Advanced Mission Planner (AMP) (Full Version)

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Phoenix100 -> Advanced Mission Planner (AMP) (2/1/2018 1:36:15 PM)

Just wondering if there's a time estimate for when this feature will be available?



HaughtKarl -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/1/2018 1:55:35 PM)

[image]https://i.imgur.com/dKyV2hT.jpg[/image]

SOON.



Gunner98 -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/1/2018 3:29:25 PM)

Could be worse! [;)]



[image]local://upfiles/16451/DC5B3FFD80A743D0A04ACE53FBF04206.jpg[/image]



tango4 -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/1/2018 6:47:57 PM)

+1 Here.
It is definitely THE feature I've been waiting for so long. Each time a new expansion is released I hope the time has come...
I really have trouble getting in the air part of the game because there are lots of things you can't plan before mission execution, and during complex engagements it requires a tremendous amount of micro management.
For example if you want a strike mission to use a certain route to target you have to wait for it to be airborne, then edit all the waypoints.
I really feel it's a pity that we don't have at least some of those features (for example being able to plan waypoints prior to launch, even if you have to synchronize different missions manually).
Now bear with me, this is not an angry post at all. I can only imagine that developing such a tool is like opening a big can of worms. And I am definitely impressed by the support the devs put into this game.
It is just my personal opinion and one of the reason I stay a bit away from complex air scenarii.

All the best.
Charles MOULIN



Cik -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/1/2018 8:14:27 PM)

skeleton.gif



Phoenix100 -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/1/2018 9:55:35 PM)

It was a serious question for the devs. I bought this game on day 1, and have since bought everything for it, expansions and LIVE modules, without, actually, being able as yet to really get into playing it, though I keep trying, keep coming back to it, keep watching the various videos, keep learning a little here and there. And I do realise how great it is. My slowness to get to grips with it is partly because I've wanted to do less - lazy me - in terms of the micro-management. So ever since the Advanced Strike Planner has been mentioned I've thought it would make a huge difference. To my interest, at any rate. I realise it's a complicated beast, but I was just wondering if there was any time-frame pencilled in, and whether that could be shared. I ask now, because, like someone else in a post above, each time a new expansion is mentioned I get a bit eager, thinking this will be it, then a bit disappointed it's not. So The Silent Service sounds great, but when I saw there was to be another expansion I was hoping THIS one would be the ASP. I understand the urge to joke about it, but it was a question for the devs, if they are able to share any meaningful info on this function's development?



Randomizer -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/1/2018 10:36:47 PM)

Says it all...

[image]local://upfiles/29576/611239C72A744BA391FFEF107D59416B.jpg[/image]



Dysta -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 12:42:22 AM)

-Google search "Strike Planner"-

-first page results: warfaresims, matrixgames, subsim... CLOSP??!-

https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/824661

-done searching-



Rebel Yell -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 5:57:38 AM)

[image]https://thehknhaven.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/i-find-your-lack-of-reading-comprehension-disturbing.jpg[/image]



Primarchx -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 1:25:58 PM)

I know this has been on the burner for a long time. At this point your best mission planning tool remains the combo of pause, waypoints, range/bearing tool and some good spreadsheet skillz. I for one would be happy with a TOT tool that you could apply to units or attacks that would apply appropriate throttle settings to arrive at a given waypoint at a precise time or launch a selected attack to arrive at a given target at a given time if possible. But who knows?



ComDev -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 3:21:30 PM)

Your request has been noted [8D]

Please have some patience, it would be a big and terribly complex thing to make.

In your mind, what would a perfect 'Advanced Mission Planner' look like?



Dysta -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 3:56:35 PM)

I'd say it's like using a Outlook/Google Calendar. You can add, move, edit or merge some tasks to manage the window of opportunity.

Add also add "estimated time of next task -task name-" on the map info to let player see the upcoming plan(-s). As well as highlighting enemy targets with timer for when will the strike happens.

[image]http://www.slopemedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/google-calendar-21.png[/image]



JPFisher55 -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 3:58:01 PM)

The only additions to the strike planner that I would like is to tell the planes when and where to refuel and what altitudes to use for each leg of the strike.



