RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (Full Version)

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brian brian -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 2:15:48 PM)

Italy can not receive the one Oil point due to arrive from Rumania because resources can only transit neutral countries, or countries aligned to your side. Once Yugoslavia becomes actively aligned to the Allies, only Allied resources can transit it's territory. And there is no rail path out of Rumania that can reach Italy without passing through an Allied hex. If Italy had a Convoy Point in the East Med, then the Italians would receive the Rumanian oil point.



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 5:02:57 PM)

Given the recent events I think it wise to ensure I understand the Garrison situation. So I set out below my understanding and invite peeps to confirm or (more likely) point out my shortfall in understanding.

Thanks!

Soviet Union - Japan

Your common border with another major power consists of every hex you (or your aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned minor countries).

So I take this to mean the border areas of Korea, Manchuria and China for the Japanese, and the Soviet Union and China for the Soviets.

To break the pact:
1939 - no allowed
1940 onwards - At least a 2:1 Garrison Ratio can see the pact broken

1940 - Double the defensive value of units in the calendar year after the pact was made.
1941 - Defensive value unmodified
1942 - Defensive value halved
1943 - Defensive value thirded
1944 onwards - Defensive value quartered

Garrison values:

- Any division (AsA & MiF option 2) – 0.5
- Other HQ-A, ARM, MECH, MTN or SS unit – 2
- Carrier plane unit (CVPiF/SiF option 56) – 0
- Other land or aircraft unit – 1

The rules mention adding your 'offensive entry marker'. Am I right in saying we are not using this?

So assuming it was 1940 the Garrison Ratio (USSR:Japan) would be:

7:3 (doubled to 6)
[image]local://upfiles/28156/BD68341655E14CF781BD3D33BDD0B15E.jpg[/image]



Orm -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 5:43:23 PM)

The counted garrison ratings seems correct to me. 7:3, and the defensive value is doubled in 1940 so it is 7:6. So USSR is not close to be able to break the pact because you always needs at least 2:1 in garrison ratio to break the pack. USSR would need 12:6 to break it at the moment. Or 4 times the number that Japan has.


You may break a neutrality pact, any turn after the calendar year following its signing, provided you have at
least a 2:1 garrison ratio on your common border.

Edit: For clarification. You always need 2:1 to break the pact. And the defensive value is doubled in 1940. So you can say that the defensive units are doubled twice. Making it 4:1 to break the pact in 1940.



AllenK -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 8:20:51 PM)

Oil Use

China - None

CW reorgs all (2.25) for oil points at Aden and Rangoon.

France reorgs MOT and LND (0.4) for no expenditure.

USSR - None

No Allied breakdowns.

CW scraps the Polish aircraft and Denmark CA.

Production

China 5
INF
MIL

CW 10
CVP-0 x2
AMPH 1st
INF
Pilot
CP x2

France 5
MECH

US 11
CV 1st
CV Saratoga 2nd
AMPH
CVP-0 x3
Pilot
Garr

USSR 8
INF x2
Pilot

Reinforcements
CW puts pilots in Blenheim - London, CVP - Liverpool on Hermes and Hurricane - Cardiff.
BB Valiant to Plymouth

France (Yugoslavia)
MILS to Belgrade and Zagreb
MTN to Zagreb.

US
3 cruisers to San Diego

USSR (Communists)
MIL to Lanchow

CW sets up an agreement to give France 3 BP and 1 oil.

Initiative

Axis 6, Allies 7. Axis call for a re-roll
Axis 6, Allies 5.

By the slimmest of margins, the Axis get the jump on the Allies.

Since they opted for the re-roll, I have presumed they want to move first.

Weather

The turn kicks off with good weather for the Axis.

Note on German production - there was only 1 sub at stage 2. I've done this and laid down the keel for another sub (stage 1) with the spare BP. Hope this is okay.

[image]local://upfiles/47730/AAC246FA8AD0420293F0F2A367B74D89.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 11:03:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The counted garrison ratings seems correct to me. 7:3, and the defensive value is doubled in 1940 so it is 7:6. So USSR is not close to be able to break the pact because you always needs at least 2:1 in garrison ratio to break the pack. USSR would need 12:6 to break it at the moment. Or 4 times the number that Japan has.


