Beender vs Chaos45-Soviets concede T17.

Beender vs Chaos45-Soviets concede T17. (Full Version)

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chaos45 -> Beender vs Chaos45-Soviets concede T17. (8/3/2018 8:25:32 PM)
As an AAR- do not play with random weather you will usually get snow not mud around moscow. Also IMO the +1 for soviets is required for a good game under current patch mod .11+ as the soviets have take to many nerfs and the german supply is just amazing. Setup if I remember right is- Random weather, no soviet bonus, and Full winter. We are on T6 as of right now and its the first turn I have taken screen shots. OOB as of T6 [image]local://upfiles/2370/CDF34FDC37DB462BB3765931ADA524D6.jpg[/image]

chaos45 -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/3/2018 8:28:11 PM)
Losses up to end of Soviet T6 [image]local://upfiles/2370/8E6458BF8B60454EB04F79397D74BABC.jpg[/image] Map pictures will follow as we advance turns but right now I only have pics of turn I just played.

EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/3/2018 9:29:54 PM)
Will follow with great interest, AAR as detailed as possible please! Which opening did he play and how many aircraft kills T1? Which version did you start under? Going after the OOB I guess 1.11.03?

chaos45 -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/3/2018 10:23:19 PM)
started on newest patch, and I don't remember his aircraft kills he might be able to chime in it was a lot. His opening was super good IMO better than what I faced from Pelton years ago. Beender is so far proving quite the panzer pusher. Which is why I asked him if he was okay with me starting the AAR. His opening basically locked down everything West of Minsk, almost all the northern forces, and by T2 or T3 in total almost all the southern forces including those trying to retreat towards Odessa- so basically about the most devastating German opening you can make. T4 he managed to get a motorized division across the Dnepr on the south side north of the crimea. From T6 on the game is about to get pretty interesting, turns are taking me quite some time to do on the soviet side.

SparkleyTits -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/4/2018 8:26:37 AM)
Looking forward to this! Good luck comrade

beender -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/4/2018 11:53:54 AM)
Thank you chaos, for doing the AAR. This definitely adds more fun to our game, which is already quite intense and interesting. So far, Soviet has succeeded in avoiding any major encirclement, not counting the T1 opening. In T7 which I just finished, a middle-size pocket is achieved after a series of close battles and the increasing anxiety in OKH, is alleviated to some extent. I do have some pics from previous turns but don't know which one to post. Anyway, here is the T1 airraid result. @EwaldvonKleist [image]local://upfiles/56194/4867DBCA9EAA4954A2FCA03E26F549BB.jpg[/image]

EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/4/2018 12:52:36 PM)
Top numbers! quote: I do have some pics from previous turns but don't know which one to post. All [;)]

redrum68 -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/4/2018 3:13:41 PM)
Wow, that's pretty impressive turn 1 Soviet air losses. Definitely makes me want to see more pics!

chaos45 -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/4/2018 4:35:17 PM)
T7 total air losses [image]local://upfiles/2370/62392C9CD77947E5990D9BAD4575D725.jpg[/image]

chaos45 -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/4/2018 4:35:56 PM)
T7- total losses [image]local://upfiles/2370/CCF14E9BA1D44B3FAB4B66B13E500B48.jpg[/image]

chaos45 -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/4/2018 4:36:30 PM)
T7- OOB Another Turn or two and I can prolly start posting some pictures since im on the defensive is best not to show where all my units until the game is several turns ahead. Beender pulled off a bigger encirclement than I thought possible in Vladai hills this turn but I did manage to open it so that will be a pain for him for another week yet. I will say this is a super difficult game as soviets with no +1 against a german player really knows the logistics system he is advancing extremely fast despite my best efforts. As to factories so far I havent lost anything critical up to T7 mainly just Heavy industry and some of the armaments plants you just cant save in the early game. The next 2 turns could prove critical on if I lose more industry or not as he is already extremely close to stalino area on T7---and who said german logistics were nerfed...... [image]local://upfiles/2370/4F899873B88D4121A594F89CFED8EEAD.jpg[/image]