Raptorx7_slith -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 4:18:54 PM)

At the very least we know its being worked on, so hang in there!



tango4 -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 5:07:19 PM)

I am not sure I am competent enough to say what a perfect mission planner would be.
But what I could say is what I miss the most that could be part of an advanced planner version 1.
As I said in my previous post I would really like to be able to specify the waypoints prior to mission start, and mission profile. So at least when the aircraft get airborne, I know what route they will fly, and at what altitudes. If possible as mentioned by someone else, being able to specify time on some waypoints would be awesome. Today, when launching a big strike, each time a group gets airborne, you have to hit pause, catch the group's icon on the map and edit the whole plan. I really feel this is cumbersome and very time consuming.
At least that would allow some of the work to be made prior to mission lauch, which could alleviate the workload while running the mission.
And even better, sharing a common waypoint between mission would be awesome to create a sort of "rally point" to synchronize missions.
I am really glad this is still worked on and will continue buying dlcs (even if I do not actually play them for those very reasons) because I really feel this dev team deserves support.

Thanks for asking Ragnar !

Best regards.

Charles MOULIN



ComDev -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 5:18:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

I'd say it's like using a Outlook/Google Calendar. You can add, move, edit or merge some tasks to manage the window of opportunity.

Add also add "estimated time of next task -task name-" on the map info to let player see the upcoming plan(-s). As well as highlighting enemy targets with timer for when will the strike happens.

[image]http://www.slopemedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/google-calendar-21.png[/image]


Woah...

How would that work in detail?



ComDev -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 5:18:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

The only additions to the strike planner that I would like is to tell the planes when and where to refuel and what altitudes to use for each leg of the strike.


What would that look like in-game, you think?



ComDev -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 5:26:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tango4

I am not sure I am competent enough to say what a perfect mission planner would be.
But what I could say is what I miss the most that could be part of an advanced planner version 1.
As I said in my previous post I would really like to be able to specify the waypoints prior to mission start, and mission profile. So at least when the aircraft get airborne, I know what route they will fly, and at what altitudes. If possible as mentioned by someone else, being able to specify time on some waypoints would be awesome. Today, when launching a big strike, each time a group gets airborne, you have to hit pause, catch the group's icon on the map and edit the whole plan. I really feel this is cumbersome and very time consuming.
At least that would allow some of the work to be made prior to mission lauch, which could alleviate the workload while running the mission.
And even better, sharing a common waypoint between mission would be awesome to create a sort of "rally point" to synchronize missions.
I am really glad this is still worked on and will continue buying dlcs (even if I do not actually play them for those very reasons) because I really feel this dev team deserves support.

Thanks for asking Ragnar !

Best regards.

Charles MOULIN



I see, thanks [8D]

- Display a list of waypoints for each flight
- Ability to move waypoints
- Set speed and altitude
- Set times
- Set Rally points (aka Push Points)

Would this solve all your problems?



Airborne Rifles -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 5:41:15 PM)

emsoy, not sure if this is helpful or not, but I was thinking the ability to execute a ToT for an attack executed in a single salvo by a single unit would be helpful in this vein.

For example, a Los-Angeles-class sub executing a missile attack with four Harpoons fired from its torpedo tubes will launch the missiles in sequence. The AI already automatically plots an off-axis attack for these weapons. Would it be possible for the AI take into account the time between launches and the weapons' cruise speed to plot a correspondingly shorter course for each successive launch? This could be available as a tick-box in the salvo allocation box of the attack dialogue, which already allows you to plot the course for single salvos of guided weapons. Or something along those lines.

Just an idea. Personally I think the difficulty in plotting complex attacks by multiple platforms and weapons is one the most educational and enjoyable parts of the sim.



ComDev -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 6:22:49 PM)

Thanks, I'm taking notes [8D]

- Time-on-target for missile strikes.

How would the player go about planning those strikes? Simultaneous ToT? Or slightly stacked, say 5-15 seconds? What if the target is mobile, like a ship at 30kt? What if weapons arrive at waypoints early or late? How is that handled in real life? Etc etc.



Airborne Rifles -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 6:33:05 PM)

emsoy, I think in real life an attack on a mobile target is plotted to arrive at where the target will be rather than where the target is at the time of launch. I think the AI already does this with some weapons? If the player/AI is trying to execute a simultaneous ToT attack, than evasive maneuvers by the target while the missiles are in flight becomes much more important to try to create a situation where the incoming weapons arrive in sequence and can be engaged in sequence by the defenses rather than simultaneously as the attacker intended.



thewood1 -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 6:44:48 PM)

"waypoints early or late"

These kinds of issues are way underestimated. A number of things can happen to throw the timing off. How should those be handled?