You may break a neutrality pact, any turn after the calendar year following its signing, provided you have at
least a 2:1 garrison ratio on your common border.

Edit: For clarification. You always need 2:1 to break the pact. And the defensive value is doubled in 1940. So you can say that the defensive units are doubled twice. Making it 4:1 to break the pact in 1940.
warspite1

Thanks.



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 11:12:11 PM)

Another question if I may. When I go through production I am allowed to store the two Romanian oil in Bratislava. Two more are saved in Berlin.

I have 7 oil.

I use the three original oil from the start of the game to reorganise - the two in Prague and one in Berlin.

For this turn I should therefore have 4 saved oil. But I only have 3 as one of the Bratislava resources has disappeared.

Looking at the rules - and doing a word search - I can see no reason why this would be the case (although there is probably some obscure point I'm missing).

Bratislava is not in a Home Country, but Czechoslovakia is aligned to Germany.

A major power can only save oil if it was transported to a city or port it controls.

You may save up to 4 oil points in each city or port (cumulative) you control and double these limits in your major power’s capital . Controlled: a minor country or territory that is either aligned with your major power or conquered by it

So there seems to be nothing that reduces the 4 saved points per city.

Any ideas why MWIF has taken away this oil?



brian brian -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 11:24:35 PM)

Isn't Bratislava a red factory? Perhaps the oil point was used in the factory.

Really though I would think the only possible landing spot for both the Hungarian and Turkish resources would be - Bratislava, so one of those should be used there.

I would tote up (as the Scotch-Irish here would say, a few centuries on) the German Oil totals like this

3 saved at start of turn
3 used for units this turn

2 produced this turn in German hexes

+2 arrive from Russia in this map situation, perhaps only if the Germans control Danzig or have extra CP in Baltic
but since Germany overran the Polish Navy in Danzig, I believe, the Russian oil should arrive securely

+2 arrive in Bratislava and can essentially only be saved there

up to five could actually be put into factories to create BPs and 1 has no other possible destination but saving in Bratislava



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 11:32:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Isn't Bratislava a red factory? Perhaps the oil point was used in the factory. No, the Turkish resource was used in the factory

Really though I would think the only possible landing spot for both the Hungarian and Turkish resources would be - Bratislava, so one of those should be used there. It is

I would tote up (as the Scotch-Irish here would say, a few centuries on) the German Oil totals like this

3 saved at start of turn - correct
3 used for units this turn - correct

2 produced this turn in German hexes Yes - these were used in factories for production

+2 arrive from Russia in this map situation, perhaps only if the Germans control Danzig or have extra CP in Baltic The two Soviet trade were saved in Berlin but since Germany overran the Polish Navy in Danzig, I believe, the Russian oil should arrive securely - correct

+2 arrive in Bratislava and can essentially only be saved there - correct - these are the 2 Romanian trade - but when the turn starts, there is only 1

up to five could actually be put into factories to create BPs and 1 has no other possible destination but saving in Bratislava - four were saved - 2 in Bratislava and 2 in Berlin.


Here is an extract showing the 2 saved in Bratislava pre the final production planning
[image]local://upfiles/28156/EA15424EC6134D4BAE8ED2B36B7C749C.jpg[/image]



Orm -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 11:34:22 PM)

I can take a closer look at it tomorrow. If you post a save here, or mail it to me.



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 11:38:38 PM)

Here is the oil situation ahead of the oil reorg phase. I understand that the trade oil from Ploesti and the USSR can't be used this turn, however I don't know why its showing the resource oil (German and Austrian oil) as these are being used in production.

I see there is a rule about only 5 units can be used for each oil - but don't know if this is coded. But even if so, why would the trade oil be used?

[image]local://upfiles/28156/BB60BCB26BD64E68942B7D59B1651F9D.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/24/2019 11:46:32 PM)

So let's see if this 5-unit rule has something to do with it.

No more than 5 units can trace a path to the same oil resource.

