RE: Which wargame has done it best?

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Zovs -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/22/2019 5:32:43 PM)
Technically the way ASL uses concealment is that any fire into a ‘?’ Hex is halved as area fire, not any DRM. DRMs are terrain based for all units. So for example if you had a 16 firepower attack against a ‘?’ hex it would first be halved to 8 and then any other DRMs, so +2/3 for wooden/stone building or +1 for woods or height advantage and then any leadership you may have, say a -1/2 leader.

Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/22/2019 6:26:50 PM)
War in the Pacific-Admirals Edition. But hard to get it to run on win10.

ncc1701e -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/22/2019 6:45:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89 War in the Pacific-Admirals Edition. But hard to get it to run on win10. An upvote for a version 2? [;)]

ncc1701e -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/22/2019 6:56:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 quote: May be Heart of Iron 3 or 4? Do you have these ? I do not, but I got the HOI4 Demo and tried it for a bit. I'd like to know what you think. I found Strategic Command[3] to be a better game. HOI seemed more of a 'rule learning asset management' game. But wow, watch the YouTubes on that game ... them dudes are serious, they get out the multiple monitors and com-links and call for pizza delivery! I was impressed with the HOI map - the zoom levels are sweet - but it doesn't go far enough in detail or scale for a real war game. Unless that is a feature not available in Demo Version? EDIT: By the way, how did we make it 99 posts without a mention of HOI for Best Ever? [I guess because it is not!] I have HOI3 but not HOI4. The years between 1936 and 1939 are playable. But, after I have difficulties to follow all the troops / ships / air fleets to move (this is pausable real time). I often forget plenty of things and it makes me angry. Combat model give some strange results. SC3 is cool. CEAW was not too bad and it has oil and manpower management. Looking at Warplan right now, ressources are taken into account there.

asl3d -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/22/2019 7:03:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs Technically the way ASL uses concealment is that any fire into a ‘?’ Hex is halved as area fire, not any DRM. DRMs are terrain based for all units. So for example if you had a 16 firepower attack against a ‘?’ hex it would first be halved to 8 and then any other DRMs, so +2/3 for wooden/stone building or +1 for woods or height advantage and then any leadership you may have, say a -1/2 leader. Absolutely agree. In addition to halving the attacking FP (I do not know if a DRM is worse than dividing the FP by two?), also the "?" counter prevents the unit or stack under the "?" counter from being examined. It is clear that it is not the same solution as in Heroes of Stalingrad, but I think we can assume that it is an equivalent solution. Neither worse nor better.

Zovs -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/22/2019 8:45:58 PM)
ASL, positive DRMs is bad for attacker good for defender while negative DRMs are good for the attacker and bad for the defender.

sPzAbt653 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/22/2019 10:32:22 PM)
quote: SC3 is cool. CEAW was not too bad and it has oil and manpower management. Looking at Warplan right now, ressources are taken into account there. For me CEaW and SC3 each had good and bad points, so I am also watching Warplan to see how it looks, but after CEaW and SC3 I'm not interested in paying for any more games until I know what is going on.

Zorch -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 10:45:12 AM)
Best? I don't know about 'best', but the most fun I had was playing Chris Crawford's Eastern Front on my Atari 800. It was ahead of its time, like his other games. It would be nice if someone would remake Patton vs Rommel and Balance of Power.

MrsWargamer -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 2:24:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: larrybush Is there a Matrix Games hall of fame? A few titles mentioned here should be in it. Yes, I think that should exist too.

zakblood -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 2:33:18 PM)
nothing stopping anyone to make one, and if it takes off, can soon sticky it

Chickenboy -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 2:42:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zorch Best? I don't know about 'best', but the most fun I had was playing Chris Crawford's Eastern Front on my Atari 800. Really? What about that primitive tech was so compelling?

Zorch -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 2:48:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy quote: ORIGINAL: Zorch Best? I don't know about 'best', but the most fun I had was playing Chris Crawford's Eastern Front on my Atari 800. Really? What about that primitive tech was so compelling? There was nothing like it then. It only seems primitive now, as today's games will seem in 35 years.

Kuokkanen -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 5:27:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zorch quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy quote: ORIGINAL: Zorch Best? I don't know about 'best', but the most fun I had was playing Chris Crawford's Eastern Front on my Atari 800. Really? What about that primitive tech was so compelling? There was nothing like it then. It only seems primitive now, as today's games will seem in 35 years. Game in question has nostalgia bonus for Zorch. Just yesterday I read about it, written by veteran Finnish game reviewer with +30 years of experience (respect for him). For him one of the greatest games is Dungeon Master, but only because of the nostalgia bonus. For his son that game is Legend of Grimrock. For MrsWargamer The Game is Steel Panthers. Just try to convince her to take 8-bit Eastern Front seriously. I promise it's useless.

