RE: Which wargame has done it best?

RE: Which wargame has done it best? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion

Message

MrsWargamer -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 4:03:39 PM)
Actually, the thread has been conducted fairly well guys. I expected spirited defense of Gary's works and pretty much expected a dedicated support of WiF. I'd have been shocked if there hadn't been. I am a fairly big supporter of TOAW as stated earlier, it just offers so many games under one title. But it can't master grand strategy, or tactical, so I won't say it is perfect. I came into computer wargaming with Steel Panthers. I think Steel Panthers is pretty much the digital equal of ASL. Some simply won't have time or interest for anything else :) In the beginning, I was pretty much a daily hardcore all the time player of SPWaW. I like the SPCamo versions a good bit, they cover more than WW2 nicely. my main preference a lot of times is Steel Panthers III Brigade Combat. It's like playing digital Panzer Leader. Panzer Leader being one of my most loved board game wargames at the below operational level. I think Steel Tigers has a chance of appearing, and totally flopping due to expectations we are placing on it thanks to what we have in Steel Panthers. I mean, what an act to follow eh. Steel Panthers offers us anywhere and any when from WW2. Nothing can't be simulated. That's not too common in wargaming. I find the Mega Campaigns to be the pinnicle of tactical gaming. I love Battle Academy, but even though it's a great competitive design and very replayable, it's not the hardcore simulation that others try to be. It's closer to chess. But I doubt I'd like it if the board was 3x the size and the units 4 times the quantity. My vote, is still with TOAW IV (took me a while to go from III to the latest, the wallet just didn't like the idea :) ).

wodin -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 4:08:29 PM)
I know of a tactical game in development that looks like it will be THE squad based WW2 tactical game out there. Apparently it's going to be ASL that looks great and fully featured. I've seen some vids and I have to say haven't been this excited about a game in development for a long time. Been told it will be announced to public in a couple of months. Honestly, ST will have some competition, though for me it will have its pros like individual casualties, where as the other game is like ASL so half squad etc. The visual look of the other game I've fallen for in a big way. Even has a small window of close up of currently selected unit so you can see say a tanks progress whilst looking elsewhere. Plus little details like infantry moving out of way of a vehicle that's moving down a road, little things like that. Also maps look easy to build plus easy way to see LOS and LOF. I believe it will have all the depth of ASL straight off the bat. I was told look at it as ASL with a 3D graphic interface (that looks great, looks like a ASL map that's been put in a 3D viewer software, an AI and sound effects, if you want you can just see counters r both counters and units on the map. Animations are very good indeed. What I've seen you wouldn't believe this isn't from a big development studio. The main man was tired of seeing tactical games touted as ASL for the PC and on release being some way off possibly in a bit way others b t being there due to one of two missing features etc, and so has decided to finally do it himself). So with the release of two tactical games that appear to be big hitters I'm very happy. I imagine the "other" game will hit shelves first, as we haven't even had a peek at ST or even a proper game description.

warspite1 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 6:38:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 Thanks for the comments and again I will state that I am not picking on anyone's choice of what they like the best, but we are discussing what is the best. World in Flames is one of the many poster children for what I am talking about. See post #7 for a frame of reference, and post #41 for a fans apologia that reinforces post #7. That negative part said, I will also restate that I want to like WiF, it is large and ambitious, it has been around for a long time and they are still working on it, but in the end it is a Grand Strategy game, isn't it ? warspite1 What do you mean? I've read and re-read your 'frame of reference' and my totally innocuous comment on World In Flames, and the OP's initial post and I don't have a scoobie what you are talking about. The title of the thread is "which wargame has done it best?" The OP went on to say that some of the 'greats' out there are at the 'strategy end of the spectrum' - but where was the inclusion of a strategy game precluded? World In Flames is a wargame. I personally happen to think that it is the wargame that has 'done it best', I gave reasons for my opinion, and then added further comment in support following a challenge. So what is with the 'fans apologia' comment? and what exactly does that reinforce in post 7?