Work out how many oil dependent units you want to organize. Each HQ-I counts as 2 units, each HQ-A counts as 3 and each aircraft that takes 2 turns to build counts as half a unit. Divide the total by 5. This is the minimum number of oil resources (whether from the current turn or saved) that you must spend. This means that you can organize 2 units for nothing (because 0.4 rounds to zero).

HQ-A = 1 x 3 = 3
HQ-I = 1 x 2 = 2
2-turn Aircraft = 2 x 0.5 = 1
Other = 12 x 1 = 12

= 18 units that need reorganising / 5 = 3.6

So if this is coded this suggests 4 oil would be needed. So lets try reorganising a lesser number of units so that only 3 oil is required.

I will reorganise:

HQ-A = 0 x 3 = 0
HQ-I = 1 x 2 = 2
2-turn Aircraft = 2 x 0.5 = 1
Other = 12 x 1 = 12

= 15 units that need reorganising / 5 = 3

So let's see how many oil I have next turn now.
[image]local://upfiles/28156/F108D42CDC6C47B69F63F64683E6B443.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/25/2019 12:02:52 AM)

15 units only reorganised and 3 oil expended...

....Just prior to clicking finalise production I can still see the 2 x saved Bratislava oil.....

..well that was a total waste of time. Come Nov/Dec 1939 the second Bratislava oil remains on the missing list and the Germans have just three oil...[:@]

[image]local://upfiles/28156/81B0FC7111F84B6393AE8C49E8FC81D0.jpg[/image]



Orm -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/25/2019 12:31:39 AM)

The HQA should be able to become organized as well, for a total oil cost of 3. Well, 3.4 oil to be exact, but that is rounded down to 3.



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/25/2019 5:35:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The HQA should be able to become organized as well, for a total oil cost of 3. Well, 3.4 oil to be exact, but that is rounded down to 3.
warspite1

Yes - and that is what I've shown in post 130 - 3.4 oil needed to reorganise all units (which rounds down to 3). However FOUR oil have been removed so I was just wondering if the 5 units per oil resource rule (page 99 of RAC) was a reason. However, as shown above, this is not the case because when I've deliberately reorganised a lesser number of units (15) for 2.8 oil, the outcome is the same; on both occasions the program has removed 1 saved oil (out of 2) from Bratislava for no reason that I can see.

So I don't think production is the issue. I think the program has decided it can't save 2 oil in Bratislava - and I can't see anything in the rules to say that is so.



Orm -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/25/2019 2:07:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Italy can not receive the one Oil point due to arrive from Rumania because resources can only transit neutral countries, or countries aligned to your side. Once Yugoslavia becomes actively aligned to the Allies, only Allied resources can transit it's territory. And there is no rail path out of Rumania that can reach Italy without passing through an Allied hex. If Italy had a Convoy Point in the East Med, then the Italians would receive the Rumanian oil point.

I think Italy can transport the Rumanian oil through Bulgaria, and Greece, to reach the port Patras. Then it only requires a available CP in the Italian Coast. No need to transport the oil through the East Med.



brian brian -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/25/2019 3:26:33 PM)

Thanks Orm, forgot Patras, a handy port for the Axis sometimes. I hope the program shipped the oil then, and not the resource on Sardinia, if Italy had only one CP at sea. Italy doesn’t actually need the resource on Sardinia to max production on the first two turns, if it wishes to save the one oil and create only 2 BPs. So sometimes, they may not have a CP in Italian Coast at all in 1939.



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/25/2019 4:18:10 PM)

I received a new file from AllenK and the problem persists. The two oil are stored in Bratislava and then as soon as the turn switches to Nov/Dec, one of these disappears. Not really sure how to proceed here. The Germans are in enough trouble so I can't just let the oil go - but there does not seem to be a good (i.e. rule) reason why 2 are not stored.

Probably the best thing is to continue and AllenK and I can no doubt find a mutually acceptable compromise. If I can't get Vienna this turn then the game is probably over anyway as the oil problem will only get worse.

So to Turn 2......



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/25/2019 4:45:44 PM)

Nov/Dec 1939
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Declarations of War and Alignments: None

Japan: Land
Germany: Land
Italy: Combined

Naval Air: None
Naval Movement: None

Strategic Bombardment: None
Ground Strike:
Japan

1. A Val attempts to ground strike the Nationalist cavalry holding the west bank of the Han.

Germany

1. A Stuka is ordered to Lodz
2. Me-110C's are sent to Vienna
3. A newly arrived Henschel flies to the forest on the Franco-German border.

