RE: 1942 June 15

RE: 1942 June 15 (Full Version)

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witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 1:53:11 PM)
That hex looks to me to be east of a straight line between Truk and Tokyo. That could be because he is avoiding a known Allied sub patrol area or just because it's going somewhere else.

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 6:07:10 PM)
AP and AK unload at 600 per day. We have 25 AP's and 12's AK for operation Cantankerous Olfactory. The limiting factor is troop space & unloading, since that is the great majority of the transport need. The 27 USA Inf Div, assigned to seize Maloelap, 11,109 in troop load and 6,854 in equipment load. For troops alone that is 19 AP's. Although in separate units, about as many troops and equipment are assigned to seize Roi-Namur. It's obvious we cannot carry four assaults in one sailing. Even the two most primary targets (airfield size 4), Maloelap and Roi-Namur, require most assault sea lift than we have available. Can we succeed by providing less shipping than will unload in one day? For example, can we provide enough to unload in 2 days to the division assaulting Maloelap? That would give us a shock attack with about half a division on the first day and potentially the second day also. With the exception of 2 AK's dedicated to supply for each target, the remaining assault shipping would then be assigned to lift Roi-Namur assaulters. They will not unload all assaulters on the first day, but (as with the division for Maloelap) there could be enough to seize the target on D-Day. What do you think?

jwolf -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 6:48:34 PM)
The larger ground units typically have a lot of heavy support equipment that is not part of the combat portion of the unit, but takes up a lot of load space on your transports. As far as I know you could stretch your transport capacity by leaving some of that stuff behind. Assuming "Grumpy Nose" is successful then you could bring in the heavy equipment later.

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 6:54:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwolf The larger ground units typically have a lot of heavy support equipment that is not part of the combat portion of the unit, but takes up a lot of load space on your transports. As far as I know you could stretch your transport capacity by leaving some of that stuff behind. Assuming "Grumpy Nose" is successful then you could bring in the heavy equipment later. The equipment load is really not a problem; I have plenty of equipment lift compared to what must be carried and unloaded. Troops to be unloaded for assault on the same day is the issue. Really feeling the game-date with nothing converted to APA with their 3,000 unload rate.

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 6:58:09 PM)
You know, I just realized I made the now classic mistake: the manual says "per day" but that was later corrected to "per phase", of which there are 2 naval phases per day. Crisis averted. [:)]

obvert -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 7:17:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs You know, I just realized I made the now classic mistake: the manual says "per day" but that was later corrected to "per phase", of which there are 2 naval phases per day. Crisis averted. [:)] Good attention to detail. I never plan quite this carefully for unloading. Just try to get it all there and unload what I can in the time it seems I'm allowed. I admire the more planned approach!

jwolf -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 7:32:49 PM)
Regarding the heavier equipment, it seems to be the last to load or unload so it tends to really slow down the operations, especially the unloading part at a hot zone and especially during this period, before you have the good amphibious ships. For amph ops at an enemy base there are 4 unloading periods each turn. Are these counted as separate phases or do the come in pairs in each phase?

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 7:50:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwolf Regarding the heavier equipment, it seems to be the last to load or unload so it tends to really slow down the operations, especially the unloading part at a hot zone and especially during this period, before you have the good amphibious ships. For amph ops at an enemy base there are 4 unloading periods each turn. Are these counted as separate phases or do the come in pairs in each phase? The figures cited for the different ship types (I pasted it below for you) are per naval phase, of which there are 2 per day. The manual text mistakenly worded that as "per turn" (meaning one-day turns), but it's actually per naval phase. As for 4 unloading periods per turn, do you mean 4 per day (2 per naval phase) or 4 per naval phase? I know the combat replay shows unloading at different times but I never paid close enough attention to it to count like you have. I'm not sure how the per naval phase numbers get broken up into those unloading periods. I know they matter because if ships get interrupted by combat while unloading they do unload significantly less. This is a text file I saved with the correction note added by me. The rest is from the manual. quote: Note: In these sections, "turn" should read "phase", of which there are 2 per turn. 6.3.3.3.2 AMPHIBIOUS UNLOADING The Amphibious Unload Rate bonus applies only to ships in an Amphibious TF. Amphibious Unload rates are determined by ship type (i.e., beaching craft, amphibious ship types, or ordinary transport/cargo ship types). There are no Port-derived cargo handling limits. Amphibious Unload only applies to Troops and Cargo (equipment and supply). Amphibious Unload does not apply to Fuel, Oil or Resources. Note that there is also an initial operations bonus for the Japanese during the first 4 months of the war. Amphibious Unload may be used in two situations: an assault unloads over the beach, and amphibious unload in a small friendly port. Amphibious Unload Rate bonuses differ for the two situations. 6.3.3.3.2.1 OVER THE BEACH This is for assault unloading over the beach. ť Beaching Craft. Beaching craft unload completely in one turn. ť Attack Amphibious Ships. (APA/AKA plus LSD, LSV and British equivalents) in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 3000 points per ship, per turn. ť Regular Transport Ships. (Commissioned Naval AP/AK) in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 600 points per ship per turn. ť Merchant Ships. (xAP/xAK) in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 250 points per ship per turn. ť Special Japanese early war bonus of 1200 for all AP/AK and xAP/xAK types. 6.3.3.3.2.2 FRIENDLY PORT For Amphibious docked at and unloading in a friendly port of Size 4 or less, the unload rate is slightly different for Troops and Cargo. ť Beaching Craft. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn. ť Attack Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn. ť Regular Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn. ť Merchant Ships. Troops unload at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn. Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships.

