RE: OT: Corona virus (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition



Message

Lowpe -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 1:57:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

You know the argument about the lockdown causing secondary health problems?

I think we are there. There is anxiety breaking out all over. 8 year olds with insomnia. The moms calling in worried about their kids look like THEY need a psychiatrist. Palpitations, severe reflux with esophagitis. I am handing out omeprazole and famotidine like Christmas candies. I can't find anyone to do talk therapy so I can pass the baton a bit. The health system is suffering staggering economic losses, mostly because of loss of elective procedures. We have one medical assistant furloughed, the office RN who used to do the phone triage is farmed out to do COVID testing. Everybody wants a f'ing COVID blood test because they had a fever in January. I just want to get on sailing yacht and sail to Papaete or something...and I get seasick easy.


I have 2nd hand anecdotal information that one suicide hotline group in LA has had an 8,000 percent increase in calls. Not sure I buy that big of an increase...but I am sure there has been a substantial increase. PSA on radio for help run constantly here in PHila, and we even got a robocall for one.



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 1:59:10 PM)

Sammy, thanks for the thoughtful reply. Here are a couple of my thoughts with regard to yours:

1. It is difficult for any politician to say that economy outweighs death toll. Opponents and press immediately attack - "trading lives for money." That's what the famous The Atlantic headline was doing and that's explicitly happened across the country with respect to Republican governors who have eased countermeasures. While we, as a community, may disagree with with what one side does or another side does, or while we may favor one course of action over another, most of us probably agree that nearly all people involved are doing their best to make the best decisions possible, weighing competing interests in a complex and novel environment. But when your opponents bellow, "He's trading lives for money!" or "She's trying to help her business cronies!" it becomes exceedingly unpleasant and difficult.

2. So choice two is the preference. As noted in my previous post (that you were replying to), I certainly see merit in easing countermeasures in many jurisdictions. I wouldn't in New York City but I would in northwest Georgia or west Texas or South Dakota. Germany, Denmark, Austria, Italy and many other countries are doing the same.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


I think there are two potential approaches to the lifting of lockdown measures.

The first approach would be to be explicit in saying that the damage being done to the economy/public finances is becoming so great that it now outweighs the 'worst case' death toll as predicted by the more pessimistic forecasters. I don't know where the US economy is at. From a UK perspective my guess is that we have capacity in the public finances for maybe one more 3 month lockdown (with jobs/businesses protected through government support) before the money runs out or the debt becomes unmanageable. If that is the case then I think the choice facing our government from that perspective is whether we use that 3 month capacity now to try and squash things right down or whether to start lifting things and hold on to the option so that it can be used in the autumn/winter when health services are most at risk of becoming overwhelmed.

The second approach is to be saying that actually the data is suggesting that it is now 'safe' to lift the restrictions without significant increases in mortality. There is certainly data that is looking very positive and expert opinions reflecting that. But for me at least I would not be comfortable saying that it is 'safe' to lift restrictions until there is more of an explanation of what happened in Bergamo & Lombardy/NYC/NJ/London (and probably within 2 or 3 weeks the UK as a whole) & Madrid and why those very high mortality rates will not be repeated elsewhere. I.e. you need to be able to identify why things were bad in those places and why things were not bad in Sweden where they did not lockdown and be able to demonstrate that most places share characteristics with the latter and not the former. I don't think we are quite at that point yet and a lifting of restrictions would be in hope of it being safe rather than expectation. Although I haven't watched the interview Lowpe posted yet - that might give some insight into why the researcher concerned believes things went so badly in some places and why that will not be repeated elsewhere.





Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:02:54 PM)

In late April, Germany began easing countermeasures and there were concerns about increases in new cases. The bar chart shows the situation there, as of May 5. On a nationwide basis, at least, easing hasn't resulted in a marked increase (yet).

[image]local://upfiles/8143/CB7346B70C1141BAB49949B8D7A67D39.jpg[/image]



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:16:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Sammy, thanks for the thoughtful reply. Here are a couple of my thoughts with regard to yours:

1. It is difficult for any politician to say that economy outweighs death toll. Opponents and press immediately attack - "trading lives for money." That's what the famous The Atlantic headline was doing and that's explicitly happened across the country with respect to Republican governors who have eased countermeasures. While we, as a community, may disagree with with what one side does or another side does, or while we may favor one course of action over another, most of us probably agree that nearly all people involved are doing their best to make the best decisions possible, weighing competing interests in a complex and novel environment. But when your opponents bellow, "He's trading lives for money!" or "She's trying to help her business cronies!" it becomes exceedingly unpleasant and difficult.

