RE: T9 (Full Version)

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chaos45 -> RE: T9 (8/17/2018 12:34:01 PM)

@EwaldvonKleist

please fully read my comment- I specifically state- "I dont think it is massively so but just enough that players of equal skill will jade the game in the Germans favor."


Also Im not advocating for every single german nerf and soviet buff in my comments. I'm proposing them as options to the patch team to help adjust to get a more balanced situation.

Fixing the bugged issues- soviet digging, Experience gain, and civilian labor will give the soviets some assistance alone. To me the next choice is then to make scenario modifications- which would not affect non-top tier players anyway as they cant pull off the super lvov...these alone I think would help to balance things alot better.

Then the second question is how far does the team want to go...if no scenario modifications and you want to keep super fast well supplied germans then you need to add more soviet buffs IMO. If your willing to slow the german advance more then no more soviet buffs are needed.

So its something for the patch team to decide on. To me the soviet bug fixes and scenario change are the least invasive fixes and see how it plays out with just that--as the scenario change will not hinder the new players at all. Also they need to fix Flak lol but its not huge in displacing balance just an annoyance for both sides.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T9 (8/17/2018 12:41:07 PM)

I have to agree with with post #149 by Telemecus. This is pretty much to the point and I think the game is pretty well balanced as it is. I would NOT start going back into the system and change things. I would look at the underlying problem that caused the whole situation.

I know everyone is missing a very KEY ingredient here. That is the action of doing HQ swaps with HQ's with full supply/fuel and attaching the PZ's to them when their current HQ runs dry.. I believe this was used in this game between beender and Chaos45 to throw it out of whack. Hell, I used two in my last game against M60. Otherwise I would not have been able to do what I did. The supply system is pretty restrictive on resupplying the Panzers noting that it took multiple turns for the Panzers to refuel when I was playing my last game against M60. I can not confirm or deny the fact that this was done in this game with beender and chaos45 but if you look at the pictures you can see the tell tale signs. I venture to say that these HQ swaps is the major culprit if not the sole culprit for why this game went out of whack. If beender and chaos45 played again with a house rule of no HQ swaps I would bet you 100% the results would not be what you see in this AAR right now and would be more in-line with everyone's else games.



chaos45 -> RE: T9 (8/17/2018 3:57:06 PM)

Not sure HQ swaps really explains the situation in the south--thus my opinion of for now patch should fix soviet bugs identified and the flak bug and do the slight scenario change then see how things play out as the #1 choice.

The other things may need looked at...Im pretty leery of the northern re-rail in all honesty as having rail all the way to/past moscow before blizzard seems a tad to quick.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T9 (8/17/2018 4:36:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Not sure HQ swaps really explains the situation in the south--thus my opinion of for now patch should fix soviet bugs identified and the flak bug and do the slight scenario change then see how things play out as the #1 choice.

The other things may need looked at...Im pretty leery of the northern re-rail in all honesty as having rail all the way to/past moscow before blizzard seems a tad to quick.


The Germans have always been able to get rail to Moscow before blizzard.



chaos45 -> RE: T9 (8/17/2018 6:01:52 PM)

I guess im just not used to the Germans getting past Moscow lol.



beender -> RE: T9 (8/17/2018 6:32:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I have to agree with with post #149 by Telemecus. This is pretty much to the point and I think the game is pretty well balanced as it is. I would NOT start going back into the system and change things. I would look at the underlying problem that caused the whole situation.

I know everyone is missing a very KEY ingredient here. That is the action of doing HQ swaps with HQ's with full supply/fuel and attaching the PZ's to them when their current HQ runs dry.. I believe this was used in this game between beender and Chaos45 to throw it out of whack. Hell, I used two in my last game against M60. Otherwise I would not have been able to do what I did. The supply system is pretty restrictive on resupplying the Panzers noting that it took multiple turns for the Panzers to refuel when I was playing my last game against M60. I can not confirm or deny the fact that this was done in this game with beender and chaos45 but if you look at the pictures you can see the tell tale signs. I venture to say that these HQ swaps is the major culprit if not the sole culprit for why this game went out of whack. If beender and chaos45 played again with a house rule of no HQ swaps I would bet you 100% the results would not be what you see in this AAR right now and would be more in-line with everyone's else games.


Nah we talked about this issue pretty early during the game. Chaos explained to me what it is and I doubted whether it's practical as a trick. In any case I didn't use it.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T9 (8/17/2018 7:27:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beender


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I have to agree with with post #149 by Telemecus. This is pretty much to the point and I think the game is pretty well balanced as it is. I would NOT start going back into the system and change things. I would look at the underlying problem that caused the whole situation.

I know everyone is missing a very KEY ingredient here. That is the action of doing HQ swaps with HQ's with full supply/fuel and attaching the PZ's to them when their current HQ runs dry.. I believe this was used in this game between beender and Chaos45 to throw it out of whack. Hell, I used two in my last game against M60. Otherwise I would not have been able to do what I did. The supply system is pretty restrictive on resupplying the Panzers noting that it took multiple turns for the Panzers to refuel when I was playing my last game against M60. I can not confirm or deny the fact that this was done in this game with beender and chaos45 but if you look at the pictures you can see the tell tale signs. I venture to say that these HQ swaps is the major culprit if not the sole culprit for why this game went out of whack. If beender and chaos45 played again with a house rule of no HQ swaps I would bet you 100% the results would not be what you see in this AAR right now and would be more in-line with everyone's else games.


Nah we talked about this issue pretty early during the game. Chaos explained to me what it is and I doubted whether it's practical as a trick. In any case I didn't use it.