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 7:51:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs You know, I just realized I made the now classic mistake: the manual says "per day" but that was later corrected to "per phase", of which there are 2 naval phases per day. Crisis averted. [:)] Good attention to detail. I never plan quite this carefully for unloading. Just try to get it all there and unload what I can in the time it seems I'm allowed. I admire the more planned approach! The double whammy of shock attack plus IJN response to the landing makes time much more critical than usual in this case!

obvert -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 7:58:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs You know, I just realized I made the now classic mistake: the manual says "per day" but that was later corrected to "per phase", of which there are 2 naval phases per day. Crisis averted. [:)] Good attention to detail. I never plan quite this carefully for unloading. Just try to get it all there and unload what I can in the time it seems I'm allowed. I admire the more planned approach! The double whammy of shock attack plus IJN response to the landing makes time much more critical than usual in this case! I've been lucky in not having to do too many shock invasions against heavily defended atols. I've seen the other side a lot though, and the thing that makes the most difference is hitting the target beforehand with lots of air and naval bombardments. If this is a surprise, and you can't spend weeks working them, hit them with multiple TFs, embedded BBs and naval air.

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 8:11:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs You know, I just realized I made the now classic mistake: the manual says "per day" but that was later corrected to "per phase", of which there are 2 naval phases per day. Crisis averted. [:)] Good attention to detail. I never plan quite this carefully for unloading. Just try to get it all there and unload what I can in the time it seems I'm allowed. I admire the more planned approach! The double whammy of shock attack plus IJN response to the landing makes time much more critical than usual in this case! I've been lucky in not having to do too many shock invasions against heavily defended atols. I've seen the other side a lot though, and the thing that makes the most difference is hitting the target beforehand with lots of air and naval bombardments. If this is a surprise, and you can't spend weeks working them, hit them with multiple TFs, embedded BBs and naval air. The benefit I am going for is lack of time for the Empire to have prepared and reinforced these positions very much. They all seem to have some degree of CD gun protection. I figure I will put one BB in each amphibious TF - 3, one per target - while the rest conduct bombardments on the turn of landing. Cruiser TF's will be in surface combat TF's, but available to bombard on the second day. There will be no air strikes as I think multi-tasking the limited carrier groups available will increase the jeopardy to the whole fleet. I've mentioned Maloelap and Roi-Namur, but I really want to get Wotje (size 3 airfield) in the same sailing if I can pull it off. Maybe I can't. Those three are the only offense-capable airfields in the Marshall Islands right now. Grabbing them all really reduces the grip the Empire will have for counter-attack. Mili, Kwajalein, and certainly Tarawa can wait for another sailing or two.

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 8:26:45 PM)
Here is a breakdown of the targets, assault units assigned, and (potentially) a rough shipping allocation. This would give me 2 AK's remaining to be allocated. All three primary targets accounted for, Maloelap would not unload all the first day but certainly most would. [image]local://upfiles/14248/D6575E35FB2A4ED1A17D4979F31AA5A8.jpg[/image]

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 8:40:52 PM)
...Actually I'm not allowing for the 20% efficiency penalty for combat loading so the one day unload thing is a little optimistic. This load might still be good enough.

jwolf -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 8:53:58 PM)
If you have an amph TF unloading at an enemy base right at the start of the turn (turn = 24 hour day here) then there are 4 times it will unload: early in the night phase, late in the night, early day, and late day. But I don't know what counts as distinct phases for unloading capacity. If the TF has to move to the target and then unload, you lose either 1 or 3 of these unloading segments of the turn. At least, that's what I see during the combat replays. Other than CD and base units, I wonder what the Japanese have in the Marshalls at the start. Some of your invasion forces look a bit thin, but you have to work with what you have. I really hope you pull the trigger on this op because it will be fun to watch! [8D] As noted above, you don't have the luxury of spending days or weeks softening the targets with bombardments. But will you have enough of the USN to do some good bombardments right on D-Day?