2. So choice two is the preference. As noted in my previous post (that you were replying to), I certainly see merit in easing countermeasures in many jurisdictions. I wouldn't in New York City but I would in northwest Georgia or west Texas or South Dakota. Germany, Denmark, Austria, Italy and many other countries are doing the same.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


I think there are two potential approaches to the lifting of lockdown measures.

The first approach would be to be explicit in saying that the damage being done to the economy/public finances is becoming so great that it now outweighs the 'worst case' death toll as predicted by the more pessimistic forecasters. I don't know where the US economy is at. From a UK perspective my guess is that we have capacity in the public finances for maybe one more 3 month lockdown (with jobs/businesses protected through government support) before the money runs out or the debt becomes unmanageable. If that is the case then I think the choice facing our government from that perspective is whether we use that 3 month capacity now to try and squash things right down or whether to start lifting things and hold on to the option so that it can be used in the autumn/winter when health services are most at risk of becoming overwhelmed.

The second approach is to be saying that actually the data is suggesting that it is now 'safe' to lift the restrictions without significant increases in mortality. There is certainly data that is looking very positive and expert opinions reflecting that. But for me at least I would not be comfortable saying that it is 'safe' to lift restrictions until there is more of an explanation of what happened in Bergamo & Lombardy/NYC/NJ/London (and probably within 2 or 3 weeks the UK as a whole) & Madrid and why those very high mortality rates will not be repeated elsewhere. I.e. you need to be able to identify why things were bad in those places and why things were not bad in Sweden where they did not lockdown and be able to demonstrate that most places share characteristics with the latter and not the former. I don't think we are quite at that point yet and a lifting of restrictions would be in hope of it being safe rather than expectation. Although I haven't watched the interview Lowpe posted yet - that might give some insight into why the researcher concerned believes things went so badly in some places and why that will not be repeated elsewhere.





It's an unenviable situation for them to be in. What is worse politically - to be explicit about what you are doing (i.e. saving the economy from melting down) or to say that you are lifting measures because you think it is safe to do so only to be 'proved wrong' and be blamed for a loss of life that in reality was inevitable.

To be clear I am not saying that a 'second wave' is inevitably the outcome. Hopefully the more positive predictions will be proved right. But they remain predictions also. I think that everywhere lifting restrictions is doing so due to economic necessity and the politicians are gambling their reputations on the more positive predictions being correct. I'd rather them be more honest in saying that they don't really know what will happen but they are taking the best (and perhaps only) course of action available in the economic circumstances.




Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:20:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In late April, Germany began easing countermeasures and there were concerns about increases in new cases. The bar chart shows the situation there, as of May 5. On a nationwide basis, at least, easing hasn't resulted in a marked increase (yet).



Apologies I did touch on that point in an edit of my previous post which has now moved pages. Very briefly - my understanding is that it is a 2-4 week period between infection and symptoms becoming severe enough to require hospital treatment. So unless a country is testing lots of asymptomatic/low level symptoms the effects of lifting the lockdown will not be immediately observed. I think we are just hitting that point now for Denmark which were a little bit ahead. For most of the rest of Europe we'll need to be a little more patient.



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:21:46 PM)

Have you found them not to be honest? From what I've seen, most of them are, though their words are often twisted or their motives impugned by opponents and much of the press. The Federalist article about the South Dakota governor (link posted late yesterday by Lowpe, a page or two back) offers lots of examples. Most of them are saying words to this effect, "There are concerns about re-opening but we think we can manage it given x, y, z."



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:25:36 PM)

Yeah, there is a lag (that's why I said "no increase (yet).") But Denmark is three weeks into easing.

Georgia is nearing two weeks and so far nothing in my region (the northwest area). Both cases and mortalities amazingly flat for two weeks now. That may change, though I really hope not. I'm watching that very carefully. There has been a spike in cases in northeast Georgia, where a poultry processing plant has been hard hit.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

Apologies I did touch on that point in an edit of my previous post which has now moved pages. Very briefly - my understanding is that it is a 2-4 week period between infection and symptoms becoming severe enough to require hospital treatment. So unless a country is testing lots of asymptomatic/low level symptoms the effects of lifting the lockdown will not be immediately observed. I think we are just hitting that point now for Denmark which were a little bit ahead. For most of the rest of Europe we'll need to be a little more patient.




Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:33:10 PM)

Here's one example of how opponents attack:

"Republicans are not here to protect you or your family,” said Garcia. “Governor Abbott finally admitted that prematurely opening Texas is going to lead to more cases and more deaths. Republicans are putting our families’ lives at risk so their billionaire donors can get richer. What Texas Republicans say in public yet again doesn’t match what they say in private.