HaughtKarl -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 6:52:33 PM)

Look at the juicy mission planner from Tornado, a PC sim that came out in 1993!

http://www.moodurian.com/tornado/home.html?http://www.moodurian.com/tornado/tor/MissionPlanner.html&content

Copy and paste the code from that into CMANO; it should be about a 15 minute job tops.

--------

In all seriousness, if you only did one thing I hope it would be giving the player to plot waypoints prior to air assets taking off.



Airborne Rifles -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 6:57:13 PM)

Well, if the player decides to plot their own waypoints, then the achievement of a ToT is completely on them and their own planning, as it should be. The suggestion I'm making is about weapons for which the AI already automatically plots an off-axis attack without player input other than to assign the salvo to a target.



tango4 -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 7:18:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tango4

I am not sure I am competent enough to say what a perfect mission planner would be.
But what I could say is what I miss the most that could be part of an advanced planner version 1.
As I said in my previous post I would really like to be able to specify the waypoints prior to mission start, and mission profile. So at least when the aircraft get airborne, I know what route they will fly, and at what altitudes. If possible as mentioned by someone else, being able to specify time on some waypoints would be awesome. Today, when launching a big strike, each time a group gets airborne, you have to hit pause, catch the group's icon on the map and edit the whole plan. I really feel this is cumbersome and very time consuming.
At least that would allow some of the work to be made prior to mission lauch, which could alleviate the workload while running the mission.
And even better, sharing a common waypoint between mission would be awesome to create a sort of "rally point" to synchronize missions.
I am really glad this is still worked on and will continue buying dlcs (even if I do not actually play them for those very reasons) because I really feel this dev team deserves support.

Thanks for asking Ragnar !

Best regards.

Charles MOULIN



I see, thanks [8D]

- Display a list of waypoints for each flight
- Ability to move waypoints
- Set speed and altitude
- Set times
- Set Rally points (aka Push Points)

Would this solve all your problems?

I guess it would solve the biggest things holding me (and I insist on the "me" as other people might have other views on this).
I understand that getting the equivalent of a real life planner would probably require as much dev time as cmano itself... So my point of view is that I would try to get a first version released with the most needed features, which are not necessarily the most complex to develop. Of course, the drawback of such an approach is that at a later point you might realise that you want to add feature x or y and that the way you started coding the planner in a simple version would not allow that and would require a complete redevelopement.
Two caveats to what I requested: I am not experienced in air to air refueling in cmano and it might be worth giving it some thought.
And when dealing with fast moving targets it might be difficult to implement a "perfect" tool (but I guess this is the same in real life).
Now in the list I would add a feature: ability to use pre planned attack profiles (another time saver).
Let me explain what I have in mind (this is a quick and dirty explanation, especially given that I am not home right now and don't have access to my computer).
Imagine I want to plan a strike of a static target.
-First I would select the target.
-Then I select participating aircraft (so at this point the planner knows the performance of the aircraft: for example if my target is 500Nm from the airbase and my aircraft radius with their current load out is 400Nm it will be able to give me a warning at a later point in planning).
-Now I would select the profile (of course the default profile for the loadout would be preselected). But the idea would be to use Hi Lo Hi or Lo Hi Lo on a list so that it generates initial altitudes and speeds on the waypoints consistent with that.
-Then you click "generate" and it creates a flight plan that you can visualize with preset altitudes and speeds consistent with the profile you entered.
-Next you would graphically edit the flight plan, repositioning and adding waypoints.
-Then you would look at TOT or things like this.
-In the list of waypoints, one of them could be identified as the "push" waypoint and could be shared with other missions.

I know I forgot lots of things to make it work and that my above list does not take into account averyrhing that is already part of the current mission editor that is already great. My intent was just to try and give you a feel of what I think would be a great help in most scenarii.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this.

Charles.




ComDev -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 7:42:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

"waypoints early or late"

These kinds of issues are way underestimated. A number of things can happen to throw the timing off. How should those be handled?


Yes, very difficult to deal with these things. What should the AI do?



ComDev -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 7:46:07 PM)

Tornado was amazing, I played it to death.

It had a number of shortcomings, however. Like aircraft accidentally arriving within 5 seconds of each other on low-alt RET delivery, causing aircraft to accidentally blow up wingmen. Setting up properly spaced strikes was a huge job and could take an hour or more for even just a six-aircraft flight.

Etc.

What could be done to make a Mission Planner better in Command?


quote:

ORIGINAL: HaughtKarl

Look at the juicy mission planner from Tornado, a PC sim that came out in 1993!

http://www.moodurian.com/tornado/home.html?http://www.moodurian.com/tornado/tor/MissionPlanner.html&content

Copy and paste the code from that into CMANO; it should be about a 15 minute job tops.