Kuokkanen -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 6:41:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 quote: ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 quote: I made a half-assed attempt and threw the towel. I don't see what the trouble would be. You would have to make your own equipment, but many designers do the same for later periods. I saw a Phoenician War scenario, but the guy never released it to the public. Maybe that was you [:)] Nah. Scenarios I had in mind were about medieval units clashing with modern/vanilla TOAW3 units. Stargate type thing. TOAW3 has some cavalry units with melee weapons by default, so I copied combat values for foot soldiers to make spearmen. In the end foot unit size of a brigade (4000 or so) kicked tank platoon out of the way. Ok, lol, but that is just silly, I mean, that is not a game, that is just goofing off! But even at that, those results are bogus, being based on Foot Soldiers from the 20th Century to make Spearmen is wrong, you need to Edit a new category of Spearmen. I give you an example of that Zulu Battle where thousands of spearmen were held off by 150 riflemen. This is modeled in TOAW perfectly, but you can't use the stock weapons. They weren't designed for that. And making your own category of Spearmen, or anything else, is very easy with the in-game TOAW Editor. You can blame Japanese for giving me the idea [:D] ^ Anime in question is praised by military guys because it gets relevant terminology right. Or so they tell me.

MrsWargamer -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 6:47:47 PM)
"I know of a tactical game in development that looks like it will be THE squad based WW2 tactical game out there. Apparently it's going to be ASL that looks great and fully featured. I've seen some vids and I have to say haven't been this excited about a game in development for a long time." Hmmm VERY intriguing indeed.

wodin -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 6:55:13 PM)
Wish I could say and show you more but not allowed yet. Honestly is exciting and I reckon perfect for you. It's not a future Matrix release though. Publisher unknown at moment. I'd love it to be AWNT first game to be published as it looks a cracker to start a publishing company off with! You never know stranger things have happened, I imagine. Oh just to clarify this isn't some sort of hint AWNT is publishing it, though I suppose it could be seen as a hint we'd love to publish it! quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer "I know of a tactical game in development that looks like it will be THE squad based WW2 tactical game out there. Apparently it's going to be ASL that looks great and fully featured. I've seen some vids and I have to say haven't been this excited about a game in development for a long time." Hmmm VERY intriguing indeed.

asl3d -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 7:20:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin Wish I could say and show you more but not allowed yet. Honestly is exciting and I reckon perfect for you. It's not a future Matrix release though. Publisher unknown at moment. I'd love it to be AWNT first game to be published as it looks a cracker to start a publishing company off with! You never know stranger things have happened, I imagine. Oh just to clarify this isn't some sort of hint AWNT is publishing it, though I suppose it could be seen as a hint we'd love to publish it! quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer "I know of a tactical game in development that looks like it will be THE squad based WW2 tactical game out there. Apparently it's going to be ASL that looks great and fully featured. I've seen some vids and I have to say haven't been this excited about a game in development for a long time." Hmmm VERY intriguing indeed. It's great news Wodin. I see that here there are many friends who are fans of strategic games, with large units, immense operative terrain (even at the level of states or continents complete), and the time scale is of the order of days, weeks, or months. I started with this type of games with Tactic II (Avalon Hill), many years ago. But when Squad Leader and then Advanced Squad Leader appeared, I understood wargames at this level of scale are much more exciting. Naturally, with the assistance of computers, and the appearance of Tigers on the Hunt and, above all, Heroes of Stalingrad, the dynamism of wargame has been increased. A scenario is played in a few hours !!!!!!!!

sPzAbt653 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 7:32:41 PM)
quote: Actually, the thread has been conducted fairly well guys. I like the question, I am also looking for the answer. But you did say - not too tactical, not too strategic, not too limited, and not too time consuming? Or did I misunderstand the question? My first answer was in post #7, 'thirty years on and there is no game that can do it right'. Everybody here is giving good suggestions that send me scrambling to their forums and YouTubes. Some seem agonizingly close, and people may like their choice but still admit the shortcomings. Which means it's not the best, unless the search is for the best that floats to the top of the swill we are drowning in.

ncc1701e -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 8:09:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 I like the question, I am also looking for the answer. But you did say - not too tactical, not too strategic, not too limited, and not too time consuming? May be Heart of Iron 3 or 4? [sm=00000924.gif]

warspite1 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 9:00:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer Actually, the thread has been conducted fairly well guys. warspite1 But sadly not by everyone....[:(]

MrsWargamer -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 9:08:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin Wish I could say and show you more but not allowed yet. Honestly is exciting and I reckon perfect for you. It's not a future Matrix release though. Publisher unknown at moment. I'd love it to be AWNT first game to be published as it looks a cracker to start a publishing company off with! You never know stranger things have happened, I imagine. Oh just to clarify this isn't some sort of hint AWNT is publishing it, though I suppose it could be seen as a hint we'd love to publish it! quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer "I know of a tactical game in development that looks like it will be THE squad based WW2 tactical game out there. Apparently it's going to be ASL that looks great and fully featured. I've seen some vids and I have to say haven't been this excited about a game in development for a long time." Hmmm VERY intriguing indeed. Great places start with small beginnings eh. Matrix Games grew out of the love of a single game.