“He knew deaths would happen by reopening Texas and now he needs to own it,” said Garcia.

Source: https://www.thedailybeast.com/texas-governor-greg-abbott-admits-dangers-of-reopening-state-on-private-call-with-lawmakers

I'm not very familiar with Abbot. I don't know if he's smart or not, ethical or not, cautious or reckless. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on those issues since he's the leader of a major state and since most people do try to do what's right. But I find the attack by his opponent loathsome. "Republicans are putting our families' lives at risk so their billionaire donors can get richer." Attacks go both ways in politics, but this kind of stuff is really bad.



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:37:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Have you found them not to be honest? From what I've seen, most of them are, though their words are often twisted or their motives impugned by opponents and much of the press. The Federalist article about the South Dakota governor (link posted late yesterday by Lowpe, a page or two back) offers lots of examples. Most of them are saying words to this effect, "There are concerns about re-opening but we think we can manage it given x, y, z."


Maybe honest is the wrong word yes. 'Open' might be a better word. I'm not 'plugged in' to what is being said on the ground day in day out by politicians in the US but my impression is that the message is very much "we've coped so far and so we'll continue to do so".

To be honest expecting them to present it in the way I've suggested is more of my own 'Utopian aspiration' of how I would like politicians to communicate rather than my understanding of how they need to communicate in reality. The 'we don't know what is going to happen but we have no choice' message is not exactly a political banner to get people behind. So what I'm saying is not really a criticism.

All of the above applies to politicians on both side of the Atlantic not just US ones. The only one I've been really impressed with in terms of communication is Merkel. Whatever one might think of her politically her academic science background has really shone through I think.




Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:42:17 PM)

Probably most of what you're reading in UK about the US is filtered through the US press. If the press isn't biased (or repeating info largely from biased sources), then the reports you're reading should be accurate. If, as some contend, the press has a major bias, the reports you're reading probably have a decided slant. You know how I feel on that subject.




Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:45:24 PM)

Netherlands had another nice drop in mortality (26). Belgium had a huge increase (323) but that was due to an adjustment in how hospital cases were counted from late March forwards. IE, those deaths would actually be spread out over about five weeks.



RangerJoe -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:46:16 PM)

To open or not. Maybe more COVID-19 deaths or more other deaths due to health problems not treated, mental health issues, and so on. Some of those may last for lifetimes, even for the children.

Of course, any country that has excess money to buy up Western debt would like the economies shuttered so public debt can be bought up as well as private companies be bought cheaply.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 2:57:15 PM)

Lockdown in perpetuity is an election strategy. Make your opponent take the necessary first step and then Monday Morning Quarterback the guy. The COVID virus is a gift from Gaia to opposition parties.

Your average public school 3rd grader could see that having the federal government borrow money and send out checks in the mail is not a practical long term strategy. If it were one would think someone might have thought of it already...oh wait...they HAVE thought of it and we have a 100 year track record of universal failure.

The economy is not a plaything of investment bankers and pinheads at the NYT. It's what FEEDS everyone.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:00:45 PM)

The alternative to reopening the economy is a few more months of cutting our own hair and then heading out to the mailbox for a green check and wave and secretly giggle at the neighbors mullet.



obvert -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:07:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's one example of how opponents attack:

"Republicans are not here to protect you or your family,” said Garcia. “Governor Abbott finally admitted that prematurely opening Texas is going to lead to more cases and more deaths. Republicans are putting our families’ lives at risk so their billionaire donors can get richer. What Texas Republicans say in public yet again doesn’t match what they say in private.

“He knew deaths would happen by reopening Texas and now he needs to own it,” said Garcia.

Source: https://www.thedailybeast.com/texas-governor-greg-abbott-admits-dangers-of-reopening-state-on-private-call-with-lawmakers

I'm not very familiar with Abbot. I don't know if he's smart or not, ethical or not, cautious or reckless. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on those issues since he's the leader of a major state and since most people do try to do what's right. But I find the attack by his opponent loathsome. "Republicans are putting our families' lives at risk so their billionaire donors can get richer." Attacks go both ways in politics, but this kind of stuff is really bad.


Well, here is a different take on that article.

The quote you used is not from an expert or anyone associated with the paper, it's from a democratic adversary, and it comes right at the end. This is a quote from a call Abbot made with congress. Doesn't sound too good when you read it out, especially if you're vulnerable or have loved ones who are, as many do.