asl3d -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 7:17:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs ASL, positive DRMs is bad for attacker good for defender while negative DRMs are good for the attacker and bad for the defender. Of course. With my phrase "I do not know if DRM is worse than dividing the FP by two," I wanted to introduce the question about what's worse for the attacker: 1.- Shoot against a target under the protection of the "?" 2.- Shoot against a target without the protection of the "?" but it has the bonus of one or several DRM. Look at the image that I attached. You already know the Infantry Fire Table, of course. The example I am taking is an attack with 24 FP, that is, an important attack, although not massive. If we assume a very likely DR = 7, we have that the attack, without any influence, would get a 3MC. This same attack, but considered as Area Fire (objective below the protection of a counter "?"), would only get 1MC. That is, to achieve the same result of 1MC it would be necessary that the attack against the same objective had a DRM +3. It's not an exceptional DRM but it's important. But to obtain a worse result for the attacker (NMC) it would be necessary that the target is entitled to a DRM +5, which now yes is an exceptional situation. If we do this same analysis with a lower FP attack, for example 4 FP, the panorama is no longer so obvious,... but, making an attack with low FP, and fail, would be less frustrating than doing with 24 FP ... [image]local://upfiles/56084/66998774033A45AB8BBEFD4CF2616D84.jpg[/image]

Zovs -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 7:43:54 PM)
With ASL everything is situational dependent. I have played ASL since 1986/7 and as the saying goes “there is more way to skin a cat” (don’t let my wife hear that, lol.). There have been many times when I have had to shoot at ? guys, however sometimes movement is the best offense, and sacrificing a half squad to strip concealment is always an option. For me positive DRMs is not worrisome, you just have to manipulate the right things in place to overcome the problem.

asl3d -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 9:03:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs With ASL everything is situational dependent. I have played ASL since 1986/7 and as the saying goes “there is more way to skin a cat” (don’t let my wife hear that, lol.). There have been many times when I have had to shoot at ? guys, however sometimes movement is the best offense, and sacrificing a half squad to strip concealment is always an option. For me positive DRMs is not worrisome, you just have to manipulate the right things in place to overcome the problem. Yes, I totally agree with what you say. ASL, despite its great dynamism, is a complex game. Play ASL with a lot of counters, one over another, and over another, and over another ..., in too small hexes (ASL Deluxe is another world), with an immense volume of rules that, at least for me, is difficult to remember, not even the most elementary, is hard work. Computers have largely solved all these difficulties. For this reason I have become addicted to Heroes of Stalingrad and also, although to a lesser extent, in Tigers on the Hunt. Regarding your wife, you can count on my absolute discretion, of course.

Michael T -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 9:27:05 PM)
All this talk about ASL, makes me long for a true PC version. Someone please make it so.

Zovs -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 9:52:52 PM)
Well there is VASL, it’s too complex a game for a pure PC to handle, it takes two consenting persons.

Michael T -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/23/2019 10:44:51 PM)
VASL is a pain IMO. I would much rather a FTF opponent. For me the PC is for purpose built PC games. Vassal is just plain painful. Trying to debate a rule interpretation via emails is horrible. But I believe any board game could be programmed. Why not? It's just code. The limit is time needed to build a PC version of ASL versus the payoff at the end. I would say that the only reason ASL has not been coded (apart from copyright) is that the cost to create it would not be recouped as it is so complex. But I live in hope. Apparently Tigers on the Hunt is very close to ASL. Though I haven't tried it myself since it has no multiplayer capacity apart from hotseat.

wodin -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/24/2019 1:29:47 PM)
PC ASL....hmm you never know😉

MrsWargamer -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/24/2019 3:07:40 PM)
Sometimes that which is done in a board game must be done in the board game due to the reality of physicality. A ? counter in ASL is required, otherwise you can see what's under it. In ASL if you move a unit at all, and it might trigger a response from the opponent, you must then wait for the opponent to respond. Tedius as hell of course. It works for a board game, and if the opponent is sitting there sipping a beer while you take your actions, there is no need for concern "Nope, no reaction, next move". It's simple. The trick for a computer game, is to have an AI capable of making as decent a choice as a human opponent. Will it react the the ? counter logically? If I move a unit and it looks like a sucker move, does the AI realize it? ASL can be a nuisance managing all the stacks of counters. A computer game doesn't require tweezers and good hand skills. But no one wants to play a good game against an AI that's a total moron. "Oh wow, I beat the moron..... again..... how satisfying." Just because the AI never argues with you about the rules, doesn't make it a better option. Some board games master some designs so much better than computer wargames, and I'm left to wonder "why haven't the computer designs at least done it as well as the board games?" In Advanced Third Reich, sub warfare in the Atlantic is abstracted. There's no obvious subs to see to cherry pick. So far, all of the grand strategy designs I have seen, make a complete mess out of simulating the war in the Atlantic. Why can't they at least equal A3R? Computer wargames deal with FOW nicely. You don't see what you wouldn't know about. I've played double blind wargames before. Not impossible, but sure not easy once you get past 20 units. Computers certainly rule here nicely. WEGO is the only really cool method of turn use I've seen over the years which I wish was used more often. Our computers are so much more powerful than we wargamers require in most cases. I wish it was used more often. I've seen some computer wargames which would have been massively better if done with WEGO. Battle Academy done as WEGO would be incredible. Panzer Corps as WEGO would totally rock. But as IGOUGO they are vulnerable to gamey tactics which are rarely simulations of realistic combat. I don't know if something like Gary's designs can be WEGO, sooo many units to move. But it seems like some of our monsters manage it.

