -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/20/2020 3:09:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.
But, the Kamis each came from the four indicated bases. And, on each base, there were fighter sweeps set to go. Not a single fighter sweep flew. Not one.

What was the target of the sweeps? Note that you cannot sweep your own base, you can set the target but they wont fly

Hi GetAssista,

Good point. In this instance all of the sweeps were coming from different bases. The target was Shiminoseki and the sweeps were supposed to come from Fukakua, Kobe, Hiroshima, and one other one so I don't think that's the issue.

Shimonoseki is your own base, therefore it cannot be a target, even if you are trying to sweep the enemy TFs in the hex.



John B. -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/21/2020 8:15:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.
But, the Kamis each came from the four indicated bases. And, on each base, there were fighter sweeps set to go. Not a single fighter sweep flew. Not one.

What was the target of the sweeps? Note that you cannot sweep your own base, you can set the target but they wont fly

Hi GetAssista,

Good point. In this instance all of the sweeps were coming from different bases. The target was Shiminoseki and the sweeps were supposed to come from Fukakua, Kobe, Hiroshima, and one other one so I don't think that's the issue.

Shimonoseki is your own base, therefore it cannot be a target, even if you are trying to sweep the enemy TFs in the hex.

Wow, I always thought that meant that you could not sweep the same base that the squadron was located in (a squadron in Tokyo could not sweep Tokyo but it could sweep Yokahama). that is an expensive lesson for me to have learned. I'm sure that many Pixel souls at teh pixel Yakusuni shrine are glaring at me right now.

Thanks for setting me straight!! [&o][&o][&o]



GetAssista -> RE: Quisling! An AFB does Japan (No PanzerKat) (9/21/2020 9:04:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.
Wow, I always thought that meant that you could not sweep the same base that the squadron was located in (a squadron in Tokyo could not sweep Tokyo but it could sweep Yokahama). that is an expensive lesson for me to have learned. I'm sure that many Pixel souls at teh pixel Yakusuni shrine are glaring at me right now.

Granted it is pretty illogical restriction and hence surprising when one stumbles on it the first time. Not to mention it is outright detrimental when defending against late war bridgeheads. Alfred may know the history behind but I suspect the devs found no way to single out and restrict the base being swept from launching sweeps and decided to restrict all of them. Zero distance sweep is wrong yes, since fighters are supposed to take off and climb while in a contested hex - they will be shot down while in takeoff and climb. But other sweeps are not wrong.



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