BrianG -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/4/2018 4:38:44 PM)
if and when I post my turn 1 air kills versus HYLA I will feel quite ashamed. This is more than double my results. quite impressive.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 12:08:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beender Thank you chaos, for doing the AAR. This definitely adds more fun to our game, which is already quite intense and interesting. So far, Soviet has succeeded in avoiding any major encirclement, not counting the T1 opening. In T7 which I just finished, a middle-size pocket is achieved after a series of close battles and the increasing anxiety in OKH, is alleviated to some extent. I do have some pics from previous turns but don't know which one to post. Anyway, here is the T1 airraid result. @EwaldvonKleist [image]local://upfiles/56194/4867DBCA9EAA4954A2FCA03E26F549BB.jpg[/image] Pretty nice numbers. I knew over 6k was possible. Now can you keep up the momentum after turn 1 since the Soviet can pretty much recover from these loses pretty quickly. Good job

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 12:12:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chaos45 T7 total air losses [image]local://upfiles/2370/62392C9CD77947E5990D9BAD4575D725.jpg[/image] 8K at turn 7 is not that bad at all for the Soviets imho. I have had 11k @ turn 7 and was doing just fine with the Soviet airforce. Beender needs to step up his game on the Airplay after turn 1 imo ;-P. Sounds like a good game and looking forward to more photos

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 12:15:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chaos45 T7- total losses [image]local://upfiles/2370/CCF14E9BA1D44B3FAB4B66B13E500B48.jpg[/image] You seem to be doing just fine so far baring how many units you have in the Valdi hills pocket that was broken. But you have to expect things like this up North since that supply line there is "extremely close" to the front at turn 7 if he did it correctly. It is the Center and South that supply is stretched and you get nice breathers as a Soviet

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 12:16:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BrianG if and when I post my turn 1 air kills versus HYLA I will feel quite ashamed. This is more than double my results. quite impressive. Yes, they are but you have to play all the turns and get numbers. IMO anything over 3k is good to go.

beender -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 1:14:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: chaos45 T7 total air losses 8K at turn 7 is not that bad at all for the Soviets imho. I have had 11k @ turn 7 and was doing just fine with the Soviet airforce. Beender needs to step up his game on the Airplay after turn 1 imo ;-P. Sounds like a good game and looking forward to more photos Yeah i did no "stepping up" whatsoever. The only AF bombing by Axis was on T1. Since then i have turned totally passive and all the other soviet air losses were due to active ground bombing activity on the soviet part and air combat during ground support.

beender -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 5:34:10 AM)
I checked again and discovered there were not so many interesting screenshots after all, probably for the very reason that I failed to catch much of the soviet troops. Didn't take many pics for the "gallant parade by German panzers"[:D] I do have OOBs and losses for each turn but they are now just outdated numbers. Attached is battle of Odessa, which Soviet basically gave up but I still valued it a lot. From T7 the whole front becomes quite agitated, and hopefully I'll be able to give a better and more detailed account of the situation. [image]local://upfiles/56194/73C0EDE3E0ED4AD694F85EA728D5D6C1.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 6:27:14 AM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: chaos45 T7 total air losses 8K at turn 7 is not that bad at all for the Soviets imho. I have had 11k @ turn 7 and was doing just fine with the Soviet airforce. Beender needs to step up his game on the Airplay after turn 1 imo ;-P. Sounds like a good game and looking forward to more photos Yeah i did no "stepping up" whatsoever. The only AF bombing by Axis was on T1. Since then i have turned totally passive and all the other soviet air losses were due to active ground bombing activity on the soviet part and air combat during ground support. I can understand being passive up to about turn 5. But why passive after that?

