RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov

RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (Full Version)

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mktours -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 1:36:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: mktours Hi, Hardluckyetagain. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and strategy. I have some different ideas with you but I do agree and appreciate some other ideas of you. I am interested in playing 2 campaigns against you, one as soviet and one as Axis. We could start the two campaign at the same time, same version, same house rules, so it would be fair to both sides. If you are interested, we could discuss it further. Mktours! I have to admit I have always followed your writings the most of anyone on this forum. Heck, I think a game between you and I would be fun as heck. Indeed, I am interested in playing against you because I am very appreciating your thinking in your writing, and I believe it must be rewarding to me in playing the games between us, I believe I could learn a lot from it.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 1:41:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mktours quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: mktours Hi, Hardluckyetagain. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and strategy. I have some different ideas with you but I do agree and appreciate some other ideas of you. I am interested in playing 2 campaigns against you, one as soviet and one as Axis. We could start the two campaign at the same time, same version, same house rules, so it would be fair to both sides. If you are interested, we could discuss it further. Mktours! I have to admit I have always followed your writings the most of anyone on this forum. Heck, I think a game between you and I would be fun as heck. I would love to play but I have 5 current games going and there is no way I can take on any more. My Soviet turns are averaging almost a full 6-8 hours on turns 4-10 in my games. My eyes are bleeding at the end of the day after doing as many games as I can to get them back to my opponents :( When we do play I want to just have our two games going to concentrate fully on them. I know the mettle of your resolve and I do the same thing. Thank you for the offer but I have to decline until I have a manageable game load. Thanks for the reply! You could take your time in your games. I have genuine interest in playing against you because I want to check out some different thoughts between us, and the best way to check them out is in playing the game. That said, I am not ready to play as well, I am not quite buying the new Mods of Movael, in deed, my knowledge of the game stay at 1.08.04, and I didn't study the new rules post 1.08.04. But that doesn't matter if I am to play against you, I could study them. My judgement remains that the Mods are not balance and they are unstable, but since we play two sides at the same time, that doesn't matter. So, if you are interested in playing the two games between us, we could discuss it later when you are ready to play, and if you are to insist on the new version post 1.08.04, I would need to take some time to study and digest the new rules. Kind regards! Sure, sounds like a plan. We can discuss when you are up to speed and I have a manageable game load :)