“How do we know reopening businesses won’t result in faster spread of more cases of COVID-19?” Abbott asked during a Friday afternoon phone call with members of the state legislature and Congress. “Listen, the fact of the matter is pretty much every scientific and medical report shows that whenever you have a reopening—whether you want to call it a reopening of businesses or of just a reopening of society—in the aftermath of something like this, it actually will lead to an increase and spread. It’s almost ipso facto.”

“The more that you have people out there, the greater the possibility is for transmission,” Abbott said on the call, which a spokesperson confirmed was authentic on Tuesday. “The goal never has been to get transmission down to zero.”

The article continued by saying that this was very different than the public message. Understandably.

This is a more positive take in a public message. Sounds reasonable, unless you've heard the quote from the call to the congress.

“This may come up in answer to a future question, but the main thing that we look for—and this is the primary number that I’ve seen doctors and epidemiologists use—is that what we want to see is a reduction in the percentage of people who test positive,” said Abbott. “If we can continue to achieve that, that means that we have COVID-19 under the control that we need. And that’s what we’re looking to achieve.”

This rag is outside your usual target zone for these posts. I'd never heard of it before. Here is something to see how it stands up to examination.

[image]local://upfiles/37283/FFA4F7AC64774163A44043FF38EA34F9.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:21:58 PM)

I read the whole thing. I've also read other articles and understand the point Abbott (and most everybody else) has been making. Yes, there are issues with easing countermeasures. We think they are manageable and we think it's worth doing. I have no issue with that position given the complexities of the situation.

The only issue I have is with how his opponent characterized the governor. You didn't denounce that, but I'm pretty sure you don't find it acceptable.



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:24:43 PM)

Excerpts from an article in today's Atlanta Journal-Consitution. The writer/editors are trying to present information in a straightforward fashion but make a couple of mistakes. Understandable but likely to be read and spread.

https://www.ajc.com/news/northeast-georgia-new-covid-hot-spot-emerges/ZgbPAH5CHeVQdDGy0KiJUN/

[image]local://upfiles/8143/1183DFA909804AC8A212B2BA590ED2B3.jpg[/image]



Kull -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:24:57 PM)

Out here in far west texas, el paso is a democrate stronghold and always has been. But it's hot and getting hotter (s/b 100+ tomorrow) and you can tell that people are completely sick of this. I had to get a car battery battery yesterday and the parking lots were full, and people were out everywhere. Most of those shopping wore masks but a good 20% did not and nobody said a word. Close to zero percent of those out walking (and there were many) are not wearing masks, and we have the same draconian rules most of the country has (the local govt is trying to pretend we aren't in Texas) but it will lead to riots if they try to enforce it.

Maybe the nanny states can keep the lockdowns going for a while, but people are not going to tolerate it for long, especially as the hot weather spreads north. Oh, and there's roughly a million people here, 1000 cases, and 16 deaths, every single one over 50 and with underlying conditions. For some people this is a really bad flu. For most it's a nothing burger.



MakeeLearn -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:25:08 PM)

Coronavirus: White House plans to disband virus task force
7 hours ago


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52553829



"US President Donald Trump has confirmed the White House coronavirus task force will be winding down, with Vice-President Mike Pence suggesting it could be disbanded within weeks.

"We are bringing our country back," Mr Trump said during a visit to a mask-manufacturing factory in Arizona.

New confirmed infections per day in the US currently top 20,000, and daily deaths exceed 1,000.

US health officials warn the virus may spread as businesses begin to reopen."





Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:27:07 PM)

Kull, good to see you! You haven't posted in here in about six weeks, I think. Glad to see you back.



HansBolter -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:27:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


The quote you used is not from an expert or anyone associated with the paper, it's from a democratic adversary, and it comes right at the end.



He very CLEARLY identified the quote as coming from an "opponent".

Why did you feel the need to attempt to 'qualify' it further?





MakeeLearn -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:27:44 PM)

Your genes could determine whether coronavirus puts you in the hospital — and we’re starting to unravel which ones matter
May 5, 2020


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-genes-could-determine-whether-coronavirus-puts-you-in-the-hospital-and-were-starting-to-unravel-which-ones-matter-2020-05-05


"The part of the alarm system that we tested is called the human leukocyte antigen system, or HLA. Each person has multiple alleles of the genes that make up their HLA type. Each allele codes for a different HLA protein. These proteins are the sensors of the alarm system and find intruders by binding to various peptides — chains of amino acids that make up parts of the coronavirus — that are foreign to the body.

