RE: T7 soviet (Full Version)

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chaos45 -> RE: T7 soviet (8/10/2018 8:37:01 PM)

Ports are apparently miracle supply points.



xhoel -> RE: T7 soviet (8/10/2018 9:37:26 PM)

Pretty gamey and needs to be fixed ASAP. Btw are the losses from turn 7?



beender -> RE: T7 soviet (8/10/2018 9:57:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Pretty gamey and needs to be fixed ASAP. Btw are the losses from turn 7?


Why is using ports gamey?

No this is not a rhetorical question but I'm seriously asking. I didn't play this game for very long and don't really know what the standard is for gamey. I started a thread here a few months ago, but as you can see I even didn't know about the concept until then. I don't mind stopping using this or that tactic, but first i really need to know which ones.



xhoel -> RE: T7 soviet (8/10/2018 11:49:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Pretty gamey and needs to be fixed ASAP. Btw are the losses from turn 7?


Why is using ports gamey?

No this is not a rhetorical question but I'm seriously asking. I didn't play this game for very long and don't really know what the standard is for gamey. I started a thread here a few months ago, but as you can see I even didn't know about the concept until then. I don't mind stopping using this or that tactic, but first i really need to know which ones.


I never said you are cheating or using gamey tactics on purpose so I apologize if that came as offensive, that was not my intent. I meant the engine should not allow that (or allow it at a much smaller scale) because WitE fails to properly portray the amount of supplies provided by ports. The Germans and Rumanians never had the capacity to support a full Army Group or even Army by using naval supply, not to mention that as long a Sevastopol is in Soviet hands, the Black Sea fleet and Soviet air groups stationed in the Crimea would be able to interdict naval supply lines, something that the game does not model at all.

So all and all this is not a critique I'm directing to you, but to the game engine and the way some things work. And just to make things clear, I did not even know that this was possible so I was surprised when chaos45 mentioned it. In my current AAR, my AGS is struggling to get supplies and my units at the entrance of the Crimea are 41 MPs away from the rail lines.

Cheer,
Xhoel



beender -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 12:14:42 AM)

No don't mind I'm just a bit frustrated[:(]

This probably has to do with the supply mechanics itself rather than ports, namely, the unlimited supplies port (or railhead for that purpose) can give. It's just a all-or-none choice with no amount restriction. Either supplies reach that hex or not. Period. So if ports can provide any fuel, they have to provide unlimited amount, leading to whatever results it may cause.



xhoel -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 12:28:50 AM)

Yes that's true. The way supply works in WitE is abstracted in a yes or no way, which is not really realistic and will be fixed in WitE 2. So I guess you can understand the frustration of chaos45 in the case, which is not directed towards you, but towards the way the game works.

Anyway, cheer up, you are doing great at turn 7, unlike me [;)]
Cheers,
Xhoel



beender -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 1:59:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Yes that's true. The way supply works in WitE is abstracted in a yes or no way, which is not really realistic and will be fixed in WitE 2. So I guess you can understand the frustration of chaos45 in the case, which is not directed towards you, but towards the way the game works.

Anyway, cheer up, you are doing great at turn 7, unlike me [;)]
Cheers,
Xhoel


Unlimited supplies is surely not realistic, though in wite1 i think its probably too hardcoded to make much change.

As for ports, the designers did scale down their significance by making most of them quite small. In south only the two ports at Odessa can recover in time to help Axis, but the railline normally will soon pass them (and did so in this game). So perhaps they should take away Romanian FBD again?



xhoel -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 2:02:36 PM)

The Romanian FBD makes very little difference in the South, considering that it only repairs two hexes a turn. If I can ask, where are the German units East of Zaporozhye getting their supplies from?



Telemecus -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 2:11:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

The Romanian FBD makes very little difference in the South, considering that it only repairs two hexes a turn. If I can ask, where are the German units East of Zaporozhye getting their supplies from?

remember you can assign more Rumanian construction bns to it and increase its RRV



beender -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 2:12:01 PM)

The 10 MPs that Romanian fbd provides is very precious from what i can tell. It accelerate the progress by about 40% i would say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

The Romanian FBD makes very little difference in the South, considering that it only repairs two hexes a turn. If I can ask, where are the German units East of Zaporozhye getting their supplies from?