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 3:16:17 AM)
Sticking with the same game here is the 2nd unit I put in the hex making sure I meet the 3 criteria for this hex. (showing the same game so the end picture matches the units I brought. Sometimes you will get lucky and the armor & Mot units that start close to Pskov are of high quality :) [image]local://upfiles/53556/480DC9875C45444AA7D1C0F2B1732772.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 3:19:52 AM)
The 3rd unit for hex #1. [image]local://upfiles/53556/6F75B4CDF4924ED3A56AC2E13F08B1C2.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 3:22:20 AM)
Hex # 2 is the 2nd most important hex. The main criteria here is Construction value of the Division you pick to go into this hex. I don't care about anything else other than the construction value totaling over 35+ for this hex with the Division you pick to go here. You want to make sure that this is a level 2 fortification by turn 3. [image]local://upfiles/53556/1AC1438C5BC9483789E00C6357C382B0.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 3:30:10 AM)
Hex #3 is a tricky hex. You may get lucky and a Division that is close will have enough movements to get into this swamp hex. If not you will have to find a Division close and try and use rail to get one to this hex. If you aren't able to get one to this hex you will have to improvise by putting a division on the other side of the river to prevent a German crossing. Even if the Division retreats to the swamp it is fine since your goal is to prevent the crossing of this river hexside by Germany the first turn to be able to defend the swamp hex the 2nd turn. Any Division will work to go into hex #3. Higher the Defense value the better along with having decent morale and Rifle squad experience. (I base a ton of my decisions on those two factors). [image]local://upfiles/53556/5C293BBA5D264F239646CC10964BEF2A.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 3:41:43 AM)
Hex #4 is a Main defense hex. You want to have at a minimum a 22 combat strength. Anything lower and the Germans usually move the hex, they can move this too but most times this defense value is fine. Make sure to get good Morale and good rifle squad experience divisions for this hex. If you are lucky and have the Armor unit that is close of good quality then put it here. But most of the time the armor unit is worse than warm poo poo. I have had as a low defense value of 22 up to 35+ in this hex. Quality in this hex matters, make sure to get the good divisions for defense here. Plus, move everything that is going into key defense hex's by "rail". Keep "fatigue" at a bare minimum. Too many games I played as Germany I watch Soviets fatigue their units with tons of movement. Moving them back and forth across the map to key defense areas. As the Russians you "HAVE" to see the battlefield a turn or two in advance. You have to have key units in key places without having to do forced marches. Learn this and you will do well playing the Soviets. [image]local://upfiles/53556/CC71295FAC1E4141BF8EB1AB89C1FAC6.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 3:54:30 AM)
Hex #5 (two swamp hexes) Main consideration in this hex is a minimum of a defense value of 6 in both hexes. Again move Divisions by rail and move the last hex into the hex. (I reserve at a minimum 15,000-20,000 rail to move units every turn turn 3 and later for the Soviets. Best mobility and low fatigue compared to moving by foot/track) Germans should be pretty much too fatigued to move that amount of defense value the 2nd turn if they get to this hex at all. Even if they do move it they won't have enough MP's to get into the swamp with other Soviet ZOC's [image]local://upfiles/53556/50FCC43290F14DD6A50D049334C4041D.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 3:59:39 AM)
Hex #6 Another tricky hex. I put pretty much any unit of any quality to start construction of forts. Try to find a Division with a construction value of 10+ for this hex. On the 2nd turn this hex needs to be upgraded with divisions with higher construction values to get to a level 2 fort by turn 3. But for the 1st turn stick to what I mentioned. [image]local://upfiles/53556/DCE41C4B978842249EF8C31E64DDDE08.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 4:07:03 AM)
Hex #7 (two separate hexes) The hex that is SW of Pskov for 7 (2 hexes away) you want to put a defense value totaling 8+. This is just a delaying force to make Germans expend MPs. Anything works here. The 2nd Hex 7 (4 hexes from Pskov) I normally bring a big armor unit from down south if available. If not get three good units for this hex for the coming defense north of Pskov. [image]local://upfiles/53556/B5E2F723378E490BA12541C58DF43934.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 4:13:53 AM)
Hex # 8. Find digging Divisions to start digging entrenchments. Higher the construction value the better. Keep in mind you will need good quality units for the coming defense since we are beginning the defense of the Soviet union here. Our goal is to delay by forcing the Germans into a grinding war or force the Germans to find a weaker spot somewhere else. Both of these options the Germans take are a win win scenario. (NOTE** You will see me put units in clear terrain all the time in my defense. Yes the conventional wisdom is to defend in swamps, trees etc. for higher combat value. But if you stop and think about it it is easy for Germans to move through open terrain even in ZOC's**. So I put units in open terrain to build forts and they retreat to a better defense value hex when they retreat. Just something stupid I do in my games) [image]local://upfiles/53556/0109A066753B490991BD355171C7CE73.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 4:16:20 AM)
Hex #9 (brown color). Any easy hex to defend. Good quality Division and try and have over a 18+ combat value in the City. It is a key defense hex. (hex is difficult to attack by Germany on the first turn so I lowered the combat value of the city to 18 instead of the orginal 28 I had there) [image]local://upfiles/53556/9633E0187E1A4540B07FD7E9116AE573.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 4:20:11 AM)
Hex #10 (three hexes) 4th Airborne goes in these 3 hexes. One brigade each hex. These little F'rs don't route when attacked by a hasty attack (often) [image]local://upfiles/53556/084D592011984CC0AD6AC699F7E9110C.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 4:24:21 AM)
Hex #9 purple color (sorry about this error of two nines) This hex is defended by the security unit from the island. You will transport to the closet port, disembark, then load onto a train and end in this hex. It is truly a worthless speed bump everything helps. [image]local://upfiles/53556/06008EE6B2884C368C506946F03B850C.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 4:27:06 AM)
Hex # 11. Fill out all these spots with security units. Just speed bumps at best. [image]local://upfiles/53556/5B179468EBDA4EAA9BB3DCBD26ADC019.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 4:29:01 AM)
Hex #12. Use a division for each hex from 21st mech Corps. (just a side note in later turns that any Armor or Mot unit needs to be saved from being surrounded for their truck content. Only put these units in front line if you are pretty certain these units will not get surrounded. If in doubt put them in the 3rd or 4th line of defense. Lose them at your own pearl) [image]local://upfiles/53556/44E8B2CB93DC46B997FA02607DD7CDF7.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 4:30:42 AM)
Hex #13, multiple hexes. More digging hexes. Looking for good quality units with Good Morale and good rifle squad experience in these hexes with good construction values. [image]local://upfiles/53556/0A680D9BBA49432E9E6D12960AFADA99.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 4:34:13 AM)
Here is the final setup in this one game for the 1st turn with Air bases in place and fully loaded. The Northern Airbases will be in place turn 2. You may not have enough units to fill out all the spots but the main effort is to delay/stop the Germans at Pskov to buy time to continue to build the line east each turn. [image]local://upfiles/53556/C6000BBADDF54AB990F64F1C55755E00.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 4:47:33 AM)
Defense of the One hex west of Pskov on turn two in the same game. Please note that Air flew support. If you had sent your air to the Reserve as the Russian you probably would have lost this hex. You have to have air in your key sectors you are defending. [image]local://upfiles/53556/FAA5237AC74C4AB0AA9CDD67F70F690C.jpg[/image]