RangerJoe -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 9:04:20 PM)
If you can time it so that your invasion fleet is one hex away before the invasion, you will maximize the unloading. Don't forget to add in any APDs, even with supply they will help. Remember, why use a little hammer if you have a big one available. [:'(] If you can, bring in AE/AKEs to reload your surface vessels as soon as you capture a base.

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 9:20:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe If you can time it so that your invasion fleet is one hex away before the invasion, you will maximize the unloading. That is my practice - jump in from one hex away! Don't forget to add in any APDs, even with supply they will help. APD add horrible disruption to uits on board but using them for supply is a good idea. Remember, why use a little hammer if you have a big one available. [:'(] If you can, bring in AE/AKEs to reload your surface vessels as soon as you capture a base. I am not sure how close they will be because I am short on escorts.

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 9:23:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwolf If you have an amph TF unloading at an enemy base right at the start of the turn (turn = 24 hour day here) then there are 4 times it will unload: early in the night phase, late in the night, early day, and late day. But I don't know what counts as distinct phases for unloading capacity. I know the figures I show above are for each of the naval movement phases, and there are 2 naval movement phases per day. If the TF has to move to the target and then unload, you lose either 1 or 3 of these unloading segments of the turn. At least, that's what I see during the combat replays. Other than CD and base units, I wonder what the Japanese have in the Marshalls at the start. Some of your invasion forces look a bit thin, but you have to work with what you have. I really hope you pull the trigger on this op because it will be fun to watch! [8D] A little bit - I am counting of not too much reinforcement so early. As noted above, you don't have the luxury of spending days or weeks softening the targets with bombardments. But will you have enough of the USN to do some good bombardments right on D-Day? I just don't know but nearly the whole USN in the Pacific will be there! [:D]

RangerJoe -> RE: 1942 June 15 (7/25/2018 10:10:05 PM)
quote: I just don't know but nearly the whole USN in the Pacific will be there! [:D] Of course, at this point in the war, that isn't saying much!

witpqs -> 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 2:03:12 AM)
1942 June 16 INVADED Changsha, Sian are invested. CHANGED OWNERSHIP Molu is occupied by the Japanese Japanese forces CAPTURE Tanahdjampea !!! Overall No carrier sightings. Is this information or misinformation? quote: 20th Division is planning for an attack on Perth. West Coast USA, Alaska, Hawaii Enemy sub activity near Pearl Harbor. All convoys report no contacts. Pacific Enemy sub activity near Funafuti, Suva. Funny torpedoes again... quote: Submarine attack near Eniwetok at 125,110 Japanese Ships xAKL Ujigawa Maru Allied Ships SS Gato xAKL Ujigawa Maru is sighted by SS Gato SS Gato launches 2 torpedoes at xAKL Ujigawa Maru quote: Sub attack near Kusaie Island at 124,117 Japanese Ships CM Takashima Allied Ships SS Herring SS Herring launches 4 torpedoes Herring diving deep .... Escort abandons search for sub Our convoys passing through without contacts. New Zealand, Australia, New Caledonia, New Hebrides, Solomons, Papua New Guinea, New Britain Enemy sub activity near Brisbane. Fuel unloading at Sydney. Still only a single enemy unit seen just west of Katherine. There is SigInt about a division preparing to assault Perth. Philippines DEI, Dutch new Guinea, Borneo, Malaya China At this rate the Imperials can just bombard for a couple of months to take the city. quote: Ground combat at Sian (83,41) Japanese Bombardment attack Attacking force 2980 troops, 159 guns, 336 vehicles, Assault Value = 1674 Defending force 87589 troops, 286 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1201 Japanese ground losses: Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled) Vehicles lost 18 (4 destroyed, 14 disabled) Allied ground losses: 666 casualties reported Squads: 46 destroyed, 10 disabled Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 2 disabled Engineers: 2 destroyed, 1 disabled Guns lost 4 (3 destroyed, 1 disabled) Assaulting units: 25th Division 12th Tank Regiment 3rd Tank Regiment 37th Division 15th Tank Regiment 9th Tank Regiment 23rd Tank Regiment 17th Division 34th Division 13th Tank Regiment 11th Tank Regiment 7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion 1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion 4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion 2nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment 15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment 2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment 11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion 6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion 8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion 3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment 5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion 10th Medium Field Artillery Regiment Defending units: 61st Chinese/A Corps 16th Chinese/B Corps 92nd Chinese/A Corps 120th Red Chinese Division 88th Chinese/C Corps 98th Chinese/B Corps 27th Chinese/A Corps 12th Chinese/B Corps 92nd Chinese/C Corps 57th Chinese/A Corps 9th Chinese/B Corps 4th Chinese Cavalry/B Corps 51st Chinese Corps 88th Chinese/A Corps 98th Chinese/A Corps 38th Chinese/A Corps 93rd Chinese/B Corps 4th Chinese Cavalry/A Corps 129th Red Chinese Division 93rd Chinese/C Corps 16th Chinese/C Corps 4th Chinese Cavalry/C Corps 57th Chinese/B Corps 38th Chinese/B Corps 27th Chinese/B Corps 33rd Chinese/C Corps 88th Chinese/B Corps 12th Chinese/C Corps 98th Chinese/C Corps 93rd Chinese/A Corps 9th Chinese/C Corps 61st Chinese/C Corps 12th Chinese/A Corps 33rd Chinese/A Corps 61st Chinese/B Corps 16th Chinese/A Corps 27th Chinese/C Corps 9th Chinese/A Corps 92nd Chinese/B Corps 38th Chinese/C Corps 33rd Chinese/B Corps 57th Chinese/C Corps 12th Chinese Base Force Red Chinese Army 13th Group Army 4th Group Army 15th Chinese Base Force India, Burma, Thailand, Indochina Two more engineer units have arrived at Ledo to speed base building. Japan, Korea, Manchuria, Russia Complete combat report attached.