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 6:30:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beender I checked again and discovered there were not so many interesting screenshots after all, probably for the very reason that I failed to catch much of the soviet troops. Didn't take many pics for the "gallant parade by German panzers"[:D] I do have OOBs and losses for each turn but they are now just outdated numbers. Attached is battle of Odessa, which Soviet basically gave up but I still valued it a lot. From T7 the whole front becomes quite agitated, and hopefully I'll be able to give a better and more detailed account of the situation. [image]local://upfiles/56194/73C0EDE3E0ED4AD694F85EA728D5D6C1.jpg[/image] After devastating the Russians early in the game you basically give the Soviets no consideration of defending the place since you need all the units you can get your hands on on other front areas. Once Turn 10 hits the Soviets grows by leaps and bounds and you need to be able to keep up the munchies of the Germans. If you don't you will fall behind & Chaos45 is good at delaying tactics. So now I want to see that pocket at Valdi Hills to see your munchy tactics ;-P

chaos45 -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 8:01:45 AM)
Its one reason I usually don't even think about an AAR until the game reaches T6/7 as that's when you can tell how the game is going to go. As things don't get interesting usually till then if the soviet plays the delaying action game right. By T6/7 though against a german player that understands the logistics system you have to start fighting in some areas to buy time. Example Leningrad- Vladia hills area....even in the center to buy some more time for new units in the Moscow area....and in the south like in this game you have to defend Stalino and Kharkov. Which as I mentioned he has already been a threat to Stalino since T6 which to me is abit to crazy good for realistic german logistics wise. Its also stupid that the 2 Soviet Corps by Leningrad stay frozen until T6 I think it is no matter how fast the germans are moving on the city. Still having units frozen there when the Germans at 5 hexes from the city is just daft. The game needs a better release mechanic for them than historical time since the Germans move much faster than historical if the player is good. Used to be some similar issues with the soviet forces just east of Rovno in the south where they would stay frozen unless T1 the germans got right next to them. Now tho it doesnt matter because the germans basically encircle them T1

EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 8:51:25 AM)
I have to say I always find the early turns equally interesting, especially the ideas people come up with for T1. Agree about the frozen units in the Leningrad area thing, I suppose the developers did not have super Lvov pockets in mind when creating the timetable for unfreezing. Curious, do you play with a HR regarding use of supplies in Axis armies? Logistics have been nerfed massively with patch 1.11.01, I don't know when you last played the Axis but the difference between before and after can be felt immediately, very little T2 and fully T3 onwards. quote: Which as I mentioned he has already been a threat to Stalino since T6 which to me is abit to crazy good for realistic german logistics wise. If you have historical logistics for the Axis in 1941 you also need something to prevent Soviet runaways. I remember that MichaelT also always stressed that point in his postings, otherwise the Soviets will fare way better than historical in 1941 assuming they run away and do not hold salient like historically around Kiev. From a game point of view, I prefer OP Axis logistics vs. a predecided 1941 or close constraints what a Soviet player can do. It simply is hard to make a player act stalinesque.

chaos45 -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 11:01:39 AM)
EwaldvonKleist- The problem with your thesis is the Soviet OOB is already missing millions of men from 1941, thus all the losses from those stand and fight orders are already pre-inflicted on the Soviet OOB before the game even starts. So no its not unfair that that soviets execute a run-away defense. As I posted long ago in my playthrough with pelton give soviets the hordes they should have and players probably would stand and fight but when German OOB is inflated and Soviet OOB is massively downgraded from historical the soviet player does not have those extra millions they can afford to lose and stay in the game like historical.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 7:08:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist If you have historical logistics for the Axis in 1941 you also need something to prevent Soviet runaways. I remember that MichaelT also always stressed that point in his postings, otherwise the Soviets will fare way better than historical in 1941 assuming they run away and do not hold salient like historically around Kiev. From a game point of view, I prefer OP Axis logistics vs. a predecided 1941 or close constraints what a Soviet player can do. It simply is hard to make a player act stalinesque. I have never catered to Michael T's prevent Soviet runaway rhetoric house rule. The Germans control everything on the drive to Leningrad. Doesn't matter what the Soviet does the Germans will be in supply pretty much the whole time. Supply is a non starter here and the argument of runaway is mute here. The drive on Moscow is a slow starter but by turn 10 the Germans can supply a sustained effort on a drive on Moscow if they so desire for the next 6 turns then again for 3 turns after the mud. 9 turns total to either surround or capture Moscow Again, in my opinion, the runaway rhetoric is overblown for Moscow. Only in the South and Middle south is the runaway any real problem. Then again if there is a runaway strat the Germans just move up and take what was given by the Soviets. Again this is a plus for the Germans since this gives them ground without ever having to work hard for it saving on both men and material. So in closing the run away prevention was just a tool to be used to gain favorable house rules during that time frame. I am sure you read those AAR's & figure that out. When I play Germany I love people that runaway. Makes my life twice as easy. In the case of others they don't like it because they want to be immersed in the game with combat and I can appreciate that. But the rhetoric of runaway is just overblown hype.