galex -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 6:46:43 AM)
A great post. have learned a LOT from your work. tks bro.

Stelteck -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 6:58:55 AM)
Very interesting post thank you. Pskov area looks really well protected. It is interesting because in my game against you, i tried to built a strong defense at Pskov too. And you did not even sent a panzer against it. Maybe you could give me some clue of what should i have done ? How this strategy works if Pskov is bypasses. (Like you did as german). Forgive me for posting 3 screens of what happened, since this thread is not only an AAR, but also a strategic discussion : [image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64073834/WITE%20HARD/Capture%20d%27%C3%A9cran%202017-04-07%2020.38.56.jpg[/image] Then (Here Pskov have not been attacked yet !!) : [image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64073834/WITE%20HARD/Capture%20d%27%C3%A9cran%202017-04-08%2009.50.24.jpg[/image] At this point, i had to remove troops from Pskov to defend elsewhere but it was too late and the retreat did not go well. Pskov position was not sustenable anymore. [image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64073834/WITE%20HARD/Capture%20d%27%C3%A9cran%202017-04-09%2010.26.37.jpg[/image]

galex -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 7:13:53 AM)
I think HardLuck tend to use 4th pzr group in the center the make sure a large pocket can be done in T4~T5.And use the 2nd Pzr Group come from south by train on T5~T6 to attack pskov line. This strategy makes sense because the supply line in the north is the shortest and Axis have sufficent time to take Linningrad.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 11:07:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: galex A great post. have learned a LOT from your work. tks bro. I am not finished yet but you are welcome. This may not work for everyone and lots wont agree with it. That is ok since this breeds thinking. More to come soon.

BrianG -> max toe (7/30/2017 12:04:43 PM)
your top experience units shown above seem to have a 20% max toe?

Dinglir -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 12:05:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain Defense of the One hex west of Pskov on turn two in the same game. Please note that Air flew support. If you had sent your air to the Reserve as the Russian you probably would have lost this hex. You have to have air in your key sectors you are defending. I simply can not imagine what complete imbecile would have played the Germans that way.[:)] Notice also the many combats fought before that one HardLuck links to. If those pesky NKVD's hadn't been there (or had routed somewhat earlier), I would have had more Panzers available for the final attack, and then the hex would have probably fallen (I think).