Then you staggard your PZ's and did HQ buildups to keep the ball rolling? In either case if you did not use the HQ switch then there needs to be a bigger nerf to German supply as Chaos45 said. I know when I played last I stripped the panzers of everything so HQ BU's were cheaper and they still were costly at that.



beender -> RE: T9 (8/17/2018 7:46:00 PM)

Yeah this I did. Rotate panzerkorps and build up them whenever it's cost-effective.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 9:25:36 AM)

Please define precisely what you mean with HQ rotation.



beender -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 9:43:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Please define precisely what you mean with HQ rotation.


It's panzerkorp rotation, and i used it with its literal meaning: pull back one corps each turn and let them rest and refuel in the rear.

Normally you don't need all the panzers to conduct a pincer attack, if you can take the risk of losing a division once a while.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 10:02:33 AM)

That is fully within how the logistical system is supposed to work.

Is it exactly the way you chaos and HLYA mean this as well?

As I understand your comments it is solely about panzercorps rotation+switching units between them.

To me it seems 100% fine as it compensates for shortcomings of the logistical systems, allowing the player to prioritise certain units at an AP cost.

A related question is how you are able to build up stocks in the HQ, they tend to build up when resupplying units with or without HQ BUs depending on distance to rail and the rail multiplayer at this place. If you have a way to get massive amounts of stocks into a HQ without attaching fuel hungry to it, I think it is something morvael should look at.



beender -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 10:16:54 AM)

Well, they are referring to a trick called HQ swapping, of which I tend to be a bit suspicious. I probably don't understand it totally, and if later it does appear to be useful, more likely than not I'll be happy to use this trick, if my opponent allows of course.

I've no idea how HQ decides the amount of its fuel dumps. Would be something worth studying, though currently I don't find it very necessary.

What contributed more than anything else to the Axis logistics in this game, in my opinion, is the speed of rail repair. Especially I made full use of auto repair, an aspect I used to neglect. The attached pic is an illustration of my point.

So all in all, no big secret or fancy tricks. Just a fast forward rail line is the answer. I'm glad finally these Army HQs have jobs[:D]



[image]local://upfiles/56194/47D26C0208864020806BDA8E8AA1EADA.jpg[/image]



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 10:25:19 AM)

The construction batallions of the Army HQs only create a network, but hardly ever they help getting the rail as far east as possible.
You can find the formulas to calculate the amount of dumps a HQ stores in the library (see the signature), item 1.5 there.



beender -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 10:31:35 AM)

Well it depends on how you position them. In the rear they make networks, but they can also work as semi-FBD. In Odessa especially, auto repair helps fill the gap.

Good to know the formula for HQ dumps is already deciphered.



Telemecus -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 10:37:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
The construction batallions of the Army HQs only create a network, but hardly ever they help getting the rail as far east as possible.


quote:

ORIGINAL: beender
In Odessa especially, auto repair helps fill the gap.


In another game an RHG HQ with construction battalions was placed in Odessa the turn before it repaired. The next turn we found Odessa was a repaired port, its rail had been repaired also and auto rail repair had already repaired another hex eastwards from Odessa. This is while the rail network being built by FBDs was still several hexes to the west of Odessa. So sometimes it seems the auto rail repair does repair eastwards at the leading edge of your rail network - or even beyond it.

This feature has been repeated several times in tests and works that way every time, so seems to be systematically true there.



beender -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 10:55:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

In another game an RHG HQ with construction battalions was placed in Odessa the turn before it repaired. The next turn we found Odessa was a repaired port, its rail had been repaired also and auto rail repair had already repaired another hex eastwards from Odessa. This is while the rail network being built by FBDs was still several hexes to the west of Odessa. So sometimes it seems the auto rail repair does repair eastwards at the leading edge of your rail network - or even beyond it.

This feature has been repeated several times in tests and works that way every time, so seems to be systematically true there.


Exactly. My impression is auto repair does not care about whether it's eastward or other direction. There are three conditions that must be met: 1. Target hex is connected to functioning rail; 2. Target is within 5 hexes from HQ(in case of Army level); 3. Target hex is not in contact with a FBD. So long as you can satisfy these conditions, it appears they'll repair however many rail, given there are enough construction teams.

In case of Odessa, I happen to have a pic right on point. This is from T7 my game with Galex. Odessa just got recovered and I left a RHG last turn. Here is what it did.




[image]local://upfiles/56194/189C966578514404B8DBE9E0BEF3722F.jpg[/image]



chaos45 -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 12:39:13 PM)

yep figured auto repair was giving additional hex or hexes per turn if placed correctly and it appears im correct...this gets around the hex limits on the FBD...allowing quicker german re-rail.

It like I have been saying for awhile with all the soviet CV reductions over the last 2 years the german player mainly needs to do good logistics and the soviet player can do very little.

Its why the soviet player needs units with some CV....yes if the German player sucks at the logistics portion 1 CV ants work which is how the game is currently set up, and why soviets are getting smashed to the east past Moscow by axis players that can manage the logistics. Because 1 CV ants just eat up MP which decent german players have plenty of.



Telemecus -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 12:51:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beender
My impression is auto repair does not care about whether it's eastward or other direction.


I believe that is not quite true - there was a patch that attempted to stop auto rail repair being the "leading edge" of your rail repair network. I am not sure what the alteration was - but the impact seemed to be that, usually, auto rail repair never appeared eastwards of your FBDs. At least that was the theory - we can see in cases such as this it does. So I think half true, half not true?



SparkleyTits -> RE: T9 (8/18/2018 11:17:48 PM)

Good job guys



VigaBrand -> RE: T9 (8/19/2018 6:49:40 AM)

There should be no auto repair of the port.
The soviet player could defend against the port hopping by bombing them, so that they will stay at damage 99. But that is unrealistic, if you could autorepair in one turn.



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