From nearest rail. It seems ports give supplies before rail reaches them but no longer so afterwards.



xhoel -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 2:15:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

The 10 MPs that Romanian fbd provides is very precious from what i can tell. It accelerate the progress by about 40% i would say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

The Romanian FBD makes very little difference in the South, considering that it only repairs two hexes a turn. If I can ask, where are the German units East of Zaporozhye getting their supplies from?


From nearest rail. It seems ports give supplies before rail reaches them but no longer so afterwards.


The Romanians lose a lot of MPs simply by moving but I guess we have different experiences with them. Well that solves the problem then, since you are not using ports for the supply of all those units.



xhoel -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 2:16:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

The Romanian FBD makes very little difference in the South, considering that it only repairs two hexes a turn. If I can ask, where are the German units East of Zaporozhye getting their supplies from?

remember you can assign more Rumanian construction bns to it and increase its RRV


Have tried that but saw no major difference really. Will try it again. Thanks for the tip!



beender -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 2:17:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

remember you can assign more Rumanian construction bns to it and increase its RRV


I did a test and assigned all the other 5 construction battalions to the fbd. Its RRV increased from 10 to...11.

So i think its better they are left in the hq[:'(]



xhoel -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 2:19:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beender


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

remember you can assign more Rumanian construction bns to it and increase its RRV


I did a test and assigned all the other 5 construction battalions to the fbd. Its RRV increased from 10 to...11.

So i think its better they are left in the hq[:'(]



Had a similar experience, not really worth much. What turn are you guys in right now?



beender -> RE: T7 soviet (8/11/2018 2:22:14 PM)

I finished T12 today. Only one month left...



chaos45 -> T8 soviet (8/12/2018 1:37:40 PM)

North- we re-gain control on the raid hexes...but dont think I have the CV to get rid of him as the soviets are pathetic in 1941. As an example for this game I had not one single 4 CV infantry period due to the randomness of the soviet rolls and you lose most the good units at the start in the south. So with that in mind only 4+ CV units are mech, motorized, armored...which need 16 MP to attack....good luck.



[image]local://upfiles/2370/EA25674663524E729D9FFEBADBF5BCAD.jpg[/image]



chaos45 -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 1:38:32 PM)

Center...things are looking dicey as he still has decent movement value and im basically fighting a delaying action as my CV is way to low to hold. He does lock the pocket this turn...I blame the super low soviet experience nerf as I mounted another attack vs a lone german regiment and failed since my units are still only in the 20s for exp. You can also see the green eared panzer corps full of fuel is swapping out to re-fuel than tanks. Dont think this is something that can be fixed but have noticed this several times this game of HQs with full fuel appearing to swap out.



[image]local://upfiles/2370/2EC4B29F5CDB47D29313FB9205700690.jpg[/image]



chaos45 -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 1:40:26 PM)

South---ya about the south.....is just no defense you can do vs this tactic. He gets some industry and the lagg factory, its about this point I realize he is pulling most of his supply from the ports as its very obvious they are primary targets.

[image]local://upfiles/2370/985A050085A741BFA83E43BBDE0C7D36.jpg[/image]



chaos45 -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 1:42:54 PM)

Crimea---ya impossible to defend I always try to play it historical and always fully supplied german panzers break in, in 1941.

The germans will soon be over Kerch as well....soviet units just cant offer resistance due to no skill at war.



[image]local://upfiles/2370/B8F98028A4334D068FC1BFCA9398FD7E.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 2:27:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Crimea---ya impossible to defend I always try to play it historical and always fully supplied german panzers break in, in 1941.

The germans will soon be over Kerch as well....soviet units just cant offer resistance due to no skill at war.



[image]local://upfiles/2370/B8F98028A4334D068FC1BFCA9398FD7E.jpg[/image]


You are REAL LUCKY. Why do I say that? Because you cut off that panzer on the east side of the Crimea. If you had cut off that Panzer at Yevpatorlya it would have gotten beach supply and a crap load of MP's. Now I have not done that as a German in a long time and don't know if it still works but I did this just over a year and half ago the last time.