MrsWargamer -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 9:09:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 quote: Actually, the thread has been conducted fairly well guys. I like the question, I am also looking for the answer. But you did say - not too tactical, not too strategic, not too limited, and not too time consuming? Or did I misunderstand the question? My first answer was in post #7, 'thirty years on and there is no game that can do it right'. Everybody here is giving good suggestions that send me scrambling to their forums and YouTubes. Some seem agonizingly close, and people may like their choice but still admit the shortcomings. Which means it's not the best, unless the search is for the best that floats to the top of the swill we are drowning in. Weeeell ya asks a question and then the threads takes a life of its own :)

MrsWargamer -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 9:11:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer quote: ORIGINAL: wodin Wish I could say and show you more but not allowed yet. Honestly is exciting and I reckon perfect for you. It's not a future Matrix release though. Publisher unknown at moment. I'd love it to be AWNT first game to be published as it looks a cracker to start a publishing company off with! You never know stranger things have happened, I imagine. Oh just to clarify this isn't some sort of hint AWNT is publishing it, though I suppose it could be seen as a hint we'd love to publish it! quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer "I know of a tactical game in development that looks like it will be THE squad based WW2 tactical game out there. Apparently it's going to be ASL that looks great and fully featured. I've seen some vids and I have to say haven't been this excited about a game in development for a long time." Hmmm VERY intriguing indeed. Great places start with small beginnings eh. Matrix Games grew out of the love of a single game. Oh I have seen a LOT worse in behaviour out there :) You guys are all fairly well behaved in this lady's opinion.

Zorch -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 9:13:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer quote: ORIGINAL: wodin Wish I could say and show you more but not allowed yet. Honestly is exciting and I reckon perfect for you. It's not a future Matrix release though. Publisher unknown at moment. I'd love it to be AWNT first game to be published as it looks a cracker to start a publishing company off with! You never know stranger things have happened, I imagine. Oh just to clarify this isn't some sort of hint AWNT is publishing it, though I suppose it could be seen as a hint we'd love to publish it! quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer "I know of a tactical game in development that looks like it will be THE squad based WW2 tactical game out there. Apparently it's going to be ASL that looks great and fully featured. I've seen some vids and I have to say haven't been this excited about a game in development for a long time." Hmmm VERY intriguing indeed. Great places start with small beginnings eh. Matrix Games grew out of the love of a single game. Oh I have seen a LOT worse in behaviour out there :) You guys are all fairly well behaved in this lady's opinion. A backhanded compliment? [image]local://upfiles/34241/2BD16E2F54CB47D1860B9F4F9237C860.gif[/image]

MrsWargamer -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 9:13:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: asl3d quote: ORIGINAL: wodin Wish I could say and show you more but not allowed yet. Honestly is exciting and I reckon perfect for you. It's not a future Matrix release though. Publisher unknown at moment. I'd love it to be AWNT first game to be published as it looks a cracker to start a publishing company off with! You never know stranger things have happened, I imagine. Oh just to clarify this isn't some sort of hint AWNT is publishing it, though I suppose it could be seen as a hint we'd love to publish it! quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer "I know of a tactical game in development that looks like it will be THE squad based WW2 tactical game out there. Apparently it's going to be ASL that looks great and fully featured. I've seen some vids and I have to say haven't been this excited about a game in development for a long time." Hmmm VERY intriguing indeed. It's great news Wodin. I see that here there are many friends who are fans of strategic games, with large units, immense operative terrain (even at the level of states or continents complete), and the time scale is of the order of days, weeks, or months. I started with this type of games with Tactic II (Avalon Hill), many years ago. But when Squad Leader and then Advanced Squad Leader appeared, I understood wargames at this level of scale are much more exciting. Naturally, with the assistance of computers, and the appearance of Tigers on the Hunt and, above all, Heroes of Stalingrad, the dynamism of wargame has been increased. A scenario is played in a few hours !!!!!!!! I was pondering Heroes of Stalingrad back during the D-Day sale, it got beat out by TOAW IV

Kuokkanen -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 9:29:10 PM)
1 more war game that is pretty darn good: Jagged Alliance 2 Gold. Reinforced with mods, that game is pretty darn close to the ultimate squad scale war game. Can you name me a game that does it better?