Do the French wish to fly in defence? From what I can see there is one French and four German fighters that can reach on intercept.

[image]local://upfiles/28156/E13611BE340C4842843DB78E8778C7A0.jpg[/image]



AllenK -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/25/2019 7:22:39 PM)

No thanks.



AllenK -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/25/2019 7:31:42 PM)

Regarding the oil, if we don’t find a rule based reason, one thing I can always do is manually reorganise one oil’s worth of units by editing the game file. Carry on for now. I’ll see what happens with the file I sent you when I play it through the rest of EoT. Can’t do it until Sunday though.



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/26/2019 5:48:50 AM)

Nov/Dec 1039
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Ground Strike: (cont)
Germany

There will be three German ground strikes. First up is that against Lodz and the Stukas obtain one hit (throw 4 + 8). The 'Zerstorers' mirror their vaunted Stuka comrades and record a 50% success at Vienna (throw 8 + 1), while the strike against the French troops on the border proves a flop (throw 5 + 2).

[image]local://upfiles/28156/DCA5B36A82744E56A24B961103ADD7A4.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/26/2019 6:16:39 AM)

Nov/Dec 1039
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Ground Strike: (cont)
Japan

The Vals also score a 50% hit rate (throws of 4 + 2) against the Chinese cavalry.

[image]local://upfiles/28156/E451E643A70142DC8A6F3DC1EF8240CA.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/26/2019 6:18:30 AM)

Nov/Dec 1039
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Rail Movement:
Japan

1. An SNLF Corps is railed from Korea to Kaifeng

Land Movement:
Germany

In Poland there is little movement as the forces there try once more to remove the stubborn defenders of Lodz. Reinforcements are on the way - although these are few in number and are infantry only formations. The panzers are needed elsewhere....

The hastily put together Panzergruppen - von Leeb and von Rundstedt - continue toward Vienna. von Rundstedt's panzers cross the Danube at Tulln in order to put the Yugoslav forces under Prince Paul out of supply.The LXXIV Infantry Corps move toward Graz in order to protect the mountain passes that lead to Munich.

South of Stuttgart von Bock's 1st Army (another adhoc formation put together as best they can) head for battle against the French salient, which is defended by the XIII Infantry Corps and the XIX Motorised Corps. Von Bock is able to put a mechanised corps - the XLVI - into the fight and this is beefed up with the Herman Goring Armoured Division that was assembling in Munich.


Army Group North keeps its two armies, but Army Group South has to give up one of its three. All formations are shorn of their armour. Their objectives remain the same despite this loss of capability.....
[image]local://upfiles/28156/F7F0CAFF50254414B612DA46AB1E835A.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/26/2019 7:31:51 AM)

Nov/Dec 1039
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Land Movement:
Japan

The Tokyo Militia are ordered west to take Tungkwan. They do this but the US seem disinterested once more (a 3 is thrown but there is no factory in the hex to modify the test no. in China's favour).

Umezu meanwhile is ordered to try and cross the Han, while to the south, Yamamoto's 1st Army is tasked with blocking Chinese reinforcement capability around Ichang.

[image]local://upfiles/28156/589AB82D5470436E8BDFD69F7C809280.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/26/2019 7:52:05 AM)

Nov/Dec 1039
Impulse: 1 (Axis)

Air Transport: None

Land Combat:
Germany

Three attacks are proposed; Lodz, Southern Germany and Vienna.

Attacking HQ Support:
von Bock is ordered to bring his army group assets to the battle - as is von Rundstedt

Combat Air Patrol:
The French are being asked if they want to bring in Combat Air Patrol over the units in the forest. What is this? I don't recall this before (although its been a while)....Even so I'm pretty certain this is new.

Well I'm going to take a chance and assume we are not playing with CAP - the French aircraft can intercept anyway so I don't see as it matters in this instance. I advance the game onto Ground Support. The only German aircraft ordered to the skies is an HS-123 which heads for Lodz.