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 2:04:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs Here is a breakdown of the targets, assault units assigned, and (potentially) a rough shipping allocation. This would give me 2 AK's remaining to be allocated. All three primary targets accounted for, Maloelap would not unload all the first day but certainly most would. [image]local://upfiles/14248/D6575E35FB2A4ED1A17D4979F31AA5A8.jpg[/image] It turns out one of the AP is just too slow and will bring up the rear. The invasion of Maloelap will lose one AP but get the remaining two AK.

CaptBeefheart -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 2:30:16 AM)
It might be too late for this operation, but I like to toss in some naval support in the first wave of amphibious invasions if possible. I've never sandboxed it, but I'm pretty sure naval support on the beach helps the ships unload quicker (it's probably somewhere in the manual). I think Scenario 28-C has some special beach units in addition to the usual naval base forces. Cheers, CC

RangerJoe -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 3:19:24 AM)
Yes, naval support does help unload faster. So do the amphibious tractors such as the unit going in to Wotje.

Bif1961 -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 1:42:13 PM)
So what does your intel say is at your invasions sites? He might have stripped them to land elsewhere so it might be good to try to get a clear picture it is something different from facing the basic fort unit and base force then him having one or two Naval Infantry units there as well.

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 2:16:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bif1961 So what does your intel say is at your invasions sites? He might have stripped them to land elsewhere so it might be good to try to get a clear picture it is something different from facing the basic fort unit and base force then him having one or two Naval Infantry units there as well. I've been keeping an eye on daily SigInt since I posted that comprehensive picture - not hits. With the shipping activity in the general area he certainly could have brought more in by now I haven't caught a whiff!

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 2:41:33 PM)
Here is an update on the SigInt hits. [image]local://upfiles/14248/F6DFFDF3C73845B1AA093FD38B2756C7.jpg[/image]

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 2:42:40 PM)
And this is LCU's (a hit from when Tarawa was invaded). Note the Japanese unit is erroneously being picked up as Allied by Intel Monkey. [image]local://upfiles/14248/ADB6F32B9006419E82494BFA91E16F2A.jpg[/image]

zuluhour -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 4:20:36 PM)
Have you loaded, albeit poorly trained, camera equipped Buffaloes or Wildcats on your flat tops? May be worth a peek at the important landings...

witpqs -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 4:48:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zuluhour Have you loaded, albeit poorly trained, camera equipped Buffaloes or Wildcats on your flat tops? May be worth a peek at the important landings... No I haven't. I won't really have time to look before landing due to fear of KB1 screaming onto the scene. [:(]

Bif1961 -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 7:02:02 PM)
well then it will be a game of blindman's bluff. It will be a box of Chocolates landings, never know what you are going to get.

RangerJoe -> RE: 1942 June 16 (7/26/2018 7:23:43 PM)
The turn before and during the invasion, you should consider using your float planes for recon. Night recon as well to increase the D/L. Also consider reconning other bases in the area to see what is there and to keep your opponent guessing.

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