I am sure your circumstance earlier in the game forced you into the Crimea. Otherwise I pretty much give it up except for Sevastopol. I would use the units elsewhere. The good note is that the Germans have committed a PZ & Moto to this. IMO this is great for the Soviets, very bad for the Germans. The supply past Kerch is extremely difficult unless you can link up through Rostov & normally there just isn't enough time in 41. After going across Kerch you "HAVE" to take Novorossky as the Germans otherwise in my opinion the Crimea is a waste of Panzer/Moto forces. But that is just me.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 3:09:11 PM)

Being soldier in Beender's leading divisions for sure is no pleasant experience, first driven to full exhaustion, then starving 100 miles away from friendly lines with cossacks blocking the retreat. You get 10/10 in the category "daring raid" [&o]

quote:

You can also see the green eared panzer corps full of fuel is swapping out to re-fuel than tanks.

The colour of the fuel soft factor triangle of a HQ has NOTHING to do with its stocks. A HQ that is green fuel wise can have stored 0 or 1000 fuel dumps.
Swapping motorised units between HQ because of stocks is a tactic to some degree, but the cases where you can build significant stocks in HQs are rare, at least if everything is working as intended by morvael.



chaos45 -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 6:24:08 PM)

HLYA- I dont think im real lucky and yes in our current turn he is across at Kerch and on the way to Novorossky...will see if he takes it but with the lack of skill my troops apparently have i dont have high hopes my men will hold out lol.

The southern front is just frankly to much of a secondary front to send elite units to this early in the game and the new units which basically dont gain experience short of being wiped out are about pointless roadblocks to throw at the germans- basically they are only good to bleed off MP.

Its one reason I strongly feel something needs to be done to slow the germans rolls across the south...is pretty ridiculously ahead of historical IMO...even at Moscow German supply seems abit to good to quickly. Im sure Beender is pulling alot of tricks to milk the supply for all its worth as well which is a hats off to his logistics management.

EWK- Daring raid or no.....its because the soviets are so pathetic you virtually have nothing to fear as a German player once you pull off the super lvov. There arent enough soviet units of any skill to challenge you and you can just hasty attack them out of the way. The experience drop to 1 per turn was a huge dis-service to soviet players...as even units sitting around training for a month or two get no appreciable skill increase to increase CV. An its not like a move from 1 or less CV to 2 or less CV is exactly massive as is.........it just means the germans might actually have to attack once in awhile instead of hasty attack everything esp in the south.....also maybe im wrong on the HQ swaps as I dont get the full picture just what my recon shows me lol.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 9:40:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

HLYA- I dont think im real lucky and yes in our current turn he is across at Kerch and on the way to Novorossky...will see if he takes it but with the lack of skill my troops apparently have i dont have high hopes my men will hold out lol.

The southern front is just frankly to much of a secondary front to send elite units to this early in the game and the new units which basically dont gain experience short of being wiped out are about pointless roadblocks to throw at the germans- basically they are only good to bleed off MP.

Its one reason I strongly feel something needs to be done to slow the germans rolls across the south...is pretty ridiculously ahead of historical IMO...even at Moscow German supply seems abit to good to quickly. Im sure Beender is pulling alot of tricks to milk the supply for all its worth as well which is a hats off to his logistics management.

EWK- Daring raid or no.....its because the soviets are so pathetic you virtually have nothing to fear as a German player once you pull off the super lvov. There arent enough soviet units of any skill to challenge you and you can just hasty attack them out of the way. The experience drop to 1 per turn was a huge dis-service to soviet players...as even units sitting around training for a month or two get no appreciable skill increase to increase CV. An its not like a move from 1 or less CV to 2 or less CV is exactly massive as is.........it just means the germans might actually have to attack once in awhile instead of hasty attack everything esp in the south.....also maybe im wrong on the HQ swaps as I dont get the full picture just what my recon shows me lol.

Ya, Novorossky should be held if at all possible.



beender -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 10:26:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
The good note is that the Germans have committed a PZ & Moto to this. IMO this is great for the Soviets, very bad for the Germans. The supply past Kerch is extremely difficult unless you can link up through Rostov & normally there just isn't enough time in 41. After going across Kerch you "HAVE" to take Novorossky as the Germans otherwise in my opinion the Crimea is a waste of Panzer/Moto forces. But that is just me.