So to assist the French decision:

The odds are currently 4:1 no modifiers (39.5:10)
HQ Support has yet to be rolled (von Bock - 3)
The only German fighters they can bring to the hex are shown, as are the two French aircraft.

Do the French fly?

[image]local://upfiles/28156/F9CC46FDDC8748A494A1D2AD40E6413E.jpg[/image]



Mayhemizer_slith -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/26/2019 8:44:44 AM)

Very interesting to see how this French attack to Germany ends!



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/26/2019 8:59:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

Very interesting to see how this French attack to Germany ends!
warspite1

The situation is so precarious that all three are important (as is the Chinese attack). So long as I can use Bratislava as a place to save 4 oil - and that I can use that oil to reorganise, the situation is not as bad as initially thought (although still bad). But of course that depends entirely on whether there is a valid rule reason that only 1 oil can be stored; because if MWIF is coded right then Vienna becomes a game-winning hex. Otherwise yes, the attack against the French could not be more vital.

In setting up as I did, I recalled that I would get a production bonus for any attack in Germany. However - because I'm a total twat I did not realise the implications for Yugoslavia (well played AllenK on spotting that). But, in hindsight, I may have gone for it anyway (with a slightly modified set up) as a) there was no guarantee the French attack would succeed and b) there was no guarantee that the weather would turn bad in impulses 3+5. Definitely a tactic to ponder for future games - plenty of risk and plenty of reward as usual with (M)WIF games.

But having crossed into Germany - and over the Maginot - the Germans may be able to hurt the French (dice permitting) in an unexpected way.

We shall see soon enough who the God of Dice look favourably on, and who they wish to impale on a red hot poker.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBhTIoIXoTI



Mayhemizer_slith -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/26/2019 9:09:52 AM)

quote:

God of Dice

He is called Nuffle. Do not make him angry, or you will get nuffled [;)]

If everything goes well, Germany might be able to take Poland and Yugoslavia soon. And kill few Frech units. During summer 1940 it means less resistace in France. But weather plays quite a bug role here.



warspite1 -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/26/2019 9:16:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

quote:

God of Dice

He is called Nuffle. Do not make him angry, or you will get nuffled [;)]

If everything goes well, Germany might be able to take Poland and Yugoslavia soon. And kill few Frech units. During summer 1940 it means less resistace in France. But weather plays quite a bug role here.
warspite1

Indeed - Nuffle can literally end the game on this turn - victory to AllenK - or make the Allied position weaker than it would perhaps often be - or a whole range of things in between!! Stay tooooned!

Momentum (just like the real war) is everything for the Axis at the start of the game. So if the attack on Poland bogs down, if the attack in France and China fails and Vienna is not a crushing success, then the Axis are in the deepest of doo-doo. To be honest though, even if things go to plan, getting through the mountains in Yugoslavia looks daunting - especially with the MTN unit they have....


The baby-eating Bishop of Bath and Wells... or Nuffle?
[image]local://upfiles/28156/948BF9B1BB5542F395187C0D2A66CCE0.jpg[/image]



Zorch -> RE: Folly a deux: AllenK vs Warspite1 AAR (1/26/2019 4:17:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

quote:

God of Dice

He is called Nuffle. Do not make him angry, or you will get nuffled [;)]

If everything goes well, Germany might be able to take Poland and Yugoslavia soon. And kill few Frech units. During summer 1940 it means less resistace in France. But weather plays quite a bug role here.
warspite1

Indeed - Nuffle can literally end the game on this turn - victory to AllenK - or make the Allied position weaker than it would perhaps often be - or a whole range of things in between!! Stay tooooned!

Momentum (just like the real war) is everything for the Axis at the start of the game. So if the attack on Poland bogs down, if the attack in France and China fails and Vienna is not a crushing success, then the Axis are in the deepest of doo-doo. To be honest though, even if things go to plan, getting through the mountains in Yugoslavia looks daunting - especially with the MTN unit they have....


The baby-eating Bishop of Bath and Wells... or Nuffle?
[image]local://upfiles/28156/948BF9B1BB5542F395187C0D2A66CCE0.jpg[/image]

Updated battle report. No mention of die rolls. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4-STR5ubYQ



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