Once an HLA protein binds to a virus or piece of a virus, it transports the intruder to the cell surface. This “marks” the cell as infected and from there the immune system will kill the cell."



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:27:58 PM)

There have been all kinds of changes since this news came out yesterday. Various reports that it won't be disbanded or fully disbanded or that something else or some others will succeed it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Coronavirus: White House plans to disband virus task force
7 hours ago


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52553829



"US President Donald Trump has confirmed the White House coronavirus task force will be winding down, with Vice-President Mike Pence suggesting it could be disbanded within weeks.

"We are bringing our country back," Mr Trump said during a visit to a mask-manufacturing factory in Arizona.

New confirmed infections per day in the US currently top 20,000, and daily deaths exceed 1,000.

US health officials warn the virus may spread as businesses begin to reopen."







MakeeLearn -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:34:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There have been all kinds of changes since this news came out yesterday. Various reports that it won't be disbanded or fully disbanded or that something else or some others will succeed it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Coronavirus: White House plans to disband virus task force
7 hours ago


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52553829



"US President Donald Trump has confirmed the White House coronavirus task force will be winding down, with Vice-President Mike Pence suggesting it could be disbanded within weeks.

"We are bringing our country back," Mr Trump said during a visit to a mask-manufacturing factory in Arizona.

New confirmed infections per day in the US currently top 20,000, and daily deaths exceed 1,000.

US health officials warn the virus may spread as businesses begin to reopen."








Yes, a reformation of forces - "And we'll have a different group probably set up for that.""

But the title plants a seed.



HansBolter -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:35:04 PM)

These initiatives would seem to be a good start on the road of "making them pay", unlike those seeking to file law suits:

Trump ‘Turbocharging’ Initiative To Remove China From Global Supply Chain, Create New Group

https://www.dailywire.com/news/trump-turbocharging-initiative-to-remove-china-from-global-supply-chain-create-new-group


Report: India Offers Land Pool Twice the Size of Luxembourg to Companies Fleeing China

https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/05/05/report-india-offers-land-pool-twice-size-luxembourg-companies-fleeing-china/



Canoerebel -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:38:23 PM)

MakeeLearn, yes, you're right.



obvert -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:39:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I read the whole thing. I've also read other articles and understand the point Abbott (and most everybody else) has been making. Yes, there are issues with easing countermeasures. We think they are manageable and we think it's worth doing. I have no issue with that position given the complexities of the situation.

The only issue I have is with how his opponent characterized the governor. You didn't denounce that, but I'm pretty sure you don't find it acceptable.


Without the context of the behind the scenes conversation made public, it's hard to understand the point the opponent is making. When you see it and have read the whole thing, it makes much more sense.

Why denounce something that is obviously a targeted political statement? That happens on both sides as you point out. We don't have to look far to see that.

The important point is to see both sides, and that is what journalism did in this case by clearly identifying parties, giving context, and showing each position. If this was a really smart and biased take on this story they would have left out the opponent's comment. That just gives anyone on the other side a way to divert from the actual situation to focus on the so-called "loathsome" critique.




Kull -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:43:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Kull, good to see you! You haven't posted in here in about six weeks, I think. Glad to see you back.


Thanks man, all is well with the family. It felt like I had something worthwhile to add in terms of pulling data and trying to analyze what was really going on in Italy - the hardest hit place at the time with data which seemed reliable. Especially since the trajectory was heading up and the projections were calling for an apocalypse.

But since then it's become apparent that ALL the data we are seeing - including deaths - is being manipulated (and therefore unreliable), and the projections are little more than dart board estimates. Especially now that we're beginning to see the first antibody studies and those are showing how far the true mortality rate deviates from the "official" numbers. And that's without accounting for the fact that perhaps 1/2 or more of the Covid deaths would have been classified as something else in the case of EVERY other dieseas.

When some politicians are deliberately preventing doctors from prescribing helpful medications and even mandating that Covid patients be inserted into unprepared Nursing homes, well, you know this isn't about a disease any longer.



Lowpe -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:44:53 PM)

Obvert,

Newsguard, interesting browser addon. I did a little research on them...

Here is a site I frequent, oh, this is a perspective bias tool:

Homepage
https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-ratings


For their review of the daily beast
https://www.allsides.com/news-source/daily-beast-media-bias



MakeeLearn -> RE: OT: Corona virus (5/6/2020 3:46:30 PM)

Michigan Health Center Workers Stage “Fake Patients” In COVID19 Testing Line For CBS News
May 6, 2020


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQWRCECbN-Y&feature=youtu.be


Video




Page: <<   < prev  224 225 [226] 227 228   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.84375