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 12:44:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stelteck Very interesting post thank you. Pskov area looks really well protected. It is interesting because in my game against you, i tried to built a strong defense at Pskov too. And you did not even sent a panzer against it. Maybe you could give me some clue of what should i have done ? How this strategy works if Pskov is bypasses. (Like you did as german). Forgive me for posting 3 screens of what happened, since this thread is not only an AAR, but also a strategic discussion : I can not go over the Strategic discussion of my strategy yet. I still have games in the early stages and if this was known could throw off my movement of units ;-} Please wait until my games get to turn 10ish + and I will give you a map of my "must hold", delay, and get the hell out of dodge areas on a strategic map. I didn't bypass your Pskov area. I saw an opportunity and took it in a later turn(plus it was part of my strategy to pull units away from this area. It all lies in your defense. Stelteck what I'm about to comment on is not an attack on you. I'm telling you from the German side of view why this is "not" a very strong defense nor well protected area. 1st you have "no" defense in depth. Blow away a few frontal units and it is off to the races for an encirclement. 2nd (see pink area I circled on your snapshot below) You are defending to get the greatest defense value but not defending the open areas that a German moves through (which is good but not the best thing in my opinion. As I said earlier in this post, I defend the clear terrain hexes to force Germans to attack those hexes or move around them in rough terrain. It cuts on the German movement since most times Germans don't want to go through terrain worse than Open. I therefore deny it from them) You are letting Germans get by in clear terrain even with a ZOC into a clear terrain the Germans will just parade through or just move the Soviet unit in defensive terrain hex (i.e. the swamp). Which then opens up more movement routes for the Germans. 3rd your units are fatigued from movement that are further east of Pskov making them even easier to attack. You must have to plan ahead of time and plant key defensive units in key places a turn or two in advance. Suspect key areas that a German will attack in and put units there. Will this always work, no. But you have to be prepared for it with those units in key hexes 4th why do you have refit turned on on units that don't need it? This is a waste in my opinion and even worse on tank/Mot units (unless those tank/mots units are close to full strength since they start to disband turn 12ish) 5th where are your units in "reserve" mode??????? This is more than likely a by product of number 3 above. As a Soviet you have to set up your defensive units turn(s) in advance and have to have units in reserve mode. You need to pay attention to the morale and experience of the rifle squads in the division. You have to get good leaders in key places. Stop building support units and upgrade your command structure. You have plenty of support units for the first 10 turns as is in my opinion. [image]local://upfiles/53556/7B41DE14C9F14E668D386090EE38CE68.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: max toe (7/30/2017 12:48:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BrianG your top experience units shown above seem to have a 20% max toe? I set all TOE at the end of turn one for the North units to 100%. At the beginning for turn 2 the 1st thing I do is again turn all TOE to 20% because of all the new Divisions that come online for the Soviets. I then painstakingly reapply the max TOE to the Northern units to 100% TOE. I pretty much do this until turn 6-8 depending on who I am playing and the pressure on a front. I then place in refit key units that may get attacked in the upcoming turns. Please note that you need to do the Support units to 100% on the 1st turn too for the Northern HQ's.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 12:59:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dinglir quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain Defense of the One hex west of Pskov on turn two in the same game. Please note that Air flew support. If you had sent your air to the Reserve as the Russian you probably would have lost this hex. You have to have air in your key sectors you are defending. I simply can not imagine what complete imbecile would have played the Germans that way.[:)] Notice also the many combats fought before that one HardLuck links to. If those pesky NKVD's hadn't been there (or had routed somewhat earlier), I would have had more Panzers available for the final attack, and then the hex would have probably fallen (I think). Stop being so hard on yourself Dinglir. You did just fine. I remember Chaos45 saying in old posts that this game is all about making the Germans expend MP"s. Those NKVD units are there for just that, a delaying force for MP's and fatiguing the Germans. Granted it isnt much but seems to be enough. Can it be circumvented? Yes that it is known it can. I really think I'm going to upgrade the defense value of that hex from a minimum of 22 to a higher value (minimum of 28) I used in my latest game. (see below picture) But yes you would have probably have taken it but I have no love affair of holding that hex. It is there just for a speed bump since it already starts as a level 2 fort and is the Hinge that the rest of the defense of the Soviet Union begins in my opinion :) (there is no Stalin or Hitler edict of no retreat. Although I do have specific zones I do on the Map) [image]local://upfiles/53556/E52F9354FBDE41AD9C6D4F76E4706F40.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 1:59:57 PM)
Another side note here. If you don't understand how units retreat in their priority I implore you to study this intensely as a Soviet. Granted it isn't always the same but the majority of the time certain retreat paths are taken over other retreat paths. Learn it, love it, live it.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 2:41:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dinglir Did you see my Air Mail message to you where I moved the U2s to in our game? Just in case you missed it here is a snapshot with the word "U2" and a down arrow pointing to the U2 factories hex ;-P Didn't want you to be disappointed in me ;) (also note the Division unit with a RED interior color. I put units in red when their Morale & rifle squads experience are over 45. This way I know which units are key in saving and try not get them surrounded since most Soviet division sux early game. I also mark units with 4+ wins with an interior lime color to signify the required wins or close to getting guards status) [image]local://upfiles/53556/87DC499B359B4ABD8E80B28B2581D005.jpg[/image]

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