sPzAbt653 -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/24/2019 3:31:48 PM)
quote: In Advanced Third Reich, sub warfare in the Atlantic is abstracted. There's no obvious subs to see to cherry pick. So far, all of the grand strategy designs I have seen, make a complete mess out of simulating the war in the Atlantic. Why can't they at least equal A3R? Exactly ! And 3R even had Naval Interception, something I have not seen since then ! Even Global War [SPI 1975] had a Naval and Convoy System that worked, and it was simple! The three most recent Grand Strategy games I have purchased make me wonder what they were thinking because the Naval Models, sorry to say, are nonsense. At least one of them figured out how to make subs go under the water !!

Kuokkanen -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/24/2019 3:50:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 The three most recent Grand Strategy games I have purchased make me wonder what they were thinking because the Naval Models, sorry to say, are nonsense. At least one of them figured out how to make subs go under the water !! I know that one: Battle Isle 3

asl3d -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/24/2019 4:11:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer ... ASL can be a nuisance managing all the stacks of counters. A computer game doesn't require tweezers and good hand skills. But no one wants to play a good game against an AI that's a total moron. "Oh wow, I beat the moron..... again..... how satisfying." Just because the AI never argues with you about the rules, doesn't make it a better option. ... To win a moron player, first this player has to be Intelligent. Computers are not intelligent machines, although the solver that controls their style of play is mistakenly called AI. It's Artificial, yes, but not Intelligent. They are very good and fast calculating, but they are not intelligents, at least for now ... Before the friends who are dedicated to programming computers get angry, I must specify my words. Humans design algorithms that simulate human intelligence, and this is very complex and difficult. So, how much more refined and complete the set of algorithms that govern a "seemingly" intelligent behavior, more intelligent the game style of the AI will appear. You have a testing ground in Heroes of Stalingrad. Play some of the scenarios of the "Heroes and Leaders mod" and tell me if the AI is moron .....

Kuokkanen -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/24/2019 6:49:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer The trick for a computer game, is to have an AI capable of making as decent a choice as a human opponent. Will it react the the ? counter logically? If I move a unit and it looks like a sucker move, does the AI realize it? Totally not! It moves stack of doom to crush my lone scout while totally ignoring nearby stack.

asl3d -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/24/2019 7:18:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Michael T VASL is a pain IMO. I would much rather a FTF opponent. For me the PC is for purpose built PC games. Vassal is just plain painful. Trying to debate a rule interpretation via emails is horrible. I have never played VASL, but reading what you say I imagine the worst. I believe that Tigers on the Hunt and Heroes of Stalingrad are an admirable attempt to create a computerized version of ASL. Neither of the two games are an exact replica of ASL, but I have to admit that their designers have done a very worthy job. But, to arrive at a good product always requires multiple intermediate attempts that come closer and closer to excellence. There's always a great work of multiple human teams. Here we will not have an exception. For example, in Heroes of Stalingrad the phase’s system is ignored within a game turn. I am sure that many friends, who love ASL, will see this decision as an unforgivable sin. However, I think that the decision to replace the phases with the impulses is an advance. I don't want to say that the phases system doesn't work, especially after more than 40 years of existence. But, despite this overwhelming fact, I still think that it is an unnatural mechanics, that moves away from the perception of how to develop a real combat with small tactical units. That's, it works, yes, but it isn't credible. TotH and HoS simplify ASL, sometimes insolently, but not to the point of causing a catastrophe in the game system, and much less in the concept of the game. I'm delighted with Heroes of Stalingrad, and that's why I voted Heroes of Stalingrad in this thread.

RangerJoe -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/24/2019 7:19:48 PM)
quote: Totally not! It moves stack of doom to crush my lone scout while totally ignoring nearby stack. That is because, when properly used, the Scout is much more deadly.

Zovs -> RE: Which wargame has done it best? (6/24/2019 9:53:54 PM)
VASL is really not that bad at all, in fact is nearly identical to playing face to face when you use a voice program like Skype or Zoom. It has been what has sustained the ASL community for 20 years. There will be no ASL PC game unless it was done and created by MMP the copyright holders of all things ASL. I have seen Tigers on the Hunt and is is definitely NOT ASL. I have played ASL for over 30 years, been to quite a few tournaments and to date only VASL is close as a supplement and aide. If you doubt my assertion then you don’t understand the depths and complexities of chapter A-D let alone E, F and G. ASL is a dynamic two person multi turn two player interactive war game. No computer as of today has the logic and reasoning required to play the game. Some humans don’t even qualify, it takes one part OCD, one part geek, one part war gamer and two parts crazy, that is not even to master the game. But it’s fun as heck with two blokes.

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