Michael T -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/20/2019 9:33:54 PM)
quote: I know of a tactical game in development that looks like it will be THE squad based WW2 tactical game out there. Apparently it's going to be ASL that looks great and fully featured. I've seen some vids and I have to say haven't been this excited about a game in development for a long time. Please let it be that it has multiplayer mode. Via online or PBEM play.

sPzAbt653 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/21/2019 12:48:36 AM)
quote: May be Heart of Iron 3 or 4? Do you have these ? I do not, but I got the HOI4 Demo and tried it for a bit. I'd like to know what you think. I found Strategic Command[3] to be a better game. HOI seemed more of a 'rule learning asset management' game. But wow, watch the YouTubes on that game ... them dudes are serious, they get out the multiple monitors and com-links and call for pizza delivery! I was impressed with the HOI map - the zoom levels are sweet - but it doesn't go far enough in detail or scale for a real war game. Unless that is a feature not available in Demo Version? EDIT: By the way, how did we make it 99 posts without a mention of HOI for Best Ever? [I guess because it is not!]

warspite1 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/21/2019 3:59:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 By the way, how did we make it 99 posts without a mention of..... warspite1 By the way, how did we make it 108 posts without you having the basic courtesy to respond to my post 93?

sPzAbt653 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/21/2019 2:31:16 PM)
I'm taking time out of every day to review nominations in an unbiased way, and then post a few quick facts so that we can move on to the next. I read your first post, reviewed your nomination, and posted the facts. Basic Courtesy ends there. I haven't even read your other posts because there is no need. You can argue the sky is green, I only need to tell you once that it is not. But let's give you an easy out - World in Flames is the best game ever, it sits atop a mountain on its own, it cannot be improved upon, and no other game can do any better. No need to respond, you have won!

warspite1 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/21/2019 4:49:18 PM)
Thank you for that mature response. If you enter into a debate with someone then the polite thing would be to continue that debate when asked a question - especially when the question is posed on the back of a snide comment. This has nothing to do with winning � and everything to do with simply making a case for our own nominations � but the fact you see this in those terms says quite a lot. You said: quote: I'm not against peoples choices�... It's that when people point out what they think is the game that has 'done it best' is one that obviously doesn't�. So effectively you are right in all things? And then the equally self-important: quote: I read your first post, reviewed your nomination, and posted the facts (my italics for emphasis). So what? You are the final arbiter on what is and isn�t best? and you really don�t realise that whether, for example, someone finds an editor to be vital/of no importance, then that is an opinion and not a fact? You then following that up with the disingenuous quote: I was not commenting on anyone's opinion, Er...okay But the real doozy was the beginning of that post: quote: and again I will state that I am not picking on anyone's choice of what they like the best, but we are discussing what is the best So anyone who thinks a game is the best because they like a game best is wrong? To you, liking a game has no part in whether you think it the best? How does that jive with someone�s personal opinion? So what? You expect someone to say Yes I�ve tried WITP-AE but couldn�t get on with it, the game mechanics simply weren�t fun, the interface is betraying it�s age and some of the data appears very small on screen � not good for my eyesight. Oh and if it wasn�t for the helpful people on the forum I wouldn�t even have got anywhere as the manual is really not good. But despite all that I would say it is the best. I mean really what the hell?

asl3d -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/21/2019 5:07:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer quote: ORIGINAL: asl3d quote: ORIGINAL: wodin Wish I could say and show you more but not allowed yet. Honestly is exciting and I reckon perfect for you. It's not a future Matrix release though. Publisher unknown at moment. I'd love it to be AWNT first game to be published as it looks a cracker to start a publishing company off with! You never know stranger things have happened, I imagine. Oh just to clarify this isn't some sort of hint AWNT is publishing it, though I suppose it could be seen as a hint we'd love to publish it! quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer "I know of a tactical game in development that looks like it will be THE squad based WW2 tactical game out there. Apparently it's going to be ASL that looks great and fully featured. I've seen some vids and I have to say haven't been this excited about a game in development for a long time." Hmmm VERY intriguing indeed. It's great news Wodin. I see that here there are many friends who are fans of strategic games, with large units, immense operative terrain (even at the level of states or continents complete), and the time scale is of the order of days, weeks, or months. I started with this type of games with Tactic II (Avalon Hill), many years ago. But when Squad Leader and then Advanced Squad Leader appeared, I understood wargames at this level of scale are much more exciting. Naturally, with the assistance of computers, and the appearance of Tigers on the Hunt and, above all, Heroes of Stalingrad, the dynamism of wargame has been increased. A scenario is played in a few hours !!!!!!!! I was pondering Heroes of Stalingrad back during the D-Day sale, it got beat out by TOAW IV Well MrsWargamer, don't worry. Even the best Squad Leaders make unexplainable mistakes. It's the, old and known, stress of pre-shop. Matrix Games is a lot guilty for all this. But, you're still in time to end your remorse and buy Heroes of Stalingrad. It's important that you remain at peace with your conscience...