beender -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 7:48:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain I can understand being passive up to about turn 5. But why passive after that? Well, because I got lazy and my previous games didn't prove to me that aggressive AF bombing by German made much difference[8\|]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 8:06:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beender quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain I can understand being passive up to about turn 5. But why passive after that? Well, because I got lazy and my previous games didn't prove to me that aggressive AF bombing by German made much difference[8\|] I am not solely talking about AF bombing. The Germans have a set number of turns that are the happy turns. I can only say to use them or lose them ;-) Because the more you use them the longer those happy turns are. Don't use them the shorter they become. If that makes sense. (or as the title of the AAR is use your quality advantage or the Quantity advantage. Because if you do not Quantity will overwhelm you in the end. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it no matter what your quality advantage is later in the game)

beender -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 8:25:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain I am not solely talking about AF bombing. The Germans have a set number of turns that are the happy turns. I can only say to use them or lose them ;-) Because the more you use them the longer those happy turns are. Don't use them the shorter they become. If that makes sense. (or as the title of the AAR is use your quality advantage or the Quantity advantage. Because if you do not Quantity will overwhelm you in the end. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it no matter what your quality advantage is later in the game) I'm sure you have a good point. I didn't do them due to practical issues: after all the exhausting calculations about land units one just tries to find any reason that can justify lessening his burden[:D] Also, I was under the impression that with the NM nerf on soviet airforce it was basically rendered useless at least in 41. Apparently, not so much.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 8:32:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beender quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain I am not solely talking about AF bombing. The Germans have a set number of turns that are the happy turns. I can only say to use them or lose them ;-) Because the more you use them the longer those happy turns are. Don't use them the shorter they become. If that makes sense. (or as the title of the AAR is use your quality advantage or the Quantity advantage. Because if you do not Quantity will overwhelm you in the end. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it no matter what your quality advantage is later in the game) I'm sure you have a good point. I didn't do them due to practical issues: after all the exhausting calculations about land units one just tries to find any reason that can justify lessening his burden[:D] Also, I was under the impression that with the NM nerf on soviet airforce it was basically rendered useless at least in 41. Apparently, not so much. Ah, you fell into that one. The Soviet Airforce in the right hands is not "useless" and the longer you leave it alone the deadlier it becomes.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 8:39:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: beender quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain I am not solely talking about AF bombing. The Germans have a set number of turns that are the happy turns. I can only say to use them or lose them ;-) Because the more you use them the longer those happy turns are. Don't use them the shorter they become. If that makes sense. (or as the title of the AAR is use your quality advantage or the Quantity advantage. Because if you do not Quantity will overwhelm you in the end. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it no matter what your quality advantage is later in the game) I'm sure you have a good point. I didn't do them due to practical issues: after all the exhausting calculations about land units one just tries to find any reason that can justify lessening his burden[:D] Also, I was under the impression that with the NM nerf on soviet airforce it was basically rendered useless at least in 41. Apparently, not so much. Ah, you fell into that one. The Soviet Airforce in the right hands is not "useless" and the longer you leave it alone the deadlier it becomes. Here is my Airforce Turn 9 in my last game. Does this Airforce look useless? [image]local://upfiles/53556/EC4EFE5C092341B2B257E6E1C8688634.jpg[/image]

beender -> RE: Beender vs Chaos45- Quality of Quantity AAR (8/5/2018 8:47:34 PM)
Actually I have better proof (or disproof) myself. Below is from T8 and it took me a dozen of seconds to grab what had just happened. [image]local://upfiles/56194/FD922566F35E4BC796581163E953298C.jpg[/image]

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