--------

In all seriousness, if you only did one thing I hope it would be giving the player to plot waypoints prior to air assets taking off.




ComDev -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 7:48:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Airborne Rifles

Well, if the player decides to plot their own waypoints, then the achievement of a ToT is completely on them and their own planning, as it should be. The suggestion I'm making is about weapons for which the AI already automatically plots an off-axis attack without player input other than to assign the salvo to a target.


Hmm but then the missiles have two possible routes, one going left and one going right? Wouldn't me much spacing between weapons other than that?



ComDev -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 7:52:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tango4

I guess it would solve the biggest things holding me (and I insist on the "me" as other people might have other views on this).
I understand that getting the equivalent of a real life planner would probably require as much dev time as cmano itself... So my point of view is that I would try to get a first version released with the most needed features, which are not necessarily the most complex to develop. Of course, the drawback of such an approach is that at a later point you might realise that you want to add feature x or y and that the way you started coding the planner in a simple version would not allow that and would require a complete redevelopement.
Two caveats to what I requested: I am not experienced in air to air refueling in cmano and it might be worth giving it some thought.
And when dealing with fast moving targets it might be difficult to implement a "perfect" tool (but I guess this is the same in real life).
Now in the list I would add a feature: ability to use pre planned attack profiles (another time saver).
Let me explain what I have in mind (this is a quick and dirty explanation, especially given that I am not home right now and don't have access to my computer).
Imagine I want to plan a strike of a static target.
-First I would select the target.
-Then I select participating aircraft (so at this point the planner knows the performance of the aircraft: for example if my target is 500Nm from the airbase and my aircraft radius with their current load out is 400Nm it will be able to give me a warning at a later point in planning).
-Now I would select the profile (of course the default profile for the loadout would be preselected). But the idea would be to use Hi Lo Hi or Lo Hi Lo on a list so that it generates initial altitudes and speeds on the waypoints consistent with that.
-Then you click "generate" and it creates a flight plan that you can visualize with preset altitudes and speeds consistent with the profile you entered.
-Next you would graphically edit the flight plan, repositioning and adding waypoints.
-Then you would look at TOT or things like this.
-In the list of waypoints, one of them could be identified as the "push" waypoint and could be shared with other missions.

I know I forgot lots of things to make it work and that my above list does not take into account averyrhing that is already part of the current mission editor that is already great. My intent was just to try and give you a feel of what I think would be a great help in most scenarii.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this.

Charles.




You have some really good points, I must say [8D]

So getting a total overview of the desired functionality would be a good place to start, and then implement piecemeal.

What would the complete feature set be like?

Thanks for the suggestion on how to automate the job of generating flightplans. Loadouts already come with a default profile, would that work as a starting point?



DrRansom -> RE: Advanced Strike Planner (2/2/2018 8:03:59 PM)


quote:


I see, thanks [8D]

- Display a list of waypoints for each flight
- Ability to move waypoints
- Set speed and altitude
- Set times
- Set Rally points (aka Push Points)

Would this solve all your problems?


quote:

- Time-on-target for missile strikes.


Those would cover almost everything I would want in an advanced strike planner.

The only thing I would add to the list is:
- Show on the map which targets have weapons/missions allocated. This came up a lot in planning the mission Hit Hard, Hit Fast. I had to juggle between 3 - 6 different missions when allocating airstrikes against an airbase. Each mission was given a target set (hangers, tarmac, runways) and I needed to keep flipping between different missions to make sure everything had the right number of aircraft. I would find it very helpful if that information was displayed transparently, maybe when zooming in on the target.

If there is time to go into more detail, here are some other suggestions:
- Ability to group missions into a single event. Again with the airbase strike, say I want to hit 4 different targets at the airbase (runway, hangers, fuel tanks, control tower). Give the strike planner the ability to view the four attacks as part of a single meta-mission; that meta-mission can be assigned shared escorts and route planning. The advances above will make it easy to control when those events happen, which is a big impact. But it would be nice to group those missions together for the purposes of allocating escorts. Instead of assigning escorts to individual strike missions, the escorts are allocated to the group of missions and the escorts work to cover each striking aircraft. Grouping missions could also facilitate ToT planning and weapons allocation.

- A radar shadow map, so you can plan breaking through an air defense. This would be a bunch of work, though, useful but hard to implement.



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