wodin -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/21/2019 5:34:48 PM)
The big killer for me with LnL Stalingrad was the spotting mechanic. Not being able to do recon by fire and constantly having to re=spot before you can shoot ruined the game for me. It in effect stops you from doing the main German tactic used in Stalingrad. That's firing on likely positions to suppress any enemy whilst assault group moves up. Baffled me why you'd design a Stalingrad game where a major game mechanic actually stops you from using historical German tactics used in the actual fighting with in the city.

asl3d -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/21/2019 7:47:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin The big killer for me with LnL Stalingrad was the spotting mechanic. Not being able to do recon by fire and constantly having to re=spot before you can shoot ruined the game for me. It in effect stops you from doing the main German tactic used in Stalingrad. That's firing on likely positions to suppress any enemy whilst assault group moves up. Baffled me why you'd design a Stalingrad game where a major game mechanic actually stops you from using historical German tactics used in the actual fighting with in the city. Yes, you're right. I almost didn't use the artillery fire onboard with the help of spotters. I only use the mortars over vehicles and when they have direct LOS over their target. But this isn't a big problem, at least in the real battle in Stalingrad. The Soviets discovered that if their front line came very close to the German front line, the German artillery couldn't fire at them if they didn't want to cause casualties on their own comrades with "friendly fire." The Russians so advanced their lines that there were units of one side on the first floor of one building and units of the other side on the ground floor, for example. The key in Stalingrad is the bravery of the infantry, hand to hand, and in this situation the Soviets managed to level the game board ....

jack54 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/21/2019 9:21:55 PM)
I'm going to give a shout out to Command:MANO. The size and detail of the data base is staggering. There's an editor so plenty of community created scenarios. The map is the whole globe including detained ocean depths. Real time is not my preference but IMHO Command does it right. Edit: I forgot to mention one of my favorite ideas... Command Live ...scenarios involving today's hot-spots.

Chickenboy -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/21/2019 10:19:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Yes I�ve tried WITP-AE ... I would say it is the best. I hope you don't mind my editing your commentary for brevity. I'm glad you've finally come around to my point of view after all these years mate. [sm=00000436.gif]

Zorch -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/21/2019 10:31:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Yes I�ve tried WITP-AE ... I would say it is the best. I hope you don't mind my editing your commentary for brevity. I'm glad you've finally come around to my point of view after all these years mate. [sm=00000436.gif] +1

sPzAbt653 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/22/2019 10:48:57 AM)
Command: Modern Air / Naval Operations - if it is the best for Air and Naval Ops, what would be neat would be to add something similar to something like TOAW, then there would be a best of all three ops in one game. My experience with Air games is limited to Richthofen's war and [what was that Avalon Hill game with round air counters, it was all about the air war over western Europe], and my Naval experience is limited to Wooden Ships and Iron Men. So I have little to base an opinion on, and nothing recent other than Strategic Command and TOAW [both would not be good models for Air Nor Naval ops].

wodin -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/22/2019 3:00:33 PM)
I'm talking about spotting infantry here not Arty spotting.

asl3d -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/22/2019 5:18:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin I'm talking about spotting infantry here not Arty spotting. Ok, I understand. I guess it's a way to simulate the ASL "Concealment" concept. It's not the same, it's clear, but it's a way of simulating that the units are protected, not exposed and covered. You know who's there but the unit it's covered and you don't see it well. ASL still allows it to fire at the units with "Concealment" though with a heavy DRM, and here, in Heroes of Stalingrad, shooting is simply not allowed. The unit must first expose itself, get out of its protection. Well, it's not that bad either. Remember that one of the classic tactics in ASL is to try that the greater number of your units win the "Concealment." It's logical. Men aren't Superman and they always try to take cover and expose themselves as little as possible. Here, in Heroes of Stalingrad, the "Concealment" is given directly to you. The mechanics are simpler but not absurd. I don't defend it. Nor does it completely convince me. I just try to explain and understand it. But I think it's not a critical or fatal error. You can win any scenario without considering this "handicap."

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.046875