If I remember right I sent two panzers and one mot to Crimea. I needed two mobile division to clear the way and the third one to storm the fort. Passing Kerch wasn't the goal. Kerch itself was because I thought that was necessary for ports east of it to function. Still, it's a mistake because later I discovered all the other ports in south were too small to recover in time.



beender -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 10:34:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Being soldier in Beender's leading divisions for sure is no pleasant experience, first driven to full exhaustion, then starving 100 miles away from friendly lines with cossacks blocking the retreat. You get 10/10 in the category "daring raid".


At least nowadays I don't leave those isolated behind and actually try to rescue them the next turn, if it's not too much trouble[:D]

These turns I do have a brave panzer facing several soviet armies alone. I happened to take a pic because it kinda illustrated the way I use them.



[image]local://upfiles/56194/6BD8D5F0B6314B1ABFF70FF05FCF3D5F.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 11:55:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Being soldier in Beender's leading divisions for sure is no pleasant experience, first driven to full exhaustion, then starving 100 miles away from friendly lines with cossacks blocking the retreat. You get 10/10 in the category "daring raid".


At least nowadays I don't leave those isolated behind and actually try to rescue them the next turn, if it's not too much trouble[:D]

These turns I do have a brave panzer facing several soviet armies alone. I happened to take a pic because it kinda illustrated the way I use them.



[image]local://upfiles/56194/6BD8D5F0B6314B1ABFF70FF05FCF3D5F.jpg[/image]


So you just used it to cut the rail line. My question is what do you intend to do here in the North? Looks like the Soviet army is in retreat and playing in terrain is to the Soviet advantage. Going any further is going to be a slugfest but I will stand by to see you capture some more trees up here and do a rescue of the PZ division ;-)



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T8 soviet (8/12/2018 11:58:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beender


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
The good note is that the Germans have committed a PZ & Moto to this. IMO this is great for the Soviets, very bad for the Germans. The supply past Kerch is extremely difficult unless you can link up through Rostov & normally there just isn't enough time in 41. After going across Kerch you "HAVE" to take Novorossky as the Germans otherwise in my opinion the Crimea is a waste of Panzer/Moto forces. But that is just me.


If I remember right I sent two panzers and one mot to Crimea. I needed two mobile division to clear the way and the third one to storm the fort. Passing Kerch wasn't the goal. Kerch itself was because I thought that was necessary for ports east of it to function. Still, it's a mistake because later I discovered all the other ports in south were too small to recover in time.



You need the big ports and need them fast :-)



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: T8 soviet (8/13/2018 12:10:17 AM)

How does Kerch work as a port? Can it link together the Black Sea and Sea of Azov zones without being on the rail net? Even if it does am I right in thinking that the German's available shipping in the Azov zone will be limited to what can be projected out of that size 3 port only?

I think this game could get pretty wild in the snow/blizzard turns - looking forward to it :)



beender -> RE: T8 soviet (8/13/2018 12:22:02 AM)

@HardLuckYetAgain

That pic is from T13 and now the panzer is relatively safe. The mighty 30th Infantry has just arrived to its south. Soviet army were in a hurry to march rather than destroy some annoying German tanks.

What is happening is pretty much what I intended to do, as secondary objective. First one was of course to cut off all of them if soviet did not evacuate the Leningrad area. Now that they are retreating, I am content with making them take the detour and not join Moscow theater in time.

@Sammy5IsAlive

I don't know why but I have this firm impression that if I am to use any ports east of Kerch, such as Azov, I have to take and hold Kerch itself. Does this rule really exist? Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T8 soviet (8/13/2018 1:37:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

@HardLuckYetAgain

That pic is from T13 and now the panzer is relatively safe. The mighty 30th Infantry has just arrived to its south. Soviet army were in a hurry to march rather than destroy some annoying German tanks.

What is happening is pretty much what I intended to do, as secondary objective. First one was of course to cut off all of them if soviet did not evacuate the Leningrad area. Now that they are retreating, I am content with making them take the detour and not join Moscow theater in time.

@Sammy5IsAlive

I don't know why but I have this firm impression that if I am to use any ports east of Kerch, such as Azov, I have to take and hold Kerch itself. Does this rule really exist? Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.


So you are experienced more than the novice level you keep posting in the game?????? Your English is really good. How long did you study? You still